Declarations of Independence

bmbmm

Oneway you should move your uncles out of the teritories of other prople, from Iraq and Afganitan. I like Chicken Tika Curry (CTC) not KFC lol
And show some respect to the millions and millions of innocent women and children died/dying around the world and those died by the atomic bombs.
I suggest you seek for giveness from God from these ediots who have Oneway tickets to hell shock

oneway

We're in Iraq trying to quell the forces of radical Islam long enough to help that new democracy get stronger while your Muslim brethren bomb and behead innocents, yet its the hegemony of the US everyone should fear and despise?

Dear God. Is that why you guys think you are in Iraq? For Freedom ala Braveheart?!? See what slogans do to people? I've been talking about this for a long time on the forum but no one understands lol Turns the brain to mush it does.

So where's the outrage against the "slogans" in the Quran and hadiths that, according to many on this site, are being misused to justify all kinds of evil?

Like you, some here see it but the vast majority of the Muslim world intentionally ignore it because their mind controlling clerics, leaders, and apologists like MAsadi, keep them amped up that the Great Satan of the US and capitalism is to blame for everything instead of their 7th century mindset wrapped up in a corrupt view of holiness.

And no, that is not a Christian vs Muslim rant as much as AhmedBaghat would like to oversimplify it to those terms. Its about good Muslims willfully ignoring the misdeeds of those who claim to be acting in the interest of Islam because its easier to villify Jews, Christians, Israel, the US, whoever, than to accept the responsibility to self police. Apply that mindset over several centuries and you get the mess we have today, where many Islamic countries are so oppressed by their governments that self policing is almost impossible. That leads to terrorism, sometimes state sponsored, and that is obviously a threat to the US. So we're doing something about it.

For all the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, it has already had a positive impact elsewhere Libya renouncing pursuit of WMD, Lebanon getting rid of Syrian occupation, and Iran is clearly feeling the heat.

My view is not simply a brainwashed form of national pride. I've been involved in projects where I got to see some of these problems up close, both the problems within the US government and the problems abroad. I can assure you, as bad as the problems within the US government are, they pale compared to the effects of oppressive religion and oppressive governments. It isn't freedom ala Braveheart, its about establishing a couple of semi-sane governments in the Middle East to start turning the tide against the more radical ones like Iran.

I would think at least some on this board would endorse that in the interest of pushing back extremism, even if they have lots of criticism about how its being done. Criticism is fine, but in typical fashion most here circle the wagons, rejecting the possibility that the US could be in it for anything more than some sort of colonial power grab.

Newsflash We already have the power and the cash. We don't need Afghanistan and Iraq so we can become more dominant. We need them to stabilize to help reduce the havens for terrorists, make clear that tyrants cannot thumb their nose at the world and get away with it, and get the ball rolling toward democracy in the Middle East which will be better for everyone and lessen the threat of terrorist attacks in the US and everywhere else. That's what its about in spite of the conspiracy theories wrapped up in the fancy socialist rhetoric of people like MAsadi.

/oneway.

oneway

"Who else would invite their enemy to come study and spends billions upon billions to rebuild nations after defeating their tyrranical dictators in war? "

you wouldn't be talking about the billions of dollars going to american contractors like halliburton would you?

I've never said the US was free of corruption. No government (or faith) on the planet can lay claim to that. I'm arguing against the view forwarded by people like MAsadi that the US is the principle source of corruption for the whole world, conveniently ignoring the good the US does as well as the problems stemming from oppressive religion.

For our part, where corruption becomes evident, there are plenty of Americans, within the government and through grassroots efforts, who will take full advantage of the freedoms we enjoy to bring the truth to light, even if it takes some time.

"Ever go to Baghdad during Saddam's reign? I did. People were asking us to bring them medicine for tape worm on our next visit -- medicine Americans associate with their house pets because the problem is so rare among the human population here. That's how well Saddam treated his people, that is when he and his sons weren't gassing, raping, torturing, or shredding innocents, and when he had time to take a break from pocketing all the funds from the Oil for Food scandal with help from the corrupt UN, who you treat as a valid source of objective data."

ever hear about the economic sanctions on iraq? the usa was the most adamant that the sanctions keep on being imposed. but who really suffered-the iraqi people.

the usa was pro-saddam for many many years and let him get entrenched in power.

