sex with the captives?
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Peace elena. That is the point i was trying to make...We dont neccessarily need a book to tell us what we know is definately wrong.The book is there as a collection of wisdom and thoughts and an attempt to describe reality and morals from the previous generations understanding,at that time.. Universal facts are found by observing life and from your conscience.We need to use universal facts and our conscience when interpreting the quran,or any scripture/book.
peace all. -
peace enquirer,
Thank you brother for your rational input, I agree with it almost completely, there is indeed no short cut for what you learn through your own experience/observation/analyses in life.
To run any society in a peaceful manner, some general laws have to be observed/obeyed, I believe the essence/importance of these laws now, before, and forever will be the same. They are described in every scripture/orally transmitted, and almost every humane being is familiar with these general laws even if he/she has never read any scripture.
I agree with you that we don?t need to learn Arabic to understand the meanings of honesty, justice, tolerance, love or other general laws/emotions, but to understand some issues knowledge of Arabic could be very handy.
Thank you once again.
Peace. -
paz Elena,
you wrote
The first part of my question yes, the second part, not yet (if you want to know if those practices were correct in the past because the quran mentions or allows them)
I want to know why these practices were permitted in the quran, because I absolutely don?t like the idea of permitting the strong to exploit his position and force the weaker to surrender to his sexual desires.
agentxxx wrote
If sex with the captives, crucifixion, cutting of hands etc are mentioned in the scripture, we must admit it and try to figure out the logical reasons as to why they were allowed.ElenaWe must admit that the quran actually mentions them or
We have to be honest and admit it, IF IT IS A REALITY.
Elenawe must admit too that those practices are right since quran (if) allows them?
No sister, sorry to say even if they are allowed in quran I will not say that it is/was right.
ElenaAnd, what logical reasons can there be in sex with slave girls?
This is what I wanted to find out myself? But the focused instead shifted to the right or wrong translations. The only reasons I can think of are the environment/period/social setup of the Arabs of that time .
ElenaHow can you have any doubt that it is not right? depending on a book/revelation? how a book /revelation can make it to look correct, more when you dont know the content of the book well? (the content in general, not only about this subject)
I think you intended to say wrong
Sis this is my original post please read it.
Peace all,
235-Who abstain from sex 236-Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond OR (THE CAPTIVES) whom their right hands possess for (in their case) they are free from blame 237-But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors. 7029-And those who guard their chastity
7030-Except with their wives and THE (CAPTIVES) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not to be blamed 7031-But those who trespass beyond this are transgressors.
Indeed they are transgressors, who while having four wives and captives would still look for their satisfaction somewhere else ,they deserved to be lashed in public.
324-And all married women (are forbidden unto you SAVE THOSE (CAPTIVES) whom your right hands possess.
no regards for married women from the other side.
How many captive/concubines are/were allowed in Quran/islam? Or does it depend upon the status of a person? Why sex with the captives was allowed? Was it to add a juicy incentive for the jihadis? Can it still be practiced?
are these verses the bases of COITUS INTERRUPTUS practiced by the jihadis with their captives as defined in the hadiths?All these verses depict the male dominated tribal culture?s psyche where killing / plundering others and taking their females as sex slaves was considered normal .
How can a captive willingly indulge in sexual activity with someone who is directly/indirectly responsible for the murder of her spouse/family/tribe? I think it is an extreme form of misuse of power. I don?t know why the almighty/most gracious allowed this..?
2433-??.. BUT FORCE NOT YOUR MAIDS TO PROSTITUTION WHEN THEY DESIRE CHASTITY in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them).
Ironically no punishment is suggested in the above verse for those who forced their captives into prostitution.
may be now I have made myself clear ?
Peace.
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Peace Agent
may be now I have made myself clear
yes, I got it ) and I agree with everything, I was confused by the 'logical reasons' possibility, but it is clear now.Did you see the Muhammad Zafrulla Khan translation?
-- there shall be no blame on them in respect of their wives and those under their control; but whoever seeks anything beyond that is a transgressor --
just 'under their control' It is so ample expression.Elena
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peace elena,
you wrote
yes, I got it
mucho gracias
elena
Did you see the Muhammad Zafrulla Khan translation?
