Fate of the qur'aan rejecters
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Peace darbari. I dont think this forum is only to talk from the quran. I quote from the quran when the verse is true,or to prove that you are contradicting your own book. If you think the quran is perfect and easy to prove,then you or anyone else please do so. Some of the verses you quote i dont comment on because they are irrelevent,too literal,out of context or just irrational.
Do you think muhammed was afraid to answer questions which were tough?... Beacause i feel some in here are afraid to open their minds and let go of their irrational theories derived from a supposedly complete,perfect book...
Peace all. -
peace.
Peace darbari. I dont think this forum is only to talk from the quran. I quote from the quran when the verse is true,or to prove that you are contradicting your own book.
but when someone replies and quotes verses of the koran to show that he is infact not contradicting his own book , u just say "koran is not the word of God!! this proves nothing!!" LOL .
If you think the quran is perfect and easy to prove,then you or anyone else please do so.
so u think no one has tried to prove it before on this forum ? many have tried , but we cant help those who dont want to see the proof .
Some of the verses you quote i dont comment on because they are irrelevent,too literal,out of context or just irrational.
for example ? like u said "why God didnt protect his previous revealed books?" (a wrong concept among muslims) , i replied and showed u the verses telling that Koran is the only revealed book . what was so irrelevent in those verses ? or when u said that Koran allows for ppl to follow the Gospel and other books, and i showed u that i doesnt ? what is so irrelevant ?
peace.
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Peace darbaari,
You wrote
as i have already quoted from the koran , that koran is the only book revealed to the prophets (2213) . Allah did not send any book before the Koran
- But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?
- He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; HE HAS GIVEN ME THE BOOK and made me a prophet;
I agree that the message was the same but the books given to them Cant be the book/quran that you are referring to . The events/issues/problems/solution etc discussed in the past books should logically be according to the environment/situation in which the past messengers lived/faced and not according to the environment in which Muhammad lived/faced?. .
Please explain the following verses
- And how do they make you a judge and THEY HAVE THE TAURAT WHEREIN IS ALLAH'S JUDGMENT? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
Wa kaifa yuhakkimu_naka wa'indahumut TAURA_Tu fiha_ hukmulla_hi summa yatawallauna mim ba'di za_lik(a), wa ma_ ula_'ika bil mu'minin(a).
3 3. He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the TORAH and the GOSPEL.
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O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
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When before it there was THE SCRIPTURE OF MOSES, an example and a mercy; and THIS IS A CONFIRMING SCRIPTURE IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.
14 4. WE SENT NOT A MESSENGER EXCEPT (TO TEACH) IN THE LANGUAGE OF HIS (OWN) PEOPLE, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
62 5. The likeness of those WHO ARE ENTRUSTED WITH THE LAW OF MOSES, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books. Wretched is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
peace.
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Peace tanveermd
Just want to clarify some things about your interpretation of 547.
Brother tanveermd, you said "Yes, according to 547 and the context of 546, the people of the injeel are the people to whom the injeel was sent down and they are asked to judge with WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN IN IT. They are not being asked to judge with the current New Testament which has things IN ADDITION TO WHAT GOD HAS SENT. Allah further says in the red part, that whoever does not judge with WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN (meaning the original true injeel, not the corrupted version) are the vile ones."
And I agree that it (it, meaning that which was with the Nasara) was corrupted. But then why does 547 say that the people of the Injeel should judge according to the revelation therein? If when the Qur'an was revealed, the version of the Injeel with the People of the Injeel was corrupted, why would the verse tell them to judge according to the Injeel? I'm still not understanding. I understand that the Qur'an authenticates the Injeel and in this sense they can judge by the Injeel by first determining what is authentic via the Qur'an but then the question becomes, why even bother with the Injeel? As you said, brother, the NT would be redundant anyway. Would God be redundant?
Peace.
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peace bro.
the "injeel" is not the Gospel . injeel is guidance and light and a sermon for those who guard(muttaqeen) . the ahlul injeel(people of the injeel) are those who guard . not the Christians . the Christians are idolators .546 ...(injeel is) a guidance and a sermon for those who guard.
547 And let the people of the Injeel(those who guard) judge with what God has sent down in it...i hope it helps. u can also checkout the lecture about taurah/injeel at www.iipc.tv .
peace.Peace darbaari. Thanks for the link brother.
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peace agentxxx.
Peace darbaari,
You wrote
as i have already quoted from the koran , that koran is the only book revealed to the prophets (2213) . Allah did not send any book before the Koran
- But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?
- He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; HE HAS GIVEN ME THE BOOK and made me a prophet;
I agree that the message was the same but the books given to them Cant be the book/quran that you are referring to . The events/issues/problems/solution etc discussed in the past books should logically be according to the environment/situation in which the past messengers lived/faced and not according to the environment in which Muhammad lived/faced?. .