That's right - we definitely contributed to making that mess and now we're finally helping clean it up.

Saddam caused the sanctions to be necessary, Saddam's behavior kept the sanctions in place, and Saddam stole the Oil for Food money to get in bed with the French and others instead of seeing that his people got what they needed from that revenue.

oneway

OneWay

What was the background of your Revolutionary War and who you were fighting? Breifly I wanted to hear it from you.

The rest is all BS about Iraq. Iraq and Afghanistan war is not over yet.

The Revolutionary war was Colonial America seeking independence from Britain.

I didn't say Iraq and Afghanistan were over but that some good progress is being made.

oneway

Oneway you should move your uncles out of the teritories of other prople, from Iraq and Afganitan. I like Chicken Tika Curry (CTC) not KFC lol
And show some respect to the millions and millions of innocent women and children died/dying around the world and those died by the atomic bombs.
I suggest you seek for giveness from God from these ediots who have Oneway tickets to hell shock

Ignoring your slant on history and your acceptance of MAsadi's socialist spin, I respect them by arguing for the continued spread of democracy which will help prevent the demise of innocents brought on by blind adherence to corrupt principles.

We all need to seek forgiveness from God.

unknownuser

peace oneway and all. I am from a muslim background/tradition and i have been personally expressing outrage at all manner of harmful interpretations of quran/hadith/any philosophy which oppresses and harms humanity. You are right,self-styled irresponsible and delusional clerics have played a part in tricking some muslims into believing all manner of non-sense.People not using their god-given conscience and intellect has also lead to a decline in morals and development. I am not ignoring the misdeeds of clerics and extremists,in fact i venture to say they are causing huge harm to theirselves and others by their lack of grasp of reality,and their disdain for human life in pursuit of their cause.
I could also bracket some elements of the us into this illusional category,who seems to have disdain for peoples lives. Collateral damage is a dangerous term,which dilutes the suffering and loss of life caused.This is also done in the name of the ideaology of democracy. I personally believe that true democracy(with in built accountability and reality checks on power.)is the best current method of government.However i would not kill innocents in its name. I could buy that some in the us want to install democracy in the name of peace/stability but the end does not always justify the means.We have to be very careful when defusing terrorists not to become terrorists ourselves. I do wonder why the us did not go in to rwanda when hundreds of thousands were reportedly killed,or sudan etc,etc.. is not saudi arabia an oppressive society etc.etc..? what sometimes worries people about the us administration is that it normally seems that they pursue their own interests,not the interests of the whole of the world or even the us people.
Witness the kyoto treaty,world trade,how the UN is over-ruled and the new orleans situation....
Do you think iraq and the world are more stable now the us is in iraq? Please answer that honestly. I dont doubt that some of the administration are decent,genuine peole who hope their actions will make the world more peaceful....But i also hope they can admit when they make massive mistakes/miscalculations which creates a lot of suffering and death. And i defintely dont absolve the muslim extremists who kill innocents in the name of islam. I condemn all terrorism,whether islamic,U
S,iraqi,christian,atheist,etc... i think all these people need to take on board that we are all brothers and sisters in humanity,that we will reap what we sow,and that hurting others hurts ourselves as well in the long run.
Life is precious,....Increase the peace...
Peace all.

oneway

For those who want to grasp a better understanding of the war in Iraq, and many other events happening in our today's world, here is a interesting article
http//ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

Peace

JM,

Thanks - that's a pretty good article. I fully agree that the US government is too close to Israel and, more generally, the ills caused by special interest lobbying are many. (That's why I support the Fair Tax legislation that would help cut the legs from under the lobbying groups that have so much influence today - see www.fairtax.org).

However, I reject the notion that Israeli interests are the primary factor behind US Middle East foreign policy. That might have been true at some points in the past, but today that policy is driven primarily by our reaction to 9/11 and events since. Israel still plays a role, and it is certainly too large a role, but it is hardly the deciding factor behind recent US policies.

Regards,
oneway

Fahad1

And when it is said to them 'Do not cause war and destruction on earth.' They say 'We are only making peace'...

