Armed Conflict, Violence, and the Quran
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Greetings Arnold,
I'm going to bed now, but I will read your reply in detail later. Thanks for sharing it. Your posts are always very detailed and I do appreciate that.
Here's another perspective on the topic of 434 that goes into considerable detail on the authors' exegesis of that verse
http//answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/beating.htm
Regards,
onewayPeace ,
Nice try oneway, but that verse is proven to be translated wrong. Daraba means to hit, to depart and so on. That they chosen to hit, out of the 20 different words they could have chosen, tells more about the translators not the Quran. If you follow the verses closely, you see the next verse talks about splitting up or not, and the Quran never endorses sin, so the word, and is also only the logical one, means to leave. The first 2 advises are used to resolve the issue, and then suddenly you can hit the woman?
No. clearly this word means to depart. First you talk, then you leave each other alone, then as a last resort you leave. If you want to talk about violence and discrimination of women, we can also have a nice look about the Bible. But here read this before you say anything
http//www.free-minds.org/women/beating.htm
And
BEATING WOMEN, OR BEATING AROUND THE BUSH, OR....Edip Yuksel
"Verse 434 of the Quran orders believers to beat their wives; so, Islam is a male dominant religion." Many of us have heard this criticism from Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. Personally, every time I read 434, I felt that something was wrong. How does God, the Most Wise order us to beat our women? What kind of solution is that? It is in contrast to the verses in which God describes marriage
"Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (3021)
Obviously, this mixed messages have bothered many contemporary translators of the Quran. To avoid the moral and intellectual problems, they tried to soften the word "beat" when they translate the verse 434. For instance, Yusuf Ali uses a merciful parentheses after "beat" to save women". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (434)
Many tried to "beat" around the bush to "beat" the problem generated by the "beat" of 434.
When I finished the Turkish translation (1991), this verse was on the top of my orange list to study carefully. Whenever I encounter a problem regarding the understanding of a Quranic verse, I remember 20114 and pray accordingly "Most Exalted is God, the only true King. Do not rush into (understanding) the Quran before it is revealed to you, an say, 'My Lord, increase my knowledge.'"Almost all of the translations have mistranslated the four key words or terms of this particular verse. These are "Qawwamune," "Faddallallahu ba'dahum ala ba'd," "Nushuzehunne," and "Fadribuhunne." In our late book, "Errors in Turkish Translations" (Istanbul, 1992) we have discussed the real meaning of these words and the motivation and reasons for mistranslating them. Here, we will focus on the last word, "Fadribuhunne."
A Famous Multi-Meaning Word
The problem comes from the word "Idribuhunne" which we used to translate as "beat them". The root of this word is "DaRaBa". If you look at any Arabic dictionary you will find a long list of meanings ascribed to this word. That list is one of the longest list in whole Arabic dictionary. It can be said that "DaRaBa" is the number-one multi-meaning word in Arabic. It has so many different meanings, we can find numerous different meanings ascribed to it in the Quran.
To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317
As you see, in Quran alone we can witness the verb "DaRaBa" having at least ten different meanings. "DaRaBa" has also other meanings which are not mentioned in the Quran. For example, in the Arabic language, you do not print money--you "DaRaBa" money, you do not multiply numbers--you "DaRaBa" numbers, you do not cease the work--you "DaRaBa" the work. In Turkish we have many verbs similar to DaRaBa, such as "tutmak", "calmak", "vurmak" etc. In English we have two verbs which are almost equivalent to "DaRaBa". These are "strike" and "beat".
Webster's Dictionary gives fourteen meanings to the verb "strike" hit (against); ignite; (of snake) bite; (of plants) (cause to) take root; attack; hook (fish); sound (time) as bell in clock etc.; affect; arrive at, come upon; enter mind of; discover (gold, oil etc.); dismantle, remove; make (coin); cease work as protest or to make demands. The same dictionary gives eight meanings to the verb "beat" strike repeatedly; overcome; surpass; stir vigorously with striking action; flap (wings); make, wear (path); throb; sail against wind.In the beginning of this article (underlined) I deliberately used "beat" in three different meanings in a single statement just to show the variety of meanings in a single word. In English, when we order someone to "beat it" we mean "get out". Similarly in Arabic, when we order someone with the commend form of "DaRaBa", that is "iDRiB", we mean "get out".
How Can We Find The Appropriate Meaning
When we encounter a multi-meaning word, we select the proper meaning according to the context, forms, and common sense. For instance, if we had have translated "DaRaBa" in 1317 as "beat" instead of "explain", the meaning would be ridiculous
. . . God thus beats the truth and falsehood." (1317)Another example of mistranslation of "DaRaBa" can be found in the translation of 3844. All the translations (except Dr. Khalifa's translation) inject a male-made story to justify their silly translation. Here is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse about Job
"And take in the hand a little grass, and strike therewith and break not (the oath)."
