Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?
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peace tanveermd,
It would be nice to give a short descrbtion of one,s understanding underneath each vers that one writes from Quran.
From communication point of view it is then easier to follow your mind and try to listen to what your mind is trying to conveypeace,
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Peace bmbmm, all,
Thank you for your comments on "al-masjid al-haram".
Clearly the masjid-al-haram is not a physical structure. 1. The structure named as masjid-al-haram around the cube was not there. Its is so simple to understand that masjid-al-haram is not a structure It wasn't there! 2. Structures do not last forever.
Thanks for simplifying the matter. The message becomes much easier to understand when one thinks using reason and logic with knowledge
1024 It is such that We clarify the revelations to a people who think (yatafakkaroona).
3028 It is such that We clarify the revelations for a people who have sense (ya'aqiloona).
3029 No, those who were wrong followed their desires without knowledge. So who can guide one whom God misguides? And they will have no victors.- There should be signs of Abrahim in masjid-al-haram However there ain't any there, it masjid-al-haram is turned into a structure. Please let me and the prople know if there are any
396 The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure.The signs of Abraham are in the first sanctuary, not in "al-majid al-haram". Can you please post the verse(s) which tells us about signs of Abraham being in "al-masjid al-haram" ?
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Salaam Tanveer,
A clever person can hide his/her agenda but if that person hears and obeys and follows all the restrictions of the system/deen, then for all intents and purposes that person would be a submitter and not an idolater.
As far as we can tell, yes. But what is inside that person's heart is unknown to us. However bro Tanveer, you solve this problem by saying
Any person who claims to be a submitter while he/she is a disbeliever, idolater or rejecter becomes a hypocrite. I agree that many people who are not believers/submitters call themselves believers/submitters and deceive others. These are the hypocrites.
And the quran explains it quite well as "They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts, and God is aware of what they conceal." The important thing to note here is that "God aware" as if to emphasize that we, as humans, may not have the ability or certainty to be aware of the hypocrites.
Hearing and obeying and actually implementing restrictions of the system/deen by one's actions is much harder for an idolater to pretend to do than just saying a few words and performing bodily rites to pass off as a submitter. It will be much harder for an idolater to participate in an institution of authority for implementing hearing and obeying the forbidden.
Come to think of it, if I were a hard-core Bukhari worshipper, and I was expected to say that Bukhari's hadiths are not required to be a source of law in islam, I think I would be exteremely upset. D So yes, it is quite hard to pretend in this case. Even if I could, I still have to answer to God. So, I guess there is no escape anyway.
=adley=
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peace brother tanveer,
Firstly, thanks for sharing your work. I always appreciate articles like these.
A few points I noted as I went through the article...
literal translation
al masjid al haram ~ the implementation of acknowledging/recognising the restrictionThe above trans does leave it open in terms of what mode/form/vehicle is used to acheive the goal.
597 clearly points to a decision making vehicle. the current "Kabba" and "al masjid al haram" simply does not fit this criteria.
928 implies those who believe/trust can play a role in preventing the polytheists from approaching al masjid al haram, and this may result in a loss of income. this does imply a physical presence, due to real world (monetary) impact.
Note As I read your article further, the above point was clarified. They are no longer part of "the implementation of acknowledging the restriction", most likely related to breaking of treaty.
52 suggests a mix of people, and being amongst people you may dislike.
One should be oriented to the truth from our Lord at all times. As clear from the last part of 2144, the only requirement for knowing the true ?qiblah?/direction/goal is to be given the scripture from our Lord.
if one goes through the occurrences of the phrase ~"al haqq min rabb" in 'the reading' it usually (always?) refers to the scripturere/writ. taking this into account, a stronger link is formed by the use of 'al kitab' in 2144.
deen/obligation/system most definitely has a real-world presence, see the following point.
Thank you for your very nice observation on "HaaDiR". When I attempted to translate 2196, this was one point I did not fully get. I checked the occurrences of "haadir" and it can be used to mean "in the presence of" and in this context "attending". That directly links to the purpose of al HJJ / the conference, i.e. the implementation of acknowledging the restriction. If one takes it as an institute then this could further imply that there would be more than one al masjid al haram, with 'al bayt al haram' being the primary/head establisher/enforcer, i.e the one overseeing things as suggested in 52 & 597.
KFR can mean reject/conceal/disbelieve/unappreciative
Re 4827, a messenger's vision would be to deliver the message and have it upheld. Clearly, a safe environment has to be in place for this to happen, and I think this is what the sign refers to.
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas,
Thank you for your thought provoking comments.
literal translation
al masjid al haram ~ the implementation of acknowledging/recognising the restrictionWouldn't "institution/organization/establishment" be a better term here than "implementation" as they have a wider range of meaning ? For example one can say "government institution/organization" but not "government implementation".
"Institution" can mean An established or organized society or corporation; an establishment, especially of a public character, or affecting a community; a foundation; as, a literary institution; a charitable institution; but "implementation" does not have those meanings.
The above trans does leave it open in terms of what mode/form/vehicle is used to acheive the goal.
597 clearly points to a decision making vehicle. the current "Kabba" and "al masjid al haram" simply does not fit this criteria.
