Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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The God is not an idol obviously.
Why not? Why obviously? ?
then you make a leap'o'faith to refer to some words being the words of the God. wich are these, and what language does The God speak in?
I believe without a doubt that quran is God's words, not limited to, the words/language therein. If you don't, that's fine too....so they follow the idol instead of god.
So, is following the God alone, 'idolatory'?
Who/what's your idol?
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Why not? Why obviously? ?
We need to establish something here first. When we use the term, the God, what are we speaking about? I just want to make sure its the same mental construct.
I believe without a doubt that quran is God's words, not limited to, the words/language therein. If you don't, that's fine too. )
yeah i know, im not having any problems with people who belive as you do. Only people who belive as you do, and use their own pet idea to show me how wrong that I am. )
I am wondering tho, how you confirm this as fact. -
Peace Magi,
We need to establish something here first. When we use the term, the God, what are we speaking about?
The Creator.Only people who belive as you do, and use their own pet idea to show me how wrong that I am.
Remember it works both ways. wink And there's a never-ending supply of people who'll try to tell you that you're wrong... so it's best not to stress on it. >- -
peace zenje and all. My idol is the illogical part of my being,which i try not to follow. My god is my conscience or logical self,which i try to follow...
Anyway good deeds are the proof my friend,not words and definitions...
Many of you seem to think its a good deed to make arbitrary divisions between people...And to elevate the quran to the role of god... Dont your minds have any role in the process of understanding life? Where is your humanity and conscience? -
The Creator.
peace Zenje (btw. isnt it enough that we have greeted eachother with peace once when i came here? i havent changed my mind, im still meeting all of you with peace )
as in the creator, and sustainer of all things? then we have the same concept behind the words. To me this cannot be an idol as i experience it work directly in my everyday life on a personal level. WHAT it is, i have no idea, and think would be foolish to claim that i knew.
This personal experience does it for me. And as enquirer say, the language tryely universal is the language of the heart. I heard a hedith that actually made sense to me that i will share hehe;
"If you are in doubt whether what youre doing is right or wrong. it is wrong"
i actually agree fully to this, if you dont know right from wrong, boy do you have some issues to deal with )
Remember it works both ways. wink And there's a never-ending supply of people who'll try to tell you that you're wrong... so it's best not to stress on it. )>-
absolutely true, this is altso not a debate if i belive in the Quran or not. Obviously i belive in it, and the concept i have for God is the same concept that you have. What we are debating is how excactly The God, makes its will known to us. I state through numerous sources including the Quran, and that would either make all of them divine and the direct word, or none of them.
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no its not accurate, but its all that we have that isnt blind faith!
Yet you claim it's logical even if it is NOT accurate? How does that compute? Isn't blind faith? Please explain to me how this history is not blind faith? Are we talking about archeological evidence or textual? If someone is following a book that they think can be verified by what they know now, how is that blind faith as opposed to someone following inaccurate history? Don't both think that it can be verified now to some extent if not all? If there is a contradiction why not discuss it instead of labelling it a done deal at the onset of a discussion.
fair play. So what IS salat and angels. I have studied the older systems, and through them i understand now, that this is no different. In fact, it is nearly the same. To me this says that these storys stay because they are good to learn certain values from, that i belive to have in my life.
So you want to talk about salat and angels or is it rhetorical?
thats good, but can you prove it? Have you got a copy of injeel?
Since I believe the quran is the word of God it can have no contradictions with another scripture claiming to come from God as well. Anything will be tested against this and if someone wants to prove the quran wrong please go ahead, this is what this thread is for.
and there are numerous, but they are to be found in the "evidence" the book suggests. We are to belive in all the books send down, as you say. How can i confirm that they changed? I cant even confirm this with the Quran itself. God chose not to preserve the first copy for some odd reason, that would have eleminated all doubt.
Start discussing them one by one. First copy? Man you are into history aren't you? Heh.
the sunnis state that you arent, so does the jews and xtians. why are they not right? because of your blind faith in a book!
Right. Like your inaccurate history is so much more 'logical'. Blind faith, sheesh.
I know what it translates into, but what does that mean for me? I am to uphold the contact, how does that work?
The God is your guide to the quran. Don't expect people to tell you what to do, because that is not going to be your understanding. There are plenty of articles that I find well reasoned about the subject, you can see which fits best using your own research and reading.
and this is why the Quran fails!
And this is the fault of the book. Wunderbar!
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magi wrote
I state through numerous sources including the Quran, and that would either make all of them divine and the direct word, or none of them.which are the numerous sources apart from quran which god has revealed, since the quran?
also i would like to see u validate ur belief in god by proving its existence!
enquirer wrote
My idol is the illogical part of my being,which i try not to follow. My god is my conscience or logical self,which i try to follow...what do u mean by 'idol' and 'god' there? are u saying ur logical self created this universe?
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Peace all. This is the crux of the matter. If we dont know right and wrong from within,then boy can we get into difficulties.(37.) Did god say or make the quran superior to your own natural state of knowing right and wrong? If the quran is a reminder,then we already know what is right and wrong,the quran is just reminding people who have forgotten. Thats why;
a)the quran is not essential to everyone.(there are other ways to remember.)
b)your own true instinctive morality is superior to the quran,or any book or person,because it is directly relevant and first hand to your requirements,experiences,verifications and true nature.
Happy remembering. D -
Salaams Magi,
yes i have seen these but the mistrans isn't here it was in the other the "entire mankind" bit.
when you come across that then post it and we will see who is the entire mankind.God willing.
God Bless.
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Anyway good deeds are the proof my friend,not words and definitions...
And so far, what have I seen of you here?... thank you. winkMany of you...