KGB

Thank you ONEWAY for your honest reply.

lol

That means you were fighting the British occupation army. Iraqis are fighting the U.S. occupation army and they are called Terrorists Thugs Insurgents people who hate freedom. If we apply the same criteria to revolutionary war than American Terrorists Thugs Insurgents people win - don't they lol

ONEWAY get your facts correct. America hundreds of billions dollars are the expenses of their occupation. The fact is that very small amount of money is spend on construction what they have destroyed.

Good progress. Like what?

U.S. is trying to find a easy way out of Iraq now as they have lost the war. First they will come up with a beautiful slogan American win - Terrorists lost and get out of Iraq.

savage_carrot

So where's the outrage against the "slogans" in the Quran and hadiths that, according to many on this site, are being misused to justify all kinds of evil?

Give us examples instead of allegations. Are we talking about this website? The entire world? There are plenty of people trying to change the tide, just like there are in your country. As is the way of the world, these people are in the minority, and mocked at by the majority.

Like you, some here see it but the vast majority of the Muslim world intentionally ignore it because their mind controlling clerics, leaders, and apologists like MAsadi, keep them amped up that the Great Satan of the US and capitalism is to blame for everything instead of their 7th century mindset wrapped up in a corrupt view of holiness.

Would you like to talk politics or religion? Are they both sides of the same coin? Everyone has their own demons to fight against. That does not transform the demon into an 'angel'.

And no, that is not a Christian vs Muslim rant as much as AhmedBaghat would like to oversimplify it to those terms. Its about good Muslims willfully ignoring the misdeeds of those who claim to be acting in the interest of Islam because its easier to villify Jews, Christians, Israel, the US, whoever, than to accept the responsibility to self police. Apply that mindset over several centuries and you get the mess we have today, where many Islamic countries are so oppressed by their governments that self policing is almost impossible. That leads to terrorism, sometimes state sponsored, and that is obviously a threat to the US. So we're doing something about it.

I'm glad you clarified that, based on your biases that you accept having, many would come to that conclusion. Did you read the excellent link JM provided? If you were a real 'patriot', you would be against the war in Iraq amongst other things.

For all the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, it has already had a positive impact elsewhere Libya renouncing pursuit of WMD, Lebanon getting rid of Syrian occupation, and Iran is clearly feeling the heat.

Your definition of 'positive' impact? If WMD (not weapons of mass deception) are so bad, why does the US have them if not for self defence? Do you really buy into this hypocrisy? Don't answer that. It's apparent.

My view is not simply a brainwashed form of national pride. I've been involved in projects where I got to see some of these problems up close, both the problems within the US government and the problems abroad. I can assure you, as bad as the problems within the US government are, they pale compared to the effects of oppressive religion and oppressive governments. It isn't freedom ala Braveheart, its about establishing a couple of semi-sane governments in the Middle East to start turning the tide against the more radical ones like Iran.

Ah, so you justify it by that reasoning do you? Semi-sane? What gives you the right to decide for another country? Do you think that your motivations and way of thinking are the epitome of enlightenment? The problems are apparent in that line of 'reasoning', bias and other dubious motivations creep in. You want the rest of the world to believe as you do? You want to control it to your specifications? Sovereign country. Do you know what that means? Radical, just like terrorism, the meaning changes according to who is using it.

I would think at least some on this board would endorse that in the interest of pushing back extremism, even if they have lots of criticism about how its being done. Criticism is fine, but in typical fashion most here circle the wagons, rejecting the possibility that the US could be in it for anything more than some sort of colonial power grab.

Your definition of extreme? Using violence for it's ends? Hmm, would that include your country? In typical fashion you tout the same extremist views that have been debated ad nauseum. You cannot justify the war on Iraq, no matter how badly you want to.

Newsflash We already have the power and the cash. We don't need Afghanistan and Iraq so we can become more dominant. We need them to stabilize to help reduce the havens for terrorists, make clear that tyrants cannot thumb their nose at the world and get away with it, and get the ball rolling toward democracy in the Middle East which will be better for everyone and lessen the threat of terrorist attacks in the US and everywhere else. That's what its about in spite of the conspiracy theories wrapped up in the fancy socialist rhetoric of people like MAsadi.

Newsflash- Read and learn what is happening in your country and the motivations behind it. I realize that you and a lot of your kinsmen are deliberately kept in the dark due to whatever passes for 'journalism'/'media' there, that however, should not stop you from being aware of the big picture. Tyrants? Heh. Read the link JM provided, and then talk about 'conspiracy theories'.

