Modern Holidays?
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Christians celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Christ. That the date coincides with previous pagan ritual days is simply a side effect of Christianity seeking to replace pagan rituals with Christian rituals, as you partly pointed out.
Easter is when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Christ. Date likely chosen for similar historical reasons.
The secularization of both holidays (holy days) by non-believers should not be misconstrued as Christians changing the meaning and significance of the holidays.
I certainly understand if Muslims do not think it proper to celebrate Christian holidays (though the Quran does say Christ was a prophet of God), but that does not mean Christians are celebrating pagan rituals on those days.
Thanks.
/oneway
Peace oneway,
Christians keep non biblical holidays sorry..No where in their Bible does it command or suggest its okay to celebrate the Birth or Resurrection of Jesus..It does say though in Jeremiah 101-10 Not to adopt the ways of the Heathen,and not to cut down trees and decorate them with silver and gold..it also says that Jesus was resurrected 3 days and 3 nights after his death,which if was on Friday as they claim would have been (FriNight=1+,SatNight=2+,SunNight=3 nights;Sat=1+,Sun=2+,Mon=3 days) late afternoon Monday,not sunday morning(but alot of people believe he died in the yr 31 CE,And Passover fell on Wed that yr,so 3 days and 3 nights would have been late saturday,explaining why he was already risen as their bible says come sunday morning before sunrise)..But thats a whole other story and topic.It does show in the New Testament though that Christians both Jewish and Gentile observed the same days as the Jews did..Passover for the Death,etc etc..and history shows the same thing up until the Catholic Church changed it all.
Peace -
Dear Jhamza
I suppouse the answer is different to each person, for one man may stomach meat and another only vegetables. It is how one judges the action that makes it to their concionsce a sin or a save. But the act is not greater than the intention, for the action lives and dies as the shadow but the intention stays with you as the sun.
Yesterday we had celebrated Persian New years and several months ago was (Western?)New years as well. I am sure I could point out many pagan origins of the event, but to point out the wrong in something is easy, to point to the right is wisdom.
I think the intention in any circumstance is key, for what are you celebrating, another oppurtunity to grow and feed the soul its manna bread(for have you not heared "God gave man space so he could strive for perfection, and time so he could try again) , or are you still trading the manna food for the stomach bread ignoring the one who gives pulses to the hearts?
I find during Christmas time our family does get together, and if this is the only way they will get together I will then milk this oppurtunity to spend time with them, it does not mean that I am going to give up my mind or hearts loyalty, but I will look past the smoke and see the glowing fires warmth, for appearance as usual is misleading.
peace,
Khalil -
Peace khalil. Excellent analysis.
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Peace khalil and all. I am married(commited.) to all the human-race..... D But this commitment is purely platonic.
Peace all. -
PEACE JHamza, all
i don't think its the pagan origins that are important, but the idea, intention behind observing those events. For example, Khalil celebrates christmas because he sees it as a chance to get together with his family, as opposed to celebrating the birthday of the son of God (isn't that what christmas is?).
Observing mindless rituals that cost you money, health, and time just because someone says you should makes no sense.
There is nothing wrong with observing events or rituals that benefit one as an individual (but that doesn't mean they can preach that ritual) -
PEACE JHamza, all
i don't think its the pagan origins that are important, but the idea, intention behind observing those events. For example, Khalil celebrates christmas because he sees it as a chance to get together with his family, as opposed to celebrating the birthday of the son of God (isn't that what christmas is?).
Observing mindless rituals that cost you money, health, and time just because someone says you should makes no sense.
There is nothing wrong with observing events or rituals that benefit one as an individual (but that doesn't mean they can preach that ritual)Peace phoenix1,
Im not saying that we shouldnt observe,only that if its wrong to keep them if they have pagan origins then we shouldnt if the QURAN mentions such things..But what I dont get is why is it okay to keep them as family get togethers but its not okay to adopt pagan rituals to worship GOD,it should go both ways..imo..I myself still observe Christmas,and Halloween as time for family and friends,but if I find out its wrong according to the Quran then I have no problem stopping..plus we still have Thanksgiving here in America,which isnt pagan or christian really,but A time set aside to give thanks to GOD for our blessings. -
peace
You have a good point, and i did say that if one feels that a certain ritual brings them closer to God, and aren't doing it just because some religious leader tells them to. then its perfectly fine to observe it. What they shouldn't do is tell other people to perform the exact ritual (and it wouldn't really qualify as a 'ritual' then).
