How Did it Come to This? (Part 2)
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Peace be with you Ayman,
First, let me commend you on the excellent articles and thank you for sharing your learning and research with others.
As far as your rendering of "Jinn", I agree with the Concept you have put forth. I think the stumbling block is the word Fantasy and/or Imagination.
I think a more accurate wording would run along the lines of "One's Dark-Side or One's Darker Half". (Like it or not, everyone has a Dark-Side).
May I suggest the term Alter Ego? I went back and read part 2 of your article and subsituted Alter Ego and Hidden-Self in place of Fantasies. It really seems to fit to me.
For me salat is a two pronged thing - physical and non-physical. The good thing with the small details of the quran regarding what it is, is that it can fluctuate between the two as the needs of the individual dictate. The best point would be to find the middle road - the median point of the two, and this cannot be prescribed because it depends upon the individual. Many people argue here that it cannot be physical. I disagree with the phrase 'cannot', as this implies that the pinnacle of understanding regarding this has been achieved for all humanity - uncertainty is the best policy. It is certainty that leads to sects forming.
BEAUTIFUL!!
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace damon and all. Yes,what darcus wrote was beautiful. ) The point you made about aymans concept being right and the stumbling block being the words used is interesting. If we combine darcus' comment with yours,we could say the concept(which is probably the most important thing.) is agreed upon,but the detail/methodology/words may be different. If we could stick to this kind of tolerance then we might not have the continous back and forth 'haggling' on salat,hajj,code 19,hadith etc,etc.. The details sometimes work different(or not at all.) for different people,the true concepts can work for everyone. Salat is meant to keep away from bad deeds(true concept?),how you do it can be variable with the individual and the context.(different methods and details.)
peace all. -
Peace sister Marie,
It is good to hear from you.
You put nicely the link between, jinn, ja/n, jinna and majnoon in the light of the Reading, thanks for the opening eyes shock
Keep good works.
My two cents
One can seek refuge in the Lord from the evil of alwaswas alkhannasi (1144).
Muhammad Ali's translation
114?4. From the evil of the whisperings of
the slinking (devil),
Min sharri alwaswasi al khannasi (a)a The word khannas is derived from khanasa, meaning he held back or hung back, and also he hid himself (LL), and al-khannas is the devil (aljinn), because he retires or shrinks or hides himself (LL).
From alwaswas, there is the verb 'waswasa'. In the Reading, this verb is mainly used for shaytan/Iblis/jinn (720, 20120), nafs (5016) and alwaswas alkhannasi (1144-5),
From the verses above, one can deduce that shaytan-jinn is intrinseque to our nafs, he acts through our hearts. The sequence beteween 1145 and 1146 could imply that the jinn is the hidden side of mankind.
Thank you sister for the excellent observation. I agree.
Shaytan/jinn is described as the companion for the rebellious ones. Shaytan leads to spend the money to show-off to the people (43, invent for the Lord sons and daughters (6100), repel away from remembering God and from salat (591), promises poverty and orders to evil (226, lurks in ambush in the Straight Path (716-17 ).
alnnajwa/ conspiracy is from shaytan (5810)
covert actions is from shaytan (7200-201)
intoxicants and games are the work of shaytan (591)
to kill without justice is the work of shaytan (2815)When Adam and his mate ate from the tree, this is their desire to become controllers or immortal which lead them to disobey the God (720, 20120).
When Iblis refused to be with those who submitted to mankind, then it is upon us to make his progeny obedient to us.
There is so much progress in our understanding that is enabled by a better understanding of what "jinn" means. I can see that you have already started to put some of the other pieces together.