Please explain the following verses
..."alkitab" means the same book throughout the Koran . all prophets recieved the same book i.e the 114 chaptered book we call Koran .
i will post the explanation of the verses u quoted as well as some other verses later in the day , inshallah .
peace.
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peace agentxxx .
Please explain the following verses
- And how do they make you a judge and THEY HAVE THE TAURAT WHEREIN IS ALLAH'S JUDGMENT? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
Wa kaifa yuhakkimu_naka wa'indahumut TAURA_Tu fiha_ hukmulla_hi summa yatawallauna mim ba'di za_lik(a), wa ma_ ula_'ika bil mu'minin(a).
it is not the "Torah" of the jews. taurah contains the hukm of Allah . taurah is within the Book .
2213 (All) people are a single nation; so Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge(hukm) between people in that in which they differed...
3 3. He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the TORAH and the GOSPEL.
what was before it ? the same book . remember 2213 ? all prophets were given the Book .
- O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
taurah and injeel are aspects of the book . not seperate books . there is no book before the Koran .(464)
- When before it there was THE SCRIPTURE OF MOSES, an example and a mercy; and THIS IS A CONFIRMING SCRIPTURE IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.
the Book of Musa is the same book .
7144 He said "O Moses, I have chosen you over mankind with My messages and My words; so take what I have given you and be of the thankful."
7145 And We wrote for him on the tablets from everything a lesson, and detailing all things. Take it with strength and order your people to take the best from it. I will show you the abode of the corrupt.8521-22 No, it is a glorious Quran. In a well-guarded tablet.
both the quran/reading and the writings given to Musa are in the tablet .
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, that they might be guided.
which book? this book(the Koran)
22 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for those who guard .
also
6154 Moreover, WE gave Moses the Book - complete for him who did good, and an explanation of all necessary things, and a guidance and a mercy - that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
the book of Musa is complete for thise who do good , right ? well , Muhammad was one of those who did good
3321 Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example has been set for you for he who seeks God and the last day and thinks constantly about God.
so the book of Musa was for Muhammad too . the book we call Koran .
14 4. WE SENT NOT A MESSENGER EXCEPT (TO TEACH) IN THE LANGUAGE OF HIS (OWN) PEOPLE, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
messenger is anyone delivering the message of God . thus a messenger should know the language of the people.
62 5. The likeness of those WHO ARE ENTRUSTED WITH THE LAW OF MOSES, yet apply it not, is as the likeness of the ass carrying books. Wretched is the likeness of folk who deny the revelations of Allah. And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
the taurah is within the book . probably the muhkam ayat of the Book .
the word used in this ayah is "taurah"(law) . NOT "taurah/law of musa" . nowhere in the Koran do the words "taurah" and "Musa" occur together .
i hope it is helpful .
peace.
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Peace darbaari,
You wrote
"alkitab" means the same book throughout the Koran . all prophets received the same book i.e the 114 chaptered book we call Koran .
Same message yes but same 114 chapters shock
Why would Allah tell Musa or Essa who lived 570 years before Muhammad] to preach in their time not to marry the wives of the messenger
- ?nor THAT YOU SHOULD MARRY HIS WIVES AFTER HIM EVER; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.
In what way could these verses serve them? roll
- And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
Or the verses regarding slander? shock
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Surely they who concocted the lie are a party from among you. Do not regard it an evil to you; nay, it is good for you. Every man of them shall have what he has earned of sin; and (as for) him who took upon himself the main part thereof, he shall have a grievous chastisement.
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Why did not the believing men and the believing women, when you heard it, think well of their own people, and say This is an evident falsehood?
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Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah.
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And were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy in this world and the hereafter, a grievous chastisement would certainly have touched you on account of the discourse which you entered into.
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When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.
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And why did you not, when you heard it, say It does not beseem us that we should talk of it; glory be to Thee! this is a great calumny?
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Allah admonishes you that you should not return to the like of it ever again if you are believers.
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And Allah makes clear to you the communications; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
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Surely (as for) those who love that scandal should circulate respecting those who believe, they shall have a grievous chastisement in this world and the hereafter; and Allah knows, while you do not know.
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And were it not for Allah's grace on you and His mercy, and that Allah is Compassionate, Merciful.
was Musa narrated the following verses 1200 years before Essa was born ?
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And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
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And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
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She said Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
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He said I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
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She said How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
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He said So (it will be). Thy Lord saith It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
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And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
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And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
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Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
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And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
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So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.
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Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.
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O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.