Yusuf Ali, in the footnote narrates the traditional story "He (Job) must have said in his haste to the woman that he would beat her he is asked now to correct her with only a wisp of grass, to show that he was gentle and humble as well as patient and constant."
However, without injecting this story, we can translate it as the following"Now, you shall travel the land to fulfill your pledge (that is to deliver the message)." We found him steadfast. What a good servant! He was a submitter. (3844)
Let's turn back to 434
Additionally, the word "Nushuz" which is generally translated as "opposition" has another meaning which can be translated as degrees of disloyalty ranging from flirtation to sexual liaison. If we study 434 carefully we will find a clue that leads us to translate that word as "flirting or cheating" or "extramarital affair" (Any word or words that reflect the range of disloyalty in marriage). The clue is the phrase before "Nushuz" as reads ". . . and observe God's commandments, even when alone in their privacy." This phrase emphasizes the importance of loyalty in marriage life.Furthermore, the same word "Nushuz" is used in 4128, but it is used to describe the misbehavior of husbands not wives as was in 434. So, the traditional translation of "Nushuz", that is, "opposition" will not fit here. In vertical relations, "opposition" cannot be a double-edged behavior. So, translators try to avoid this contradiction by ascribing just the opposite meaning of "opposition", i.e., "oppression" in verse 4128. However, the meaning of "Nushuz" as "disloyalty" is appropriate for both cases described in 434 and 4128.
A Coherent Understanding
When we read 434 we should not understand "idribuhunne" as "beat those women". We must remember that this word has many meanings. God gives us three ways of dealing with extra-marital-affair. In the beginning stage of such misbehavior husband should start from giving advice. If it does not work and she goes further and commit a proven adultery, that time husband has the right to strike them out (434 & 651).
Let's present our suggestion for the translation of verse 434
"Men traditionally take care of women, since God has endowed each of them with certain qualities and men spend from their financial resources. The righteous women are obedient (to God) and during the absence (of their husband) they honor them according to God's commandment. As for those women whom you are experiencing a fear of disloyalty from, you shall first advice them, then (if they continue) you may desert them in bed, then you may strike them out. If they obey you then don't transgress against them. God is Most High, Supreme." (434).
Beating women who are cheating is not an ultimate solution; but "striking them out" from your house is the best solution. And it is fair too.Peace
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A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.
Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.
yes it does, when necessary . there is nothing wrong with it .you yourself admitted that sometimes violence is necessary .
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A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.
Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.
yes it does, when necessary . there is nothing wrong with it .you yourself admitted that sometimes violence is necessary .
Violence, as in war or self defense, is sometimes necessary. Domestic violence, a man beating his wife, is never necessary.
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A point that seems to get lost in this discussion about the Quran and violence is that what I believe and what Christians believe and what the Bible says is irrelevant here.
No, it doesn't get lost. It is only reiterated almost everytime you post. You believe in something as 'violent' as the Bible amongst other things and yet you have the audacity to call the quran 'violent' when you can't even prove it is not in self defence? If you were an atheist, it would have been understandable.
Either the Quran endorses violence or it does not. Clearly it does.
It endorses 'violence' in the exact same way you do. In self defence. Isn't that a surprise? Why is it an issue in the quran when you don't seem to have any qualms in following what you preach yourself?
So, now the question is whether or not these "Koranic rules of fighting" cover every instance where violence is mentioned in the Quran. I do not believe they do.
Please come up with each and every verse you think is violent, so that we can try to help you with this issue of 'violence' in the quran.
Generally, people often have applied misinterpretation to justify misdeeds. So people certainly are bad in that context. I think the verse above shows that the text is bad as well in this case.
The verse above is mistranslated. Any other verses that you would like to bring regarding 'violence'?
Peace.
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Sleep well Oneway,
What the people say of the link is just grasping every straw to beat the Quran with it. This is a language issue, not a theological issue. In the arabic several translations can be made with that verse, God commands us to take the best. Some dumn translators took the worst. In the context of the verses, only the understanding of to depart can apply. So this straw is made out of air....
Peace
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oneway
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.
Be equal in your revenge; dont exceed.
They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.
And we decreed for them in it that the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.
Be equal in your revenge; dont exceed. Anyone who exceeds is unjust.
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.
Again, Life is sacred.
You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.
Can't be the first to fight.