Lately, I have been thinking about some of the concepts in the great reading, for example, the extensive use of allegories. Now, allegories could be kind of considered as talking to our "imagination/fantasy". We are warned in 37 not to follow the allegorical signs in the great reading in the same way that we are told not to follow the fantasy (3029). We are also told in 37 about the judging signs. In a way, the judging signs is what we use to control the allegorical ones. It is as if the great reading mirrors us because we use our judgment to control our fantasy.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Zlatan,
Says who? D I have come to learn and VERIFY that our thoughts are not part of "us". They work independent of "us", although we have the power to take control of them. Sometmes they come to us "out of the blue". If you sit back and just watch your thoughts, you will verify just like I did that we do not really orchestrate the thoughts that come into your sphere of awareness. Regarding the term "being", all of creation is but a manifestation of the ONE being, the SUPREME being. So thoughts are not who we are, so they are seperate from what we call "I".
Brilliant observation!
It is great to see you back on the forum. )
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Damon,
First, let me commend you on the excellent articles and thank you for sharing your learning and research with others.
As far as your rendering of "Jinn", I agree with the Concept you have put forth. I think the stumbling block is the word Fantasy and/or Imagination.
I think a more accurate wording would run along the lines of "One's Dark-Side or One's Darker Half". (Like it or not, everyone has a Dark-Side).
May I suggest the term Alter Ego? I went back and read part 2 of your article and subsituted Alter Ego and Hidden-Self in place of Fantasies. It really seems to fit to me.
Thank you for your kindness brother. Whatever good is from The God so I don't deserve credit but I do accept credit for any mistakes. )
I agree with you and what you are saying about "dark side" or "alter ego" is very much in line with what I am saying. If we think about what drives our "dark-side" or "alter ego", you will find that it is our fantasy. If we have exceeding in rebellion fantasies then our "alter ego" or "dark side" will also be exceeding in rebellion.
All the understandings presented here are not that far apart.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Enquirer,
Peace damon and all. Yes,what darcus wrote was beautiful. ) The point you made about aymans concept being right and the stumbling block being the words used is interesting. If we combine darcus' comment with yours,we could say the concept(which is probably the most important thing.) is agreed upon,but the detail/methodology/words may be different. If we could stick to this kind of tolerance then we might not have the continous back and forth 'haggling' on salat,hajj,code 19,hadith etc,etc.. The details sometimes work different(or not at all.) for different people,the true concepts can work for everyone. Salat is meant to keep away from bad deeds(true concept?),how you do it can be variable with the individual and the context.(different methods and details.)
I agree. We should focus on the purpose as opposed to the form. Whatever method best accomplishes the purpose is the one we should use.
Take "salat" for example, it is whatever works best to accomplish the purpose of reminding us of The God and keep us away from bad deeds.
Same thing with "hajj". It is whatever works best for any and all people (2227) to assemble in safety to witness benefits and remember The God (222 at a place where no partners are setup with The God (2226).
Same thing with Code 19. We are clearly told in 7431 that the count of the guardians of hell is nothing except an affliction/trial for the unappreciative. This is its ONLY purpose. Everything else is a result of it being an affliction/trial for the unappreciative not a result of it directly.
Same thing with "hadith"/sayings. We shouldn't have faith in any "hadith" after The God and His signs (456). Thus, all "hadith"/sayings should be equally evaluated. There should be no special treatment for my "hadith"/saying or that of Bukhari or that alleged to be of the prophet.
Peace,
Ayman
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This thread is the most bizzare thing that I have ever come across.
The play on words is just .... fantastic.The ironic thing here is that you are indulging your own fantasies of what you want your
God to say to you, whilst describing it at the same time.Are you guys bored, is that it? Looking for new ways to amuse yourselves.
Jinns were a pretty simple concept to grasp until you guys muddelled it all up.
So this Iblis chap was God's fanatasy. He made up the whole thing. Then this fantasy spoke to God asking
for respite. Of course Solomon was even more crazy because his fantasies moved physical objects.Also, I can see why Muhammed was called majnoon, he fantasized a group of jinns listening to him, and later these
fantasies went back to other fanatasies and spoke to them, warning them. Actually they had quite a long chat.Here's a question for you. If no one sees two fantasies talking, do they make a sound?