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Then she pointed to him. They said How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
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He spake Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
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And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
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And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
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Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
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Such was Jesus, son of Mary (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
alkitab means THE BOOK and not THE SAME BOOK as far as I understand it. In fact none of the prophets were given a finished/complete ALKITAB ?the book? in literal sense they received revelations from god and those revelations were then written and finally bundled together to form a book.
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The followers of the Book ask you TO BRING DOWN TO THEM A BOOK FROM HEAVEN; so indeed they demanded of Musa a greater thing than that, for they said Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa clear authority.
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And they say We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.
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Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out.
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Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us).
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Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending UNTIL YOU BRING DOWN TO US A BOOK WHICH WE MAY READ. Say Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger?
peace.
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peace darbaari,
- O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
darbaari wrote
taurah and injeel are aspects of the book . not seperate books . there is no book before the Koran .(464)
taurah, injeel, and quran are all aspect of the original book which is with Allah.
- Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth with Him is the Mother of the Book.
43 4. And surely it is in the original of the Book with Us, truly elevated, full of wisdom
- Recite that which has been revealed to you OF THE BOOK and keep up prayer;
the message which Allah says is the same message revealed to all the prophet is not the 114 chapters of quran literally but only the fundamental truths like the 10 commandments.
1-Exodus 202-6 = I am the Lord, your God, you shall not have any other God besides me.
2-Exodus 207 = You shall not take the name of the Lord, Your God, in vain.
3-Exodus 208-11 = Remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day.
4-Exodus 2012 = Honor your father and your mother.
5-Exodus 2013 = You shall not kill.
6-Exodus 2014 = You shall not commit adultery.
7-Exodus 2015 = You shall not steal.
8-Exodus 2016 = You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9-Exodus 2017 = You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. (Desire)
10-Exodus 2017 =You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.peace.
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peace agentxxx.
Peace darbaari,
You wrote
"alkitab" means the same book throughout the Koran . all prophets received the same book i.e the 114 chaptered book we call Koran .
Same message yes but same 114 chapters shock
it might sound strange, but yeah . i was also shocked at first . i showed u why it is the same book .
Why would Allah tell Musa or Essa who lived 570 years before Muhammad] to preach in their time not to marry the wives of the messenger
- ?nor THAT YOU SHOULD MARRY HIS WIVES AFTER HIM EVER; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.
In what way could these verses serve them? roll
- And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
every ayah has time of its fulfilment . besides that , musa himself was a prophet .
Or the verses regarding slander? shock
the slander can occur in Musa's time too .
was Musa narrated the following verses 1200 years before Essa was born ?
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And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
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And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
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She said Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
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He said I am only a ....
yes . i showed u how .
alkitab means THE BOOK and not THE SAME BOOK as far as I understand it.
"the book" means "a single specefic book" .
the concept of multiple books is wrong . no multiple books
3344 And We have given them NO BOOKS which they study, nor sent We unto them, before thee, any warner.
no book before the Koran
464 Say Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth, or have they a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge, if you are truthful.
peace.
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peace darbaari,
- O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
darbaari wrote
taurah and injeel are aspects of the book . not seperate books . there is no book before the Koran .(464)
taurah, injeel, and quran are all aspect of the original book which is with Allah.
the book which Allah has is also revealed to the prophets. (2213, 37)
the message which Allah says is the same message revealed to all the prophet is not the 114 chapters of quran literally but only the fundamental truths like the 10 commandments.
there is no support in Koran for this .
peace.
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Peace darbari. Are you serious? shock Brother agentxxx showed several reasons why the previous books couldnt be the literal 114 chapters of the quran. The grammar and contexts also becomes disjointed if you say jesus and moses etc received the same literal quran. I think some clarification is needed.
peace all. -
Peace tanveermd
Just want to clarify some things about your interpretation of 547.
Brother tanveermd, you said "Yes, according to 547 and the context of 546, the people of the injeel are the people to whom the injeel was sent down and they are asked to judge with WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN IN IT. They are not being asked to judge with the current New Testament which has things IN ADDITION TO WHAT GOD HAS SENT. Allah further says in the red part, that whoever does not judge with WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN (meaning the original true injeel, not the corrupted version) are the vile ones."
And I agree that it (it, meaning that which was with the Nasara) was corrupted. But then why does 547 say that the people of the Injeel should judge according to the revelation therein? If when the Qur'an was revealed, the version of the Injeel with the People of the Injeel was corrupted, why would the verse tell them to judge according to the Injeel? I'm still not understanding. I understand that the Qur'an authenticates the Injeel and in this sense they can judge by the Injeel by first determining what is authentic via the Qur'an but then the question becomes, why even bother with the Injeel? As you said, brother, the NT would be redundant anyway. Would God be redundant?
Peace.
Bumped because I'd appreciate it if brother tanveermd or anyone else can discuss with me my above post. Peace.