The Quran and the Prophet
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Peace darbari. I thought you had to submit to god to be a muslim. Are you equating your god with the quran?
Peace all.peace enquirer.
we submit to God by submitting to His commands in the Quran . we obey Him by Obeying the messenger . and the messenger delivered the Quran . -
I believe the universal laws can be found just by life-experience itself, and the quran or any other books can be useful but are not absolutely needed. The books are just mens ideas of universal law codified in written form...You and me can learn from these ideas but we can also come up with these ideas ourself, and even correct/ improve/up-date these ideas ourself, or even come up with new ideas.. Most of the books contain some wisdom, but we have to check them for mistakes and find the truth for ourself. I dont believe the quran is the last or best or most complete book.. Its just a potentially good book for some.... A book is only as good as the reader.... Some of the bai-hullahs book has some more relevant ideas than some of the quran has for todays society/context/circumstances. The quran can be used as a kick-start to thinking and acting morally, but not as something that you refer to obsessively or uncritically, or to the exclusion of other knowledge. The quran is not the final word on everthing,nor the best word on everything. The quran is a good book for some, but not all.
I see the ultimate destiny of taking the life-experience as the supreme source of knowing the universal laws. From my life-experience I have got the following universal laws
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Fight, by means of might and tricks, all weaker entities who belong to the category ?NOT ME or NOT MINE? to snatch their property, possessions to enjoy it by yourself.
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Escape, to survive, from the stronger ones when they attack pursuant to the principle 1 above.
I got confused. Every modern philosophy and religion has got some name and some definite structure. But it seems that the ?God Alone?ers are not in agreement in any definite structure of ideology, source of knowledge, principles for making decisions. One takes Quran as a source and at the same time other says the contrary. One says Quran is from Allah, other says no to it.
I am not getting your points. Is it all about hearing ones own mind only and knowing ?universal laws? as personal experience? Does Logic have any validity in your school of thinking?
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Peace prashant-kumar. True conscience and direct experience of 'universal' laws is logic,my friend. . We all use our conscience at times,whether we admit it or not,the trick is to try to use it rationally all the time. Do whats best for your own conscience my friend. )
Peace. -
Peace Elke. I cant say its my phrase,..i took it off another poster. ) But its a very good quote,i agree.
peace. -
peace prashant_kumar and all, is this really the only universal law that youre capable of observing? So you not see the harmony in the planets in their computed orbits. Do you not see the universe in yourself? Do you not see the animals applying the very basic of harmony? Yes they have survival of the fittest, to ensure bad genes get weeded out, but they always adapt to the area they are in. With a few exception that are just that, exception.
Man is the only thing that we are aware of, who can chose to be in harmony with all, or chose not to. As of now, we have chosen not to be, wherever we go we multiply insanely, and utterly destroy the very foundation of our lifes.
you dont see animals attack out of spite, only survival. You dont see animals kill because a bear is more of a believer than a deer, only becaue the bear is hungry.
and it goes on. Harmony is adapting to the situation youre in with the environment, humans are given this as free choice, and thus we have chosen to be utterly ignorant, perform silly rituals, out from the silly notion that God is a person. A god person, who gets angry, and fierce etc.. while at the same time the scripture tells us that allthat happens to us, will be OUR OWN workings comming back to us. Terms such as punishment have little meaning if you do not understand, that YOU are the problem AND the solution.
To view survival of the fittest in this negative light is to me silly and extremely narrowminded. Ciggy, it is good to see you )
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Peace all. Some laws that work for me in my direct observation and life-experience of the world;
a)The strong should protect/educate the weak.
b)deflect,defuse and try to enlighten the stronger ones who seek to attack/oppress you or the weaker members,pursuant to principle a)... winkBeautiful quote magi;
'Terms such as punishment have little meaning if you do not understand that, YOU are the problem AND the solution'. idea idea idea
peace all. -
understanding the Quran is not enough. muslim means "submitter". so u will have to submit to the Quran to be a good muslim.
we submit to God by submitting to His commands in the Quran. we obey Him by Obeying the messenger. and the messenger delivered the Quran.This point I missed. A muslim is he who submits to Allah. Submission to Allah means accepting the entire Quran as Allahs message and applying it in entire real life activities.
Now in order to be muslim one need to read and understand the Quran. Otherwise how can one apply it in life?
Is it not correct that the Quran should be treated as the prime and first source of knowledge required to prosper in life as a Muslim? I am not denying other possible sources, like rational thinking, listening to heart and consciousness, natural sciences, history etc.
However you have the Quran, and you know its the last update. How come you don?t read that then? I mean if you need to ask....