-- there shall be no blame on them in respect of their wives and those under their control; but whoever seeks anything beyond that is a transgressor --
just 'under their control' It is so ample expression.yes sis i have and here are some others for you to see.
023006
SALE--1734
Or the WHICH THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS;PALMER--1880
Or WHAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESSRODWELL--1861
Or THE SLAVES WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESSMAULANA MOHAMMED ALI--1917
Or THOSE, WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,PICKTHAL--1930
Or the (SLAVES) THAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,YUSUFALI--1934
Or (the captives) WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,-SHERALI--1955
Or WHAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,ARBERRY--1955
And WHAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS OWNDARYABADI--1957
And THOSE WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS OWNSHAKIR--1959
Or THOSE WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,MUHAMMAD TAQI-UD-DIN AL-HILALI ?MOSIN KHAN--1977
Or (THE CAPTIVES AND SLAVES) THAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,SARWAR--1981
And SLAVE-GIRLS.SAYYID ABULALA MAWDUDI-TRANS- ZAFAR ANSARI--1967
Or THOSE WHOM THEY RIGHTFULLY POSSESS;MUHAMMAD AYUB KHAN
Or WHAT THEIR RIGHT HANDS OWN,AL-MUNTADA ALISLAMI
Or THOSE THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,ANEESUDDIN
Or THOSE WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESS,HASSAN QARIBULLAH AND AHMED DARWISH--2001
And WHAT THEIR RIGHT HAND POSSESS,OMAR AHMED
Or (the captives) WHOM THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESSM.A. QADRI
OR THE LEGAL BONDWOMEN THAT THEY POSSESS,MAULANA SHAH AHMED RAZA KHAN
Or lawful handmaids WHO ARE THE PROPERTY OF THEIR HANDABDUL QASIM
Or THOSE THEIR RIGHT HANDS POSSESSIRVING--1985
and WHOMEVER THEIR RIGHT HANDS MAY CONTROL,ZAFARULLAH KHAN--1971
and those under their control;GHULLAM AHMED PERVAIZ
OR SLAVE MAIDSMUHAMMED AHMED- SAMEERA
Or WHAT THEIR RIGHTS/OATHS OWNED/POSSESSED (i.e. caregivers under contract)RASHAD--1985
OR THOSE WHO ARE RIGHTFULLY THEIRS,FREE MINDS
Or THOSE WHO ARE THEIR DEPENDANTS,BIJAN MOEINIAN
Only with their own wives BASED UPON DIVINE LAWS.MUHAMMAD ASAD--1980
That is, those whom they rightfully possessABDUL MANNAN OMER
that is those whom they justly and rightfully own in proper wedlock,SHABBIR AHMED--2003
That is, those whom they each other rightfully possess.peace.
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peace all,
MUHAMMED ASAD
236
with any but their spouses - that is, those whom they rightfully possessBut then he himself uses aw as a permissible alternative in 43 and translates MMA as captives taken in a war in God?s cause? ?
4 3
?.. OR THOSE WHOM YOU RIGHTFULLY POSSESS.** This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.**Lit., "whom your right hands possess" - i.e., FROM AMONG THE CAPTIVES TAKEN IN A WAR IN GOD'S CAUSE (regarding which see notes on surah 2, notes 167 and 168, and surah 8, note 72). It is obvious that the phrase "two, or three, or four but if you have reason to fear...", etc. is a parenthetic clause relating to both the free women mentioned in the first part of the sentence and to FEMALE SLAVES - for both these nouns are governed by the imperative verb "marry". Thus, the whole sentence has this meaning "Marry from among women such as are lawful to you, OR THOSE WHOM YOU RIGHTFULLY POSSESS ?
Peace.
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peace agentxxx. I admire your honesty and courage in standing up for what is right,even if it seems the quran is saying something which is objectionable. (of course,the objectionable view could be due to mistranslation/misinterpretation.)
Take care.
peace. -
peace enquirer,
you wrote
I admire your honesty and courage in standing up for what is right,even if it seems the quran is saying something which is objectionable.