But sincerely I do say this, why do you confuse issues and enjoy debating on them. Aren't you the ones
seeking refuge with your fanatises.peace.
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Peace brother Ayman, all,
Lately, I have been thinking about some of the concepts in the great reading, for example, the extensive use of allegories. Now, allegories could be kind of considered as talking to our "imagination/fantasy". We are warned in 37 not to follow the allegorical signs in the great reading in the same way that we are told not to follow the fantasy (3029). We are also told in 37 about the judging signs. In a way, the judging signs is what we use to control the allegorical ones. It is as if the great reading mirrors us because we use our judgment to control our fantasy.
I think the verse 2252 is in the line with your reasoning
And We never sent a messenger or a prophet before thee but when he desired, the devil made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the devil casts, then does Allah establish His messages. And Allah is Knowing, Wise
Wama arsalna min qablika minrasoolin wala nabiyyin illa itha tamanna alqa alshshaytanu fee omniyyatihi fayansakhuAllahu ma yulqee alshshaytanu thumma yuhkimu Allahu ayatihi waAllahuAAaleemun hakeemun
Peace
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Peace Burhan,
This thread is the most bizzare thing that I have ever come across.
The play on words is just .... fantastic.It is at least less bizzare than the common belief that "jinn" are ghosts.
The ironic thing here is that you are indulging your own fantasies of what you want your
God to say to you, whilst describing it at the same time.So why don't you tell us what you think "jinn" are?
Perhaps you are just happy to believe that they are ghosts.
Are you guys bored, is that it? Looking for new ways to amuse yourselves.
It seems that you are the one who is bored and hence decided to post on a thread that you consider "amusing". None of us considers it that way.
Jinns were a pretty simple concept to grasp until you guys muddelled it all up.
This is just an arrogant empty boast. You clearly don't know what "jinn" are. If you knew, you would have told us instead of mindlessly criticizing.
You can easily prove me wrong by telling us what you think "jinn" are. You certainly have the tools to do some proper research. Just use them to examine all the occurrences of the word "jin" and its derivatives and then tell us what you think they are.
So this Iblis chap was God's fanatasy. He made up the whole thing. Then this fantasy spoke to God asking
for respite. Of course Solomon was even more crazy because his fantasies moved physical objects.You are confused about cause and effect. Our imagination/fantasy is just as real as brainwaves/energy. Now the images projected by our imagination/fantasy are not real but can be realized when we actually produce what we imagined. Perhaps an example might clarify things. A TV is real but the images projected are not physically "real". However, if one wants to make them physically real, one can imitate the behavior on TV or go make/buy a car exactly like the one he saw in a TV commercial. Also, keep in mind that as far as The God is concerned, everything is a "real" creation of His, including the TV images (electrons racing accross a tube TV or photons of light on a projection screen).
Also, I can see why Muhammed was called majnoon, he fantasized a group of jinns listening to him, and later these
fantasies went back to other fanatasies and spoke to them, warning them. Actually they had quite a long chat.
Here's a question for you. If no one sees two fantasies talking, do they make a sound?It is ironic that you said above that others are "Looking for new ways to amuse yourselves". Yet, you are the only one on this thread who is joking.
But sincerely I do say this, why do you confuse issues and enjoy debating on them. Aren't you the ones
seeking refuge with your fanatises.So help us by telling us what "jinn", which you said is a "pretty simple concept to grasp" means. Start by translating the word "jinn" if you can.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace sister Marie,
Lately, I have been thinking about some of the concepts in the great reading, for example, the extensive use of allegories. Now, allegories could be kind of considered as talking to our "imagination/fantasy". We are warned in 37 not to follow the allegorical signs in the great reading in the same way that we are told not to follow the fantasy (3029). We are also told in 37 about the judging signs. In a way, the judging signs is what we use to control the allegorical ones. It is as if the great reading mirrors us because we use our judgment to control our fantasy.