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peace phoenix. I agree totally with your points. I would add that these 'rituals'/festivals can help in the learning process(ie something we might need to go through to verify its usefulness.) and even if we feel benefit from these rituals/festivals they should not cause/promote harm to us or others.The rituals/festivals can be an opportunity for promotion of peace and knowledge even if they have so-called 'questionable' origins. Its what the ritual/festival currently means or tries to achieve which is important,not just its original purpose or origins.
Peace all. -
Peace khalil,All
We cant say its okay to observe Christmas,Halloween etc when they are Pagan in origin then say its wrong to observe things Traditional Muslims do,like their style of Salat,Pilgrimage to Mecca,circling the Black Stone,etc
Peace Jhamza
Indeed, I think it goes down to the intention, for when one goes to Hajj or a Christmas gathering what exactly are their intentions for attending? For the action could be wrong, but the intention could be right, like a child giving dirt as a present.
I think these words below sums this up rather beautifully;
Whom Am I or They to see to whom you pray aint right
That's what got you doing right and got you this far
Whether you say "in Jesus name" or "Al hum du'Allah"
Long as you know it's a being that's supreme to you
You let that show towards others in the things you doCommon - G.O.D (Gaining Ones Definition)
peace,
Khalil -
Well I agree with some of what has been said and I disagree with most though. Here is my reasoning on the subject. First I have posted a new topic on this under General Issues and Questions.
First let?s start with the basics. JESUS birth date is not recorded in any book written in the history of this world. Further more you will not find it in the Bible of any other religious book. Now my question to all would be why celebrate a date that the Roman Catholic Church decided would be Jesus Birthday and that we should celebrate it accordingly. Many other nations and countries have celebrated this many yrs before Americans started to. But what it all bowls down to is that we have all been deceived on this subject for many yrs. I mean think about it ASDFJK a member of this group we are part of stated that he will continue to tell his children that Santa Claus with his elves gives them presents. And this is wrong, it?s wrong because it?s a LIE. IF we are to consider our selves TRUTH SEAKERS then we should at least follow the truth we know. Second the Bibles tell us to prove all things before we believe them. This date Dec. 25 cannot be proved or even considered as Jesus birthday. There is simply no history, bible, or history book to even provide a shred of evidence to support this LIE. So then why do people let themselves be fooled by this? You can however prove that everything surrounding Christmas is either a lie or has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. Following is info on the history of how Americans came to celebrate Christmas the so called birth day of Christ.
Also some food for thought DON?T YOU THINK IF JESUS BIRTH DAY WAS TO BE OF ANY IMPROTANCE TO US OR GETTING TO HEAVEN THAT WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD BY JESUS OR SHOWN BY GOD.
http//www.locksley.com/6696/xmas.htm
Above is the web site where I just got this information. But as you will see when you read this the Roman Catholics are responsible for Christmas being celebrated in the US. You can also see have for centuries the church has falsely guided its people to believe that Jesus was born on Dec 25. You will also see that at first Americans rejected this idea but were again misguided by people that wanted to alter the truth to make such a thing as this. Many people have been misguided about the truth of Christmas for many years, and I am trying to show people this truth in order to Guide people to the whole truth that Jesus had laid for us to follow. The info I have provided is length so please be patient and read it all. And feel free to share this with whomever. Thanks for your time and desire to know the whole truth.The Christian holiday was not always celebrated on December 25th, however.
For the first three hundred years of the current era, there was no festivity of the birth of Jesus. Some churches celebrated Jesus' birthday in the spring time and some celebrated it on January 6 (Epiphany).
Early in the fourth century, the Roman church decreed that December 25 would henceforth be recognized as the birthday of Christ. The Eastern churches refused to accept Christmas until 375 C.E., and the churches in Jerusalem rejected the December 25 date until the seventh century.
There are still some Eastern Rite churches that continue to celebrate the Epiphany date.
The Pilgrims outlawed Christmas. They also refused to use the 1611 King James Bible!
The Winter Solistice was the season of a major celebration of fertility in ancient Rome called "Saturnalia," starting on December 17th. This honoured the "good old days" when the god Saturn ruled a supposed "Golden Age", and there were no masters and no slaves, and everything was easy. Thus, it became a reversal-holiday, when the masters served the slaves, and a slave was chosen to temporarily rule the household. The Romans were civilized enough to not kill him afterwards, as seems to be the custom with such holidays in more primitive cultures.
They also exchanged presents, were allowed to gamble in public, and in general had a good time. It was the greatest holiday of the year.
It should come as no surprise then that the Christian Church co-opted this seasonal holiday, celebrated by the city that ruled the world -and- celebrated by Christianity's major competitor (Mithraism). It was simply a very astute political move.