The only thing that ever consoles man for the stupid things he does is the praise he always gives himself for doing them - Oscar Wilde

I would be all for a country doing some real good. Sadly, this is NOT it. This is hypocrisy.

unknownuser

Peace saladin. That verse applies to some muslims and all terrorists...
ps; very good post savage carrot.
peace all.

bmbmm

Oneway,

I agree that there are some deviated muslims who misuse the Quran and follow much of the hadith (fabricated history). Real islam is just peace but nothing else. However, the US and European policy is clearly not right, all driven by greed that you have to agree with.

We should keep an open mind.

Peace

Fahad1

Peace saladin. That verse applies to some muslims and all terrorists...

who are the terrorists ?
peace.

oneway

peace oneway and all. I am from a muslim background/tradition and i have been personally expressing outrage at all manner of harmful interpretations of quran/hadith/any philosophy which oppresses and harms humanity. You are right,self-styled irresponsible and delusional clerics have played a part in tricking some muslims into believing all manner of non-sense.People not using their god-given conscience and intellect has also lead to a decline in morals and development. I am not ignoring the misdeeds of clerics and extremists,in fact i venture to say they are causing huge harm to theirselves and others by their lack of grasp of reality,and their disdain for human life in pursuit of their cause.
I could also bracket some elements of the us into this illusional category,who seems to have disdain for peoples lives. Collateral damage is a dangerous term,which dilutes the suffering and loss of life caused.This is also done in the name of the ideaology of democracy. I personally believe that true democracy(with in built accountability and reality checks on power.)is the best current method of government.However i would not kill innocents in its name. I could buy that some in the us want to install democracy in the name of peace/stability but the end does not always justify the means.We have to be very careful when defusing terrorists not to become terrorists ourselves. I do wonder why the us did not go in to rwanda when hundreds of thousands were reportedly killed,or sudan etc,etc.. is not saudi arabia an oppressive society etc.etc..? what sometimes worries people about the us administration is that it normally seems that they pursue their own interests,not the interests of the whole of the world or even the us people.
Witness the kyoto treaty,world trade,how the UN is over-ruled and the new orleans situation....
Do you think iraq and the world are more stable now the us is in iraq? Please answer that honestly. I dont doubt that some of the administration are decent,genuine peole who hope their actions will make the world more peaceful....But i also hope they can admit when they make massive mistakes/miscalculations which creates a lot of suffering and death. And i defintely dont absolve the muslim extremists who kill innocents in the name of islam. I condemn all terrorism,whether islamic,U
S,iraqi,christian,atheist,etc... i think all these people need to take on board that we are all brothers and sisters in humanity,that we will reap what we sow,and that hurting others hurts ourselves as well in the long run.
Life is precious,....Increase the peace...
Peace all.

Thanks, enquirer. Very well said and I agree with a lot of you thoughts. I do believe the reports of civilian deaths directly attributed to the US in Iraq are tremendously overstated, and as I said earlier, no one can claim the US is without corruption, but you are right that much caution is required and in many cases the miscalculations and mistakes in Iraq are evidence of insufficient caution and planning.

Not sure if you wanted to discuss some of the specific examples you raised, so I'll just offer a few thoughts on them briefly here