I think the verse 2252 is in the line with your reasoning
And We never sent a messenger or a prophet before thee but when he desired, the devil made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the devil casts, then does Allah establish His messages. And Allah is Knowing, Wise
Wama arsalna min qablika minrasoolin wala nabiyyin illa itha tamanna alqa alshshaytanu fee omniyyatihi fayansakhuAllahu ma yulqee alshshaytanu thumma yuhkimu Allahu ayatihi waAllahuAAaleemun hakeemun
Thank you for the good observation. This passage is indeed related.
I am not sure about the translation of "tamanna" as "desired". This is the most widely used modern Arabic meaning. However, Classical Arabic dictionaries give other meanings that could better fit. For example, one of the meanings given for "tamana" is "one saying what he doesn't know".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman. Your observation on verse 37 is superb. We have to check our fantasies/illusions/misinterpretations when trying to understand the verses that are allegorical.And to a lesser degree, the more literal verses. The real essence/spirit and meaning of the clearer(more literal.) verses can help us from deviating when interprating the allegorical verses. Some posters have been saying this,in regard to the quran,previously. Ps;the clearer,more literal verses should still be interpreted by personal verification,not just literal or linguistic means.
Peace all. -
Pecae Ayman,
Asking what a Jinn is like asking what is God, it's a pointless question.
Having never met a Jinn or captured one, I can't tell you - and niether can you infer
anything other what the Quran tells you - The verses where Jinns are mentioned are clear
and sufficient enough.Eg.
God created them before man.
Satan was one of the Jinn
The Jinns used to serve Solomon
Hell will filled with them
etc.The 100 odd verses that mention them don't need your tafseer nor mine.
Beyond those description I have nothing else. What do you want a molecular description?
Why not swap the word Jinn with mangoes. Using your well famous techniques and enough time it should work.
God created mangoes, Satan was a type of mango. If mountains, hands, and feet can talk and behave like beings
why can't mangoes. Why can't mangoes intice us to do bad things.You know the kind of debates free-minds is gravitating towrads is the ones that I see people having forums
for matrix or starwars. "Oh.. Lucas meant such and such by this sence. This scene means this ... etc."
It is inferene upon inference , speculation upon speculation. Same passion and vigour but utterly pointless and fruitless.The debates never end and even Lucus is left scrating his head on how his fans can infere so much.
As for me joking - well never underestimate the power of humour.
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Peace phoenix1
John created the WhiteHorse in 1878.
WhiteHorse was one of the first <nouns> in his collection.
By 1900 there were 100 other similar <nouns> to his name.Theses <nouns> provided comfort for many men. They felt safe and had
a sense of pride regarding them.Now if you asked me what that <noun> is, I would call you crazy.
It could be
house
pub
flat
gun
robocopYou would be even more crazy if you picked eg. house and then infered that
it is a wooden house with laminated floors & titled roof, and that it is the tiled roof
that provides safey and not the laminated floors.I hope you see what I'm criticising. It's not even the interpretation but this wierd approach of deconstructing words into other words, and then using them to infer other ideas etc.
thanks.
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peace Burhan
I get what you're saying, but the quran is a bit different from that example. We've all seen and understand the things you listed. The "jinn", if they are some sort of beings, no one has seen them. There is no one in this world who can give a good, believable, verifiable explanation of what these 'beings' are. Not you, not anyone. So if the author of the quran had seen these beings, he would have explained to us what they are.
you still havn't answered my question, what, according to your understanding, are the jinn? because the quran doesn't really tell us what they are except the things you listed in your last post (they were made before man etc...).
Please tell us what you think the jinn are so that we can see which interpretation fits better into the verses, and which makes more sense. -
I think ayman is falling into a classic 37 trap... he is speculating on verses which are unclear to him without any knowledge. Talking about jinn without ever having come across one is like talking about love without having ever felt it. Only conjecture.
