Armed Conflict, Violence, and the Quran
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peace,
No need for last words.
Peace
why? ahh! got it, truth hurts ....
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peace,
No need for last words.
Peace
truth hurts .... ??
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I have already showed enough. So indeed no need for last words...........
"It seems that most people on earth, rather follow and tell lies, follow ignorance and just baseless information, this is from science to religion to how they handle their daily lives. It seems they are scared of the truth, because it brings responsibillity, with lies they can keep doing what they want....."
Psychologist after research on why people lie or believes lies.
Peace
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A word on this violence issue within the Quran.
It is violence to restore peace.
exactly . do u still see any problem in it , Oneway ? problem other than the contradiction with the "turn the other cheek" teachings in the Bible ?
peace.
Peace saladin,
The broader handling of violence in the Quran includes permission for revenge (within bounds and with forgiveness preferred, but it is permitted nonetheless). Revenge is punitive and retaliatory, not purely defensive.
I've been trying to keep Christian-specific notions separate here, but as mentioned in the discussion with arnoldyasin, I'm not sure its really possible to do that. Ultimately this is a discussion about whether something covered in the Quran is right or wrong and our respective notions of right and wrong are inseparable from our respective faiths.
For example, the Quran permits bounded revenge, Christ's teachings in the Bible do not. Arguing which view is correct just turns into the much broader discussion of Christianity vs Islam, which isn't useful.
Thus, I think it would be better if my approach to this forum going forward focused primarily on finding common ground and learning from others here rather than debating particular points of Islam that I find troubling. (Though maybe I'll still debate politics from time to time in the other topic areas here smile)
Regards,
oneway -
Peace Oneway,
Getting revenge on a mass murderer or someone who abuses childeren sexually, or ............ is the base for creating JUSTICE and social order. This is the minimum border. BUT IT HAS TO BE JUST. JUSTICE IS THE MINIMUM.
If the individul or society can evolve to the point to forgive, it approaches the deeper territories of THE KINGDOM OF GOD. FORGIVENESS IS THE UNLIMITED MAXIMUM.
The one who Keeps tracking, will find.
peace,
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I'm not saying someone who rejects hadith is unreasonable, just that people who think information from history, e.g. regarding the life of Mohammed, as well as from hadiths, can also make reasonable interpretations informed by that extra-Quranic material.
The point in this part of the discussion is simply that our respective beliefs largely govern which means of seeking truth feels correct to us. I think you have to include the historical context when seeking the correct interpretation. That doesn't mean I think "Quran only" arguments are unreasonable, they just aren't persuasive to me.
An unreasonable argument would be one that lacks rationality or is self contradicting or employs solely ad hominem arguments, and so on. I'm not saying any of the arguments here have those kinds of problems, just that they are not persuasive to me because I'm approaching the questions from a different angle. And the "different angles" we bring to the discussion derive from our respective beliefs, and you can't argue against belief.
Thanks,
oneway
Thank you for the reply oneway, and differentiating between unreasonable and persuasive. That definitely clears up some stuff. Now what if I told you quran discourages the use of other hadith? Would that obvious contradiction change anything?Peace be with you
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Peace Oneway,
Getting revenge on a mass murderer or someone who abuses childeren sexually, or ............ is the base for creating JUSTICE and social order. This is the minimum border. BUT IT HAS TO BE JUST. JUSTICE IS THE MINIMUM.
If the individul or society can evolve to the point to forgive, it approaches the deeper territories of THE KINGDOM OF GOD. FORGIVENESS IS THE UNLIMITED MAXIMUM.
The one who Keeps tracking, will find.
peace,
Thanks, alpha97,
I think revenge is more of an individual, rather than societal, notion. In the large there is certainly justice in society punishing criminals, but the question of personal revenge, regardless of the offense, is more in line with what I was talking about.
Good points nonetheless.
Thanks,
oneway -
I'm not saying someone who rejects hadith is unreasonable, just that people who think information from history, e.g. regarding the life of Mohammed, as well as from hadiths, can also make reasonable interpretations informed by that extra-Quranic material.
The point in this part of the discussion is simply that our respective beliefs largely govern which means of seeking truth feels correct to us. I think you have to include the historical context when seeking the correct interpretation. That doesn't mean I think "Quran only" arguments are unreasonable, they just aren't persuasive to me.
An unreasonable argument would be one that lacks rationality or is self contradicting or employs solely ad hominem arguments, and so on. I'm not saying any of the arguments here have those kinds of problems, just that they are not persuasive to me because I'm approaching the questions from a different angle. And the "different angles" we bring to the discussion derive from our respective beliefs, and you can't argue against belief.
Thanks,
oneway
Thank you for the reply oneway, and differentiating between unreasonable and persuasive. That definitely clears up some stuff. Now what if I told you quran discourages the use of other hadith? Would that obvious contradiction change anything?Peace be with you
Its only an obvious contradiction if you accept the Quran a priori. smile
Regards,
oneway -
Thank you for the reply oneway, and differentiating between unreasonable and persuasive. That definitely clears up some stuff. Now what if I told you quran discourages the use of other hadith? Would that obvious contradiction change anything?
Peace be with you
Its only an obvious contradiction if you accept the Quran a priori. smileRegards,
oneway
Not at all. It just defeats the purpose though doesn't it? If you believed in the bible as the word of god without a doubt and with verification, and (just hypothetically) the bible said don't follow quran... would you use quran to verify or authenticate the bible? ? -
Peace
I think the way we each judge truth is intimately tied to our system of belief, not just the beliefs themselves.
It should be the other way round, truth leading beliefs, but as idolfree says, no need of belief when we have verified truth, they are opposite, truth = we know; we don't know = we believe.