kyoto treaty First, while there is no doubt we are observing global warming, there is some well reasoned debate in the scientific community regarding the causes of that warming. There are problems with some of the statistical analyses that have been done to support the view that the warming we've observed is man made. Still, in light of our discussion regarding caution and due care, it would be better to see the US playing more of leadership role in this debate rather than creating the perception of apathy.
UN I spent some time with the UN in Iraq. As the Oil for Food and other recent scandals show, that organization is quite corrupt. My experience was that the competing interests of the member nations completely disabled any meaningful collaboration to the point of absurdity. We certainly may not agree about what the US does, but none of us should look to the UN for guidance. It is hopelessly broken.
New Orleans I think there were three main contributors to the post-Katrina problems. First, it was foolish to ever build a city in a bowl next to an ocean and expect that nature wouldn't eventually reveal our folly. Second, in the US, state and local governments, like those in the state of Louisiana, bear the primary responsibility things like evacuation plans and emergency preparedness for their residents. That there were buses sitting empty in flooded parking lots when Katrina hit is purely a leadership failure of the local leadership in Louisiana and New Orleans. Third, the enormous US federal government is slow and inefficient and in many cases incompetent. I believe the US is the best place on Earth to live, but relying too heavily on the federal government has caused many of the domestic problems we face today.
Rwanda/Sudan You're absolutely right. Nations act first in selfish strategic interest and there isn't much strategic value in Rwanda/Sudan so they get ignored by the US and pretty much everybody else. I don't know what the best solution to those problems is, but I think the problems at the UN contribute greatly to the lack of effective world response to those crises.
Saudi Arabia You definitely hit the nail on the head with this one. The 9/11 hijackers were all Saudis. Saudi clerics teach their children the US is evil. Saudi Arabia has some of the most oppressive laws and rules of any Islamic state. Yet we treat them like great allies because of their oil. I fully agree that that is a huge problem and we need to look at some fairly drastic measures to correct that, starting with eliminating US dependence on foreign oil. That is certainly tied in to the corruption and lobbying problems that exist in the US government.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Regards,
oneway.

unknownuser

peace saladin. The terrorists are any people who in their ignorance and incompetence kill or harm innocent people in the name of their belief or in the name of peace.And then do not repent,rectify or stop when they see the horrible suffering they have caused.And instead justify their actions with illusions and dogma. They can be from any religion or background.Its the harmful,horrible deeds they do that defines a terrorist...,not the label,nationality or religion..
peace all.

oneway

Oneway,

I agree that there are some deviated muslims who misuse the Quran and follow much of the hadith (fabricated history). Real islam is just peace but nothing else. However, the US and European policy is clearly not right, all driven by greed that you have to agree with.

We should keep an open mind.

Peace

There are definitely problems with the policies of the US and its allies to be sure, but I think just categorically saying they are 'clearly not right' paints with too broad a brush. I don't agree that its all driven by greed simply for the fact that it is costing us much more than we'll ever get out of it monetarily.

Fahad1

peace saladin. The terrorists are any people who in their ignorance and incompetence kill or harm innocent people in the name of their belief or in the name of peace.And then do not repent,rectify or stop when they see the horrible suffering they have caused.And instead justify their actions with illusions and dogma. They can be from any religion or background.Its the harmful,horrible deeds they do that defines a terrorist...,not the label,nationality or religion..
peace all.

peace.
i agree then . i thought u were refering to "muslim" terrorists only .

oneway

Thank you ONEWAY for your honest reply.

lol

That means you were fighting the British occupation army. Iraqis are fighting the U.S. occupation army and they are called Terrorists Thugs Insurgents people who hate freedom. If we apply the same criteria to revolutionary war than American Terrorists Thugs Insurgents people win - don't they lol

Nice try, but pretty predictable KGB smile

Now here's one for you Tell me, who are the insurgents in Iraq and who comprise the bulk of their victims?

The answer to those questions makes clear that your comparison doesn't apply.

ONEWAY get your facts correct. America hundreds of billions dollars are the expenses of their occupation. The fact is that very small amount of money is spend on construction what they have destroyed.

Sure, the conflict is ongoing, but that doesn't mean there isn't significant reconstruction, training of police and troops, protection of infrastructure, etc., going on. Try as you might, you can't just ignore all of that if you want to talk about US motivations in Iraq.

Good progress. Like what?

U.S. is trying to find a easy way out of Iraq now as they have lost the war. First they will come up with a beautiful slogan American win - Terrorists lost and get out of Iraq.

You pay too much attention to our liberal media smile

The consensus here is that leaving Iraq too soon would be a very bad thing for all parties, mostly for the Iraqi people.

Good progress is not hard to find if you look new democratically elected governments in both Afghanistan and Iraq, the ripple effects causing Libya to give up pursuit of WMD, Lebanon to oust Syria, and more pressure being applied to Iran.

Its a mess to be sure and progress is slow and very painful, but you can't deny that some good progress is being made.

oneway

savage_carrot,

Good thoughts -- I hope to reply more fully later but I have to go out for a bit now so I'll just touch one of your thoughts.

You asked if I want the whole world to "believe as I do". I think my answer to that is a qualified YES I want the whole world to believe in freedom and democracy.

Thanks,
oneway.