It?s a pretty nice and strong appeal from rational point. I am reading the Quran. But I am having some problem with it that I wish to discuss with you all.
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Peace prashnt-kumar, all,
Quran very often invites us to look to at the book of nature and get a good sight of creation!
Many think that Quran means to think about it , so they go thinking while sitting in a room!! !Going through book of creation by walking in it and watching it, affects one,s heart. it elevates the level of consciousness. It creates a sense of AWE. The reason that two of the prayers are placed close to sun rise and sun set is to get aware of the mightyness of creation and its rythm. It elevates the belief into faith.
peace,
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Peace and greetings to alpha97 and all.
The Quran invites us to look at the Book of Nature. Does it imply that we should look into the Book of Nature, putting aside the Quran, for all the universal laws that govern human life and its destiny?
The Quran invites us to look into the Book of History too. It does not, too, imply that we should put aside the Quran and look into the Book of History to find out there from all necessary universal laws that determine our future.
And we shall follow the laws we come up with the Book of Nature and the Book of History and we shall consider our discoveries as the final. Or we may follow those laws with a skeptical attitude for future rectification. Is this it you want to say?
From your argument I see that you look at the Book of Nature because the Quran said so. So you actually took the Quran as the primary source. It may also have a different implication as mentioned below.
I may put forward an argument from the Book of Nature to prove a law of the Quran while the Quran is my prime source. I can also do the contrary. I may take the Book of Nature as the primary source and put forward an argument from the Quran to justify this.
Are you putting the argument from the Quran to prove that the Book of Nature is to be taken as the prime source where from we shall derive all the universal laws? And the Quran shall be ignored or rejected if we get at a law from the Book of Nature that contradicts the law of Quran.
We do not put our students straight in the labs to discover the universal laws by themselves when the laws are already discovered and discussed. There are good reasons for it. If I get the laws in the Quran, why shall I wait for the scientists to discover the laws and take the risk of falling into errors of the scientists?
My question was not whether Quran asked us to look into the Book of Nature. My question is regarding the priority between the two Books. Which is to get the priority? Do you think that all the ontological truths and laws that govern human life and its destiny has been discovered successfully by the readers of the Book of Nature? Do you think that it has been possible by the intellect and logic?
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peace.
understanding the Quran is not enough. muslim means "submitter". so u will have to submit to the Quran to be a good muslim.
we submit to God by submitting to His commands in the Quran. we obey Him by Obeying the messenger. and the messenger delivered the Quran.This point I missed. A muslim is he who submits to Allah. Submission to Allah means accepting the entire Quran as Allahs message and applying it in entire real life activities.
exactly.
Now in order to be muslim one need to read and understand the Quran. Otherwise how can one apply it in life?
true.
Is it not correct that the Quran should be treated as the prime and first source of knowledge required to prosper in life as a Muslim? I am not denying other possible sources, like rational thinking, listening to heart and consciousness, natural sciences, history etc.
very true . the Quran is the Criterion/Furqan for judging all other info .
peace.
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We do not put our students straight in the labs to discover the universal laws by themselves when the laws are already discovered and discussed. There are good reasons for it. If I get the laws in the Quran, why shall I wait for the scientists to discover the laws and take the risk of falling into errors of the scientists?
exactly . u might find these links helpful
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/soc.htm
http//www.geocities.com/justiceparadigm/peace.
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peace Prashant
About what you said, the only way we can find the truth is through experience. That's the only way we can truly learn. By nature, that's how we learn, but books like the quran make it EASIER for us by giving us laws that we can verify and follow. We don't have to discover them for ourselves.
For example, the only way a person would know that taking drugs is bad for them is if they take drugs. Then, that person writes down in a book that taking drugs is bad for you so that his sons and daughters can benefit from his experience. All they have to do is verify his laws using external knowledge. If they can't do that, then it's back to finding the laws the hard way. The hard way is in some way also the easy way, because you really know the answer. -
Peace and greetings to phoenix1 and all.
From the Quran I have got the following ideas regarding Islam and the Quran.
Islam is a science. Islam is the science of nature comprising all worlds including the phenomenological world where we live as a part of it. Human beings are endowed with the capability to distort the universe including themselves. If they adopt this course, it will lead them to agony, humiliation and deformation in the future which they will not be able to escape. Human beings are vested with the responsibility to evolve themselves and the universe in accordance with the true nature ordained by Allah, which will lead them towards peace, honor, beauty and harmony.
So in one sense, the source of the religion named Islam is the nature upon which Allah created man and the worlds.