You guys, you people... you're wrong, I'm right.. yes? rollPeace be with you enquirer, take it easy. )
What we are debating is how excactly The God, makes its will known to us. I state through numerous sources including the Quran...
Upto this point... we're not debating, we're in agreement! DPeace
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Yet you claim it's logical even if it is NOT accurate?
damn i should have deleted that line and gone with the edit alone. you are offtracking the issue at hand now. If you grandad burn his hand on a hot stove, you dad does and you mom does, you have reasonable confirmation that stoves are hot. THis history is not pr. default, wrong.
However, Here it is again (source;http//philosophy.hku.hk/think/logic/basic.php)
source explanation i chose this source because it is easy to find around. The information however, is 1st grade knowledge for pholosophers, scientist and mathmaticians alike.L03.7 Logical Equivalence
If we have two statements that entail each other then they are logically equivalent. For example, "everyone is happy" is equivalent to "nobody is not happy", and "the glass is half full" is equivalent to "the glass is half empty".
If two statements are logically equivalent, then they must always have the same truth value.Are we talking about archeological evidence or textual?
we are still talking about basic human logic as defined by expereince through history.
So you want to talk about salat and angels or is it rhetorical?
it is rethorical, because all you can do is give me YOUR concept. I can ask the 19'er, the submitters, the sunnis and get totally different concepts, all claiming it is from the same book, and that it is what God tells them to.
Since I believe the quran is the word of God it can have no contradictions with another scripture claiming to come from God as well. Anything will be tested against this and if someone wants to prove the quran wrong please go ahead, this is what this thread is for.
i have actually succeeded in several places. It is obviously NOT clear. So when it tells us to belive in something on faith, in contradicts itself when it makes clear that we should not accept things we cannot confirm. Or perhaps, this doesnt go for the book itself ?Personally i think that it does, and it pose the greatest challenge to us. To let go of our sucker, and live according to the message, wich is beutyful.
Start discussing them one by one. First copy? Man you are into history aren't you? Heh.
im sorry, please correct me. where is this first copy to be found?
The God is your guide to the quran. Don't expect people to tell you what to do, because that is not going to be your understanding. There are plenty of articles that I find well reasoned about the subject, you can see which fits best using your own research and reading.
so whatever our understanding of the book is, it is the right one, at any given time, even if it contradicts other peoples understanding?
And this is the fault of the book. Wunderbar!
aber ja, das ist wunderbar. das buch ist f?r alle menschen. But either for all to understand, or all to make their own understanding of, and if that is the case. what im doing is fully in line with the book itself.
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peace zenje. Some people try to be open-minded and promote reality zenje...i think thats a good deed,rather than defending their arbitrary,sectarian divisions of mankind ,and harmful interpretations of a 1400 year old book. wink If i said the earth is a square,cant you tell me im wrong? D
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peace thegod. Show me one verified example of creation from nothing in the whole history of existence?... We are all eternal my friend...Travelling from one manifestation to the next.
God=reality,idol=illusion or misinterpreted reality. -
enquirer wrote
peace zenje. Some people try to be open-minded and promote reality zenje...i think thats a good deed,rather than defending their arbitrary,sectarian divisions of mankind ,and harmful interpretations of a 1400 year old book. If i said the earth is a square,cant you tell me im wrong?what does that have to do with fallacy of quran? -S
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Enquirer said
?peace simple. Some people use the verses of 3; 19 and 385 to show that no religion is acceptable except Islam. Then others use 2;62 and 569 to show that christians,jews and anyone of faith and good deeds has an acceptable religion. Which is correct? Any person could interpret these verses to whatever bias he or she has.?
The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.
385
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- ANY WHO BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY, AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
569.
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- ANY WHO BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY, AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.The commonality between all these AYAH?S is submission to what it says in sura 3 (believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness )and you will find it throughout the quran whoever does follow this irrespective of whether they call themselves meatballs and whether they be pink in color have nothing whatsoever to worry about ? I think.
submission (islam) to the details in surra 3.Look at the context.
?Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness?So whether you agree or not there isn't any CONTRA
God Bless All.
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peace thegod. I was adressing a comment zenje made,or should i open a seperate thread to answer him? Can you not see that topics are sometimes quite diverse and need a broad range of explanations. What does your last post have to do with the fallacy of the quran? LoL. D
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If i said the earth is a square,cant you tell me im wrong?
You can say it all you want, doesnt mean I'm going to believe you. And I could try and convince you (even though that's not what I'm about), but if you're deadset on it, the earth will always be square to you, and that's cool too.Here's an excerpt from the "1400 year old book" that sums up what I said quite eloquently...
Chapter 109
- Say ?O rejecters,?
- ?I do not serve what you serve,?
- ?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
- ?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
- ?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
- ?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?
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enquirer wrote
peace thegod. Show me one verified example of creation from nothing in the whole history of existence?... We are all eternal my friend...Travelling from one manifestation to the next.that's what i say unto those who deny the existence of god to create something out of nothing and then put forth the claim of the absence of a supernatural entity!
so u are perhaps alluding to pantheism? that all of us are manifestations of god? each of us is god? wowww...that would have been cool!
enquirer wrote
God=reality,idol=illusion or misinterpreted reality.who created the universe? an enitity called god? or is it a self generated reality?
peace -)
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peace Zenje. Ah,so i proved my point,you do make arbitrary divisions and harmful interpretations from your own ego,(on the basis of an internet dialogue)...Not from god. D or is it?
If only half the energy was spent on serving god and being tolerant and open-minded,the world might be a much better place. I notice when you guys run out of ideas you throw out your quranic misinterpretations. D -
peace thegod. Yes it is cool,us being gods. D
Everthing is a self generated,though interdependent reality.