O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.
you want it to be unfair and have a verse that says 'when someone tries to kill you do not do anything ! Let him kill you. For it is the only just way.'
and 'when someone tries to kill you, smile back at them and tell them how great they are.'you want it be illogical ? stupid? you tell me what you'd do when someone tries to kill you, are you going to smile at him?
whats the point of this thread?
another words duh its violent, Quran is a guide; a way of life. A life you won't have if you don't retaliate against someone who tries to kill you !
What do you want the Quran to endorse?
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Well, let's see how the Bible endorses violence against women and children
Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
- They will fall by the sword
- Their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and
- Their pregnant women ripped open
That is one hell of violence against women and children, what the chidlren did for them to be killed with the sword?
What the pregnant women did to have their tommies ripped open with a sword?
Those christians are so hypocrites and confused indeed, not to mention their double faces and double standards
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oneway
Again remember God does not endorse sin, and he doesn't like aggressors. So you saying that God allows domestic violence is absurd. Since God doesn't endorse aggression, or sin. Not even taking in to account the word most translators (falsely) used has MULTIPLE upon MULTIPLE meanings.
To travel, to get out 3156; 4101; 3844; 7320; 2273
To strike 260,73; 7160; 812; 2077; 2431; 2663; 3793; 474
To beat 850; 4727
To set up 4358; 5713
To give (examples) 1424,45; 1675,76,112; 1832,45; 2435; 3028,58; 3678; 3927,29; 4317; 5921; 6610,11
To take away, to ignore 435
To condemn 261
To seal, to draw over 1811
To cover 2431
To explain 1317 -
Sorry Saladin I'm just going off topic for this one, I have to address this-
you want it be illogical ? stupid? you tell me what you'd do when someone tries to kill you, are you going to smile at him?
There are some people who posted on the forum saying that is the ultimate form of 'peace' and sacrifice, that one can smile at people while getting their heads cut off. They gave an example of some monastery somewhere with monks (buddhist?) who did that. Needless to say, I think their 'plant' consumption at the time was at an all time 'high'.
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so if one tries to kill you and u stand there (as an individual) you won't be killed? is there some magic trick i don't know about?
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Apparently that's what they did and it's thought a good thing by 'some' people. The magic trick is the 'high' I was talking about lol
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on the subject of 434 read this, go a quarter of the way down where it says "Does Quran allow husbands to beat their wife?" or something similar
http//www.yuksel.org/e/books/rtq.htm
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haha, unbelievable
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peace
savage carot, sorry for mis-understanding your reply at first
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We can discuss and keep throwing mud, but the best thing is to compare the Bible, the Quran and Christian dogma side by side. WITHOUT ANY COMMENTS, LET THE THE TRUTH SHOW ITSELF WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG, the only thing i see here, are people throwing mud, we call ourselves followers of the truth, lets behave like so. That means, we have to let the truth talk for itself. THE QURAN DOESN'T NEED US TO PROVE ITSELF WITH OUR EXTRA BACKIBITING COMMENTS.
If we put the Bible, Quran and Christian dogma next to each other, we can see the comparisons and differences, that is science, and the Quranic way. So just put up all the verses of the Bible and Quran about certain violence subjects next to another, and we will see who's promoting violence. And because the Christian doctrine condemns violence, let's see how the first Christians handled it, and why. Because most Christian non-violence comes from the Stoicins-philosophers that influenced also the Buddhist and Hindu monks. So this is not Christ's teachings, but a greek-roman teaching that influenced his followers.
This is science and the most friendly and professionel way to show the truth. The Quranic way.......
Peace
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peace arnold
i agree with you
but you know how people are 'my way or the highway' thing. Blind faith, added w/ human stubbornness, and seeing what they want to see. For instance read what the site that oneway got the article from, is about
http//www.apologeticspress.org/apinfo/aboutap
So a definite BIASED source.
I wish we could all be unbiased in our way to the truth, but most people only see what they want to see.
What you are saying is right, but most people don't like the truth, they like what they WANT to like.
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That is no excuse to do the same as them. Just let the books and information talk for itself, and if the persons don't want to see it, why be bothered by it? A psychologist examined why people lied and believe lies, he said
"It seems that most people on earth, rather follow and tell lies, follow ignorance and just baseless information, this is from science to religion to how they handle their daily lives. It seems they are scared of the truth, because it brings responsibillity, with lies they can keep doing what they want....."
So it doesn't matter how and with what people come to prove their ideas, our behaviour should never be influenced by this. We follow the truth, and are not pushed of that track by some stubborn people. Drop the throwing mud, or just as worse as them. Let the truth speak for itself, only Bible, Quran and Christian dogma texts, no comments from us next to it. The truth will say more then we can ever do...
Peace
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I think their 'plant' consumption at the time was at an all time 'high'.
I believe you mean the hemp plant? wink