I agree that a communication vehicle is necessary for an institution of authority for implementing hearing and obeying the restriction and that vehicle would be the restricted house/sanctuary. It can be anywhere where people can gather safely to hear and obey the forbidden.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for the passers by, and those who remain, and the humbly hearing and obeying."
As per 2226, the house could be any place where the restriction "do not set up anyone with me" (6151) is heard and obeyed, and as such it could be a physical building or a non-physical virtual website where no partners are set up with The God and where people can come to safely hear and obey the system/obligation/deen.
The house which is used as the communication vehicle for "al-masjid al-haram" will be "al-bayt al-haram". According to verse 2791-92, it can even be a whole town where people can safely hear and obey the forbidden.
deen/obligation/system most definitely has a real-world presence, see the following point.
Makes sense. Similar usage of "fi al-din" is in 609 which is wrongly translated as "because of your system", rather than "in the system" in the PM translation. Also "fi din" in 1102.
The deen/obligation/system is made equivalent with "al-masjid al-haram" when we compare 2190-191 with 609 and 2217, and also by comparing 4827 with 1101-2.
If one takes it as an institute then this could further imply that there would be more than one al masjid al haram, with 'al bayt al haram' being the primary/head establisher/enforcer, i.e the one overseeing things as suggested in 52 & 597.
As I was thinking about your post, It occurred to me that the "first bayt" and "al-bayt al-haram" as used in the qur'aan may not be referring to the same "bayt" !!
The "kaaba"/base would be "al-bayt al-haram" as per 597. Potentially there could be multiple "al-bayt al-haram" for the multiple "al-masjid al-haram" suggested by 2196, and each "al-bayt al-haram" would be the "kaaba"/base for that particular province or geographical area. The hajj/debate however would always be at the FIRST BAYT at Bakkah.
Alternatively, the word "first" in 396-97 implies that there could be other "bayt". There could, therefore, be multiple "bayt" in multiple geographical areas, and each "bayt" could be "al-bayt al-haram" and the "kaaba"/base for that area. There would, therefore, be multiple hajj/debate in multiple "al-bayt al-haram" all over the world.
What do you think ? I have to research this concept by studying the occurrence of "bayt" and "al-bayt al-haram" in all verses of the qur'aan.
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Peace brother Wakas,
literal translation
al masjid al haram ~ the implementation of acknowledging/recognising the restrictionAnother point that I missed mentioning in my last post is that the terms "acknowledging/recognizing" may not represent the wider meaning of "sujud" including the actual obedience or submission.
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Peace brother Wakas,
if one goes through the occurrences of the phrase ~"al haqq min rabb" in 'the reading' it usually (always?) refers to the scripturere/writ. taking this into account, a stronger link is formed by the use of 'al kitab' in 2144.
In addition to "al-masjid al-haram" being the main subject in 2144, the same phrase ~"al haqq min rabb..." is repeated and stressed in 2149 where only "al-masjid al-7aram" is mentioned and there is no mention of the book. This makes it almost certain to be referring to "al-masjid al-haram".
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Al-masjid al-haram is off limits to the idolaters per 928 but al-bayt al-haram is for the entire mankind (2226-27), so they cannot be the same thing.
tanveermd wrote
928 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach al-masjid al-haram after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and those who kneel and prostrate."
2227 And call out to mankind with the hajj/debate, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.ur conclusion that al-masjid al-haram and al-bayt-al-haram cannot be the same thing, as far as those 2 verses are concerned, seems to be a bit shaky! 928 puts the masjidalharam off-limits for those who associate with god! 2226 clearly sets the rules for the sanctuary do not set up anyone with god and so on! 2227 tells adam to call from humankind those who meet the criteria of not associating with god!
furthermore, 2225 also says the same thing about masjidalharam which u have claimed as being exclusive to baytulharam being for 'entire' annas!
925 Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from Allah's way and from the Sacred Mosque which We have made equally for all men, (for) the dweller therein and (for) the visitor, and whoever shall incline therein to wrong unjustly, We will make him taste of a painful chastisement.
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ur conclusion that al-masjid al-haram and al-bayt-al-haram cannot be the same thing, as far as those 2 verses are concerned, seems to be a bit shaky! 928 puts the masjidalharam off-limits for those who associate with god! 2226 clearly sets the rules for the sanctuary do not set up anyone with god and so on! 2227 tells adam to call from humankind those who meet the criteria of not associating with god!
2226 says that the location of the house is "do not setup any partner" (2nd person singular). So this is addressed to Abraham (who is establishing the house) NOT to the people who will visit. On the other hand, in 2227 the call is made to the entire humankind (plural).
The passage makes it clear that the only requirement for the location of the house is that it is established by someone who doesn't setup partners. Clearly, this is not a particular location but any location where this criterion is met.
furthermore, 2225 also says the same thing about masjidalharam which u have claimed as being exclusive to baytulharam being for 'entire' annas!
925 Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from Allah's way and from the Sacred Mosque which We have made equally for all men, (for) the dweller therein and (for) the visitor, and whoever shall incline therein to wrong unjustly, We will make him taste of a painful chastisement.