It?s easy to be honest and courageous on the net..wink But thanks anyway.
enquirer-(of course,the objectionable view could be due to mistranslation/misinterpretation.)
I agree it could be due to mistranslation/interpretation and that is the reason I am trying to look into every translation and tafseer I can find and then compare them for better understanding.
TAFSEER IBN KATHIR
IBN KATHIR (Arabic ) born in Busra, Syria in 1301. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Islamic world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today.
tafseer- 43
http//www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=10435Allah's statement,
(But if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or what your right hands possess.) The Ayah commands, if you fear that you will not be able to do justice between your wives by marrying more than one, then marry only one wife, OR SATISFY YOURSELF WITH ONLY FEMALE CAPTIVES, for it is not OBLIGATORY to treat them equally, rather it is RECOMMENDED. So if one does so, that is good, and if not, there is no harm on him. In another Ayah, Allah said,
TAFSEER IBN KATHIR -424
http//www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=10803Forbidding Women Already Married, Except for Female Slaves
Allah said,
(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.) The Ayah means, you are prohibited from marrying women who are already married,
(except those whom your right hands possess) except those whom you acquire through war, FOR YOU ARE ALLOWED SUCH WOMEN AFTER MAKING SURE THEY ARE NOT PREGNANT. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and WE DISLIKED HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THEM BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD HUSBANDS. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed, i.e.
(Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess). CONSEQUENTLY, WE HAD SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH THESE WOMEN.'' This is the wording collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa'i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih. Allah's statement,
(Thus has Allah ordained for you) means, this prohibition was ordained for you by Allah. Therefore, adhere to Allah's Book, do not transgress His set limits, and adhere to His legislation and decrees.
TAFSEER IBN KATHIR -236
http//www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=23&tid=34728(And those who guard their private parts. Except from their wives and their right hand possessions, for then, they are free from blame. But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors.) means, those who protect their private parts from unlawful actions and do not do that which Allah has forbidden; fornication and homosexuality, and do not approach anyone except the wives whom Allah has made permissible for them or their right hand possessions from the captives. One who seeks what Allah has made permissible for him is not to be blamed and there is no sin on him. Allah says
(They are free from blame. But whoever seeks beyond that) meaning, other than a wife or slave girl,
TAFSEER IBN KATHIR ?7030
http//www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=70&tid=55249(And those who guard their private part (chastity).) meaning, they keep their private parts away from that which is forbidden and they prevent their private parts from being put into other than what Allah has allowed them to be in. This is why Allah says,
(Except from their wives or their right hand possessions) meaning, from their female slaves.
(for (then) they are not blameworthy. But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers.) The explanation of this has already preceded at the beginning of Surat Al-Mu'minun, and therefore does not need to be repeated here. Allah said,
The past translators are consistent and clear in their translation regarding MMA. The present day translators are inconsistent and confused in their translation concerning MMA.
Translation -Bijan Moeinian
4*3 An if your common properties are mixed up in such a way that it is difficult to distinguish what belongs to who, then you may marry them (or their mothers) up to four woman at a time, if such an arrangement reduces your financial burden.
Bigan doesn?t bother to translate MMA in the above verse and completely ignores it.
23*6-The believers are those who have sex only with their own wives BASED UPON DIVINE LAWS.
70-30 The patient ones are those who do not engage in sexual activities except with their wives AND THE ONES THAT GOD HAS APPROVED FOR THEM.
He too uses aw as a permissible alternative in 2930
4*24 It is also against God's law to marry married women, UNLESS THEY HAVE FLED THE TYRANNY OF THEIR DISBELIEVER HUSBANDS who are at war with you?.
4*25 Those who do not have the mean to marry properly, may, then, marry a believing woman whom his right hand possess (a slave woman or the one who does not have materialistic concerns) ?.
agrees here with the traditional translation.
I think the reason for the present day translators variation regarding the meanings of MMA, could be because of the fact that they live in an era, where the views about slavery/captives are almost opposite to what they were during the time of the past translators.take care,
peace.