From my personal experience, which I chose to not elaborate upon because it is not something which can be explained, but only experienced, I know that jinn are separate from our normal thoughtpatterns and separate from our ego. Brother ayman seems to be talking about how our personal ego and thoughts can be detrimental to us, which I do not disagree with. However, there are something else external to this which can affect us, in both positive and negative ways. Now, one can conceptualize this other, the jinn, as some kind of external thoughtforms, or some sort of energy, or beings of some sort. I think from the Qur'an it is quite evident that there is no clear description of the form of jinn (except the rather allegorical reference to them being made of fire), and so I think that it is not important to figure out exactly what they are. Rather, what is important is that they are external to humans, and that if we do not protect ourselves, some of them can cause us great harm, just like evil human beings can cause us great harm (though I do not believe that there are inherently evil human beings - they are evil because the evil jinn have in some manner taken control of their personality).
Now, I know that I only have personal experience to back up my claim, so I don't expect others to take anything I say as fact without first verifying it for themselves. But please, let us try not to create plausible conjectures based on ignorance. -
peace claurianta. I agree with your analysis of jinn. However i feel ayman is saying virtually the same as you in slightly different language. I also feel(though i would appreciate if brother ayman could elaborate on this.) that ayman has come to this conclusion through personal verification.If not,then he still has uncovered a great theory and i would like to know what method he used. idea !
I feel the general idea is to 'transcend' harmful thoughts(inappropriate jinn/thoughts.) into 'positive' thoughts,thus leading to beneficial behaviour.(establishing salat; which means producing and following beneficial thoughts or jinn, thus leading to zakat which is purification/beneficial behaviour/freedom from harmful behaviour.)
peace all. -
Peace Burhan,
Asking what a Jinn is like asking what is God, it's a pointless question.
The false analogy that you are using is false on so many levels that it only demonstrates that despite having ample resources you don't even know the basic tenets of the book.
For example, you obviously don't know that while we are to have faith in The God, we are never told to have faith in the "jinn". In fact, we SHOULD NOT have faith in the "jinn" as per 3440-41.
You also seem to ignore that while we are told that The God is beyond our comprehension (6103, 4211) as well as the spirit (1786), there is no such assertion with respect to the "jinn".
Having never met a Jinn or captured one, I can't tell you
So you don't know that the "jinn" is linked (qarin) to the human. If you don't know anything then you should first gain knowledge and then comment. This is better than making asking about the "jinn" analogous with asking about The God.
and niether can you infer
anything other what the Quran tells you - The verses where Jinns are mentioned are clear and sufficient enough.Obviously they are not clear to you since as you said above you don't know anything about "jinn". So those passages mean nothing to you and don't affect anything in your life. They might as well be saying "blah blah blah" .
Eg.
God created them before man.
Satan was one of the Jinn
The Jinns used to serve Solomon
Hell will filled with them
etc.So what lesson did you learn from the above? Is that where you learned that "asking what a Jinn is like asking what is God"?
The 100 odd verses that mention them don't need your tafseer nor mine.
So you think that those verses are completely irrelevant to you and me.
Beyond those description I have nothing else. What do you want a molecular description?
You are right that you have nothing. So try to have something instead of criticizing with zero knowledge and thus adding nothing of value.
Why not swap the word Jinn with mangoes. Using your well famous techniques and enough time it should work.
God created mangoes, Satan was a type of mango. If mountains, hands, and feet can talk and behave like beings
why can't mangoes. Why can't mangoes intice us to do bad things.You know the kind of debates free-minds is gravitating towrads is the ones that I see people having forums
for matrix or starwars. "Oh.. Lucas meant such and such by this sence. This scene means this ... etc."
It is inferene upon inference , speculation upon speculation. Same passion and vigour but utterly pointless and fruitless.The debates never end and even Lucus is left scrating his head on how his fans can infere so much.
So it is "utterly pointless and fruitless" to try to understand "the 100 odd verses" of the great reading.
As for me joking - well never underestimate the power of humour.
This is funny, so perhaps you would appreciate this cartoon, which is the only entry in Edip's famous cartoon competition
http//19.org/forum/index.php/m/34677/5396/0///0/#msg_34677
Peace,
Ayman