St. John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople at the end of the fourth century wrote "On this day also the Birthday of Christ was lately fixed at Rome in order that while the heathen were busy with their profane ceremonies, the Christians might perform their sacred rites undisturbed. They call this (December 25th), the Birthday of the Invincible One (Mithras); but who is so invincible as the Lord? They call it the Birthday of the Solar Disk, but Christ is the Sun of Righteousness."This custom of the "Feast of Fools" was continued in medieval Western Europe, with a "Lord of Misrule," mummers doing traditional plays, feasting with a boar's head, games, dancing and other such merriment. This could last for more than just Christmas Day, going on until at least Epiphany (January 6th) in many cases ..... these are our "Twelve Days of Christmas."
Christmas even started out controversially in North America. Reverend Rel Davis writes
The festival of Christmas has always been a controversial one in Christianity. The Puritans banned Christmas altogether and during the Cromwellian period in England, anyone celebrating Christmas was jailed for heresy. Probably the most hated of all Puritan laws was the one abolishing Christmas and probably led to popular acceptance of royalty (nb the Restoration) -- at least the King allowed the masses to celebrate Yule!
In America, Christmas was generally outlawed until the end of the last century. In Boston, up to 1870, anyone missing work on Christmas Day would be fired. Factory owners customarily required employees to come to work at 5 a.m. on Christmas -- to insure they wouldn't have time to go to church that day. And any student who failed to go to school on December 25 would be expelled. Only the arrival of large numbers of Irish and northern European immigrants brought acceptance of Christmas in this country.
Christmas did not even begin to be a legal holiday anywhere in the United States until very late in the nineteenth century CE, with Alabama being the first state to make it so.
Now let's look at some Christmas customs
The name "Yule" is not derived from Chaldaean, as some would have you believe, but rather from the Old Norse "Jol" or "Jul" thru Anglo-Saxon "Geol" to Middle English "Yule." It means "Winter Solistice," or "Christmas." It is found in the Germanic languages, but not in the Romance languages like French, Spanish and Italian, who have names for Christmas that mean closer to "The Birthday" than anything else. There is, of course, no connection linguistically between Chaldaean and the Germanic languages .... or with the Romance languages either, for that matter.
I have also heard some folks thundering against the use of the abbreviation "Xmas" as being "against Jesus." Frankly, nothing could be more absurd. This usage derives from a common medieval abbreviation for "Christ" using a Cross rather than the name. This was most common in signatures, and thus you would see a signature of "Xtoph" rather than "Kristoph." It is simply an abbreviation, and nothing more.
The name "Christmas" derives, of course, from Middle English "Cristes m?sse" or "Christ's Mass," that is, the Roman church's standard ritual celebration. This alone, being Roman Catholic, seems to render it suspect in the minds of many hard-core Protestants .... though they seem to forget that at the time Middle English was spoken, the Roman Catholic Church was pretty much the only game in town.
The night before, Christmas Eve, was called "Modranect" or "Modranecht" by the Germanic pagan peoples (this seems to be Old English / Anglo-Saxon, and apparently means "Mother's Night". This is obviously in honor of the Mother Goddess who bore the solar Child of Promise.
The Magi, or the Three Wise Men The "Magi" were, in antiquity, priests of Zoroastrianism ..... and reputed to be expert Magi-cians (see the derivation of the word there?) and astrologers. Mithraism is associated with Zoroastrianism much like Christianity stems from Judaism. The "Three Kings" bits are a later interpolation, and there may very well be a "Triple God" aspect slipping in here from folk-memory, too.
The Star of Bethlehem? Well, this page might give us some leads. It may have been a planetary conjunction noticed by the magician-astrologers. That theory at least explains why there are no other accounts of a miraculous star in historical records of the time.
I have heard several remarks over the years about how much the Wiccans must like Christmas, because they can buy so many nicely made pentagrams then. Not to worry, though, because as shown in the medieval poem "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" and in Mallory's "Morte d'Arthur" the pentagram is very much a Christian symbol too.
The Yule Log is pretty obvious. Sympathetic magic, with its rule of "As in Heaven, so on Earth" (a re-stating of the more usual wording of 'As above, so below" means that to have a blazing fire on earth would encourage the sun to grow stronger. Therefore, the Winter Solistice is a "fire festival," with bonfires and Yule logs being lit to "help" the sun grow stronger between then and Midsummer. It also served a more practical purpose of warming up the home during a cold night in which many people stayed awake for much longer than they usually did.
Sincerely, Larry/Abuja