There is never any command telling certain people not to come near the restriction house. On the other hand, in 928, you will see the following related to "al-masjid al-haram"
- O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.
One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" as per 2225.
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaams All,Aymaan,
believe it or not masjid isn't a physical place.
2225
As to those who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country - and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty.A Better Trans
2225
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah, And from avoiding of the forbidden Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.The way of Allah ?all the good things is in the quran and the forbidden things are listed throughout the quran as well.
God Bless.
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- O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.
One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" as per 2225.
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".
I agree.
You might also consider the following verses
It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to maintain AAmuroo the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit In Fire shall they dwell. The mosques of Allah shall be maintained yaAAmuru by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance AAimarata of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
Maybe al masjid al haram was a place where people met to make business, to pray and do rituals, and where political decisions (like hunting restrictions) were taken between all tribes. Theses decisions were consecrated by being done in the names of Allah and the idols people associated to it.
Then God told the muslim that they should administer al masjid al haram, in order that the decisions should be taken in the name of Allah only (and by the light of its message).
That's why al masjid al haram became a symbol of true monotheism put into action.Peace
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ayman wrote
2226 says that the location of the house is "do not setup any partner" (2nd person singular). So this is addressed to Abraham (who is establishing the house) NOT to the people who will visit. On the other hand, in 2227 the call is made to the entire humankind (plural).even though the call is made to the entire humankind the target audience is quite evident in the next verse itself...those who are called to the house are done so to remember the name of god...so quite evidently those who asscoiate with god are excluded!
what do u mean by 'location' of the house is "do not setup any partner"?
ayman wrote
There is never any command telling certain people not to come near the restriction house. On the other hand, in 928, you will see the following related to "al-masjid al-haram"that is because u are viewing masjidalharam and baytalharam as distinct! still...let's look at the 2226 to get a clearer picture...
And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.
circumambulate this house....why?...because it is a sign from god...see 396-97...so that makes believing in god a condition!
again....so that they stand bow and prostrate....to whom?...god!
and yeah...clear verses as to who are to be called to baytalharam
22 30 Such (is the Pilgrimage) whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception) but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-
2231 Being upright for Allah, not associating aught with Him and whoever associates (others) with Allah, it is as though he had fallen from on high, then the birds snatch him away or the wind carries him off to a far-distant place.
the verses keep speaking of god...quite evidently those who believe in god are to be called to the house of god...so v have the same restriction which we have for masjidalharam being enforced for baytalharam...no reason to believe they are distinct!
ayman wrote
One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" as per 2225.not necessarily...as faith was 'lost' they simply changed their practise even as they frequented the house....it does not mean they were previously allowed even as they associated (with god)...but now that a messenger has come and faith was 'renewed' and the believers have taken custody of the kabah...those who associate with god are not to be allowed therein!
- But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
so in either case we get the same rules for masjidalharam and baytalharam and lack of reason to believe they are distinct!
####### peace
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simple wrote
believe it or not masjid isn't a physical place.a masjid would be a place for sujood....physical...but does not have to be a building constructed according to a certain construction!
simple wrote
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah, And from avoiding of the forbidden Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.where did u get the 'avoiding' from in 'avoiding of the forbidden'?
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They hinder people from Allah?s way.
99
The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way evil indeed are the deeds they have done.They avoid not the breaking of agreements.
98
How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.They are doing things that where forbidden
913
Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!Najisa = impure/that perceived by intelligence./the associaters of others with God.
Br. Ayman said
928. O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.My trans
928
O you who believe verily the associators cannot be trusted let them not approach/undertake the forbidden killings/slaughter/expulsions after the yearly contract ????
929
Fight against those who not believe in Allah nor in the Day Last nor forbid that which has forbidden Allah ???Its too simple?
Salaams. -
Salaams Br,
i was merely making it easier to comprehend.
but here you are i have made it even more easier to understand.
2225
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah And from ,avoiding of the forbidden/ the forbidden submissions/the killing of innocents/the raping of women/the expulsion of people Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.Peace to you.
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simple wrote
i was merely making it easier to comprehend.but here you are i have made it even more easier to understand.
thanks -)
simple wrote
2225
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah And from ,avoiding of the forbidden/ the forbidden submissions/the killing of innocents/the raping of women/the expulsion of people Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.i get that..but what i am asking is...last time around u translated masjidalharam as "affairs of restriction" and masjidalaqsa as "affairs of retaliation'! using this translation we have
171
Glorified who set forth His slave (to upland) by loss of power and prosperity (or by night) from avoiding of the forbidden/ the forbidden submissions/the killing of innocents/the raping/the expulsion of people Which we have classed as evil to avoiding of retaliation, whereof we blessed his escape/strength/around to show him of Our Signs He He the All-Hearer the All-Seer.salaams. peace to you -)
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Salaams Br,
I forgot we had a discussion already once!
You cannot avoid penalty after, doing what is forbidden, killing ? in the case of Moses, but you can be forgiven.
You know the context of languages matters Br.
like you can't avoid bandaging your hand after you have cut it,can you.
Thanks.