Human intellect is endowed with the capability to find out the laws of the phenomenological world. But the ontological truths and the laws that determine the endless future of human beings are not within the grasp of his intellect to discover with sufficient certainty. Allah disclosed these ontological truths and the laws to man through his prophets. The prophets receive such messages without any error or doubt. Such messages are not a result of their own endeavor like a scientist discovering a law of nature. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the last in the line of prophethood. The Quran contains the messages from Allah received by Muhammad. It discloses to man the ontological truths and the laws of man?s true nature.
So in the ultimate sense, the source of Islam is Allah, the creator, the evolver of the worlds and of mankind, and the designer of the laws by which He creates and evolves.
In this sense, the Quran contains a subset of the laws of nature. But the distinction of these laws is that it can not be discovered by human intellect with certainty. And therefore, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad are described as the mercy of Allah to the worlds.
If this is true, the Quran is not one of the many useful books, rather it is THE BOOK without which we can not do; and the prophet is not one of the many useful leaders, rather he is THE GUIDE without whom we can not do.
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Peace parshant-kumar and all,
Two key-words here
Primary source and Law. Your preassumption is that one should look for a primary source to search for LAWS. and once he has extracted these laws and follows them , then he is guided. This mechanism will give you a certain BIAS leading to a certain interpretation from QURAN.My emphasis differs from this. I believe in a different mechanism which leads to guidance.
I believe that till the torch of FAITH is not ignited in one,s heart, there is no BOOK or LAW that can guide . (2-2)
The most repeated subject in QURAN are NOT the LAWS or instructions. they are about
The IGNITION of HEART.
It is about attaining FAITH of HIS PRESENCE.
It is about attaining faith of THE DAY OF RESURRECTION and the status of our SOULS.
It is about GROWING our FORGIVENESS, JUSTICE, COMPASSION and WISDOM.Tools that Quran offers for this are
PRAYERS to become thankfull and positive about existence and humbling our SOULS.
REMEMBRANCE of HIS beautiful attributes to generate them in our SOUL.
Practicing Compassion, justice and forgiveness toward others.Once one reaches this state of FAITH IN HIS HEART, ONE do not need to worry about the source or law or..... THEY WILL COME UNTO him/her.
peace,
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Peace alpha97 and all.
it will probably take a couple of days to say something in response to what you have said.
Sorry for the inconveniance.
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Peace phoenix1 and alpha97,very good understandings. I feel that no matter what book you read(the quran or nature.),if you dont use your god-given natural morality and intelligence it will be of only minor benefit. I dont believe that the quran necessarily explains or teaches things to us that we cannot learn from alternative sources. The criterian is not the quran(the quran is a tool of knowledge.),the criterion is your own conscience/heart,and how you use your heart/conscience with the knowledge you seek,and come across..
Peace all. -
Peace,
Yes, enquirer, that is for a part true what you say, but it took the western philosophers 2000 years to come up with even the little basis, that was already in the Quran for 1400 years. Womens right to vote, alimony with divorce, social welfare, the obligation to investigate nature through science, democracy and so on. So what you say is partly untrue, it took 2000 years of violence before people acknwoledged the basic truths in life, that they already could have found in the Quran, which some also did. The declaration of independence was put up by Freemasons who were directly refering to the basic rights inside the Quran, these statements can be found in history that they copied partly the Quranic rights. You say book of nature, but what you should say is, the human history of 3000 years. Because the exact ways of how to use your concience and instinct of freedom takes trail and error before you get the right way of applying these given concience. The Quran already gives a push and advise of where to find the best ways of applying these 'instincts'.
Peace
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Peace arnoldyasin. Your analysis does not cover christianity,hinduism,taoism,confucism,ancient indigenous religions or buddhism which came well before the quran,and established morals and social rights before muhammed. Why just state 'western philosophers'? What about eastern philosophers? And since the quran has been revealed can you honestly say that morality and social justice are applied in 'muslim countries' or that the quran inspires beautiful morality?(eg saudi arabia and the taliban claim they follow the quran.)
Your conscience can use these scriptures to apply good morals,but the scriptures themselves are useless without using your conscience.
I feel your analysis is very biased and flawed. You seem to think the quran was the only book that brought peace or benefit to man,while ignoring the bible,torah,bhagvad gita,pali canon and some of the good works of earlier religions and philosophies. The quran is not 'superman'.
Peace all. -
peace all
agree with Enquirer here. The quran wasn't the only book that preached peace and justice. If morality was limited to those people who read the quran, then there would be very little good people on earth. The quran's a great book, but what's more important than the quran is NATURE, or God's creation. We can put everything against nature to find out whether it's true or not. The quran and everyother book or saying has to go through the same process.
The scriptures provide us with hypothesis, we need to test them.
If there's no scripture, we have to come up with our own hypothesis.And prashant, can you give me an example of one of those ontological truths that the quran contains?