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Thank you for the reply oneway, and differentiating between unreasonable and persuasive. That definitely clears up some stuff. ) Now what if I told you quran discourages the use of other hadith? Would that obvious contradiction change anything?
Peace be with you
Its only an obvious contradiction if you accept the Quran a priori. smileRegards,
oneway
Not at all. It just defeats the purpose though doesn't it? If you believed in the bible as the word of god without a doubt and with verification, and (just hypothetically) the bible said don't follow quran... would you use quran to verify or authenticate the bible? ?They key to your hypothetical is "with verification". It becomes very difficult to isolate each avenue of debate from core faith, because what one of us sees as verification, the other may not. I'm arguing that the way we all define what counts as acceptable verification is colored by our respective systems of belief.
Regards,
oneway -
A word on this violence issue within the Quran.
It is violence to restore peace.
exactly . do u still see any problem in it , Oneway ? problem other than the contradiction with the "turn the other cheek" teachings in the Bible ?
peace.
Peace saladin,
The broader handling of violence in the Quran includes permission for revenge (within bounds and with forgiveness preferred, but it is permitted nonetheless). Revenge is punitive and retaliatory, not purely defensive.
861 If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
2193 ...If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the aggressors.
490 ....Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.
if they stop , we stop . very defensive .
peace.
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I have already showed enough.
You bet ..
"It seems that most people on earth, rather follow and tell lies, follow ignorance and just baseless information, this is from science to religion to how they handle their daily lives. It seems they are scared of the truth, because it brings responsibillity, with lies they can keep doing what they want....."
Psychologist after research on why people lie or believes lies.
Peace
Hmmm ... quite a hackneyed 'lecture' but thanks anyway. After all you did confirm my point. Truth scares .. isn't too different from truth hurts.
Peace -
Did you read that oneway????
Your NATURAL INSTINCT will lead you to violence, if threatened.
If natural instinct were the guiding factor for us much of what is considered sin by both our faiths would be permitted.
Cheers,
oneway.Please do provide an example of our natural instinct being 'sin'
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Greetings,
- We reached consensus here that the Quran endorses violence
This is not EXACTLY the case, but for only those who want to pick and choose like the lawyers who stop the witnesses just after hearing the word they are looking for, without listening the whole story.
Anwar Azim
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Did you read that oneway????
Your NATURAL INSTINCT will lead you to violence, if threatened.
If natural instinct were the guiding factor for us much of what is considered sin by both our faiths would be permitted.
Cheers,
oneway.Please do provide an example of our natural instinct being 'sin'
Selfishness, lust, greed...These are parts of human nature that we work to overcome by striving for spiritual maturity.
Regards,
oneway -
Hello, yfn123,
Greetings,
- We reached consensus here that the Quran endorses violence
This is not EXACTLY the case, but for only those who want to pick and choose like the lawyers who stop the witnesses just after hearing the word they are looking for, without listening the whole story.
Anwar Azim
Interesting perspective considering you did exactly that by extracting only that first point from my post to support your conclusion
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We reached consensus here that the Quran endorses violence
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We moved from there to discuss the "Koranic rules of fighting" and their general applicability in explaining the qualified circumstances under which the Quran endorses violence
Some like to respond to the fiirst post in a thread ignoring all of the discussion that happened since that first post where the original author may have already conceded the points they wished to argue against or apologized for coming across too harshly, and so on, while clarifying the position in detail through the debate.
Similarly, as in this case, people will extract one point to support an ad hominem argument.
I fully agree that neither approach is useful.
Regards,
oneway -
Did you read that oneway????
Your NATURAL INSTINCT will lead you to violence, if threatened.
If natural instinct were the guiding factor for us much of what is considered sin by both our faiths would be permitted.
Cheers,
oneway.Please do provide an example of our natural instinct being 'sin'
Selfishness, lust, greed...These are parts of human nature that we work to overcome by striving for spiritual maturity.
Regards,
onewaySelfishness
Yes it is survival of the fittest. But given time, evolution (of thoughts as well) suggests that mankind will form tribes for survival. In consequence they MUST look after each other for better survival. Religion already adopts this technique, i.e. "Do unto others as you'd have done on yourself".
Lust
Lust exists in all situations and is only outlawed in Christianity, not in Islam. In christianity it is called the original sin, when you are born you are born with sin roll . In Islam it is not outlawed, it is a reuirement for the survival of the species.
Greed
See selfishness, it's the same thing.
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Did you read that oneway????
Your NATURAL INSTINCT will lead you to violence, if threatened.
If natural instinct were the guiding factor for us much of what is considered sin by both our faiths would be permitted.
Cheers,
oneway.Please do provide an example of our natural instinct being 'sin'
Selfishness, lust, greed...These are parts of human nature that we work to overcome by striving for spiritual maturity.
Regards,
onewaySelfishness
Yes it is survival of the fittest. But given time, evolution (of thoughts as well) suggests that mankind will form tribes for survival. In consequence they MUST look after each other for better survival. Religion already adopts this technique, i.e. "Do unto others as you'd have done on yourself".
Lust
Lust exists in all situations and is only outlawed in Christianity, not in Islam. In christianity it is called the original sin, when you are born you are born with sin roll . In Islam it is not outlawed, it is a reuirement for the survival of the species.
Greed
See selfishness, it's the same thing.
Lust isn't what is meant by the "original sin" in Christianity, but that really isn't relevant here. If lust were not a sin in Islam and you followed your natural instincts stemming from lust you would fornicate, be promiscuous, etc., without any spiritual concern. That sort of behavior isn't condoned in Islam, right? There's another thread on this forum discussing averting one's gaze to avoid/control lustful tendencies per Quranic instruction, so it seems Christianity and Islam are similar there, but please correct me if I've misunderstood.
Thanks,
oneway