Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?
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ayman wrote
2226 says that the location of the house is "do not setup any partner" (2nd person singular). So this is addressed to Abraham (who is establishing the house) NOT to the people who will visit. On the other hand, in 2227 the call is made to the entire humankind (plural).even though the call is made to the entire humankind the target audience is quite evident in the next verse itself...those who are called to the house are done so to remember the name of god...so quite evidently those who asscoiate with god are excluded!
what do u mean by 'location' of the house is "do not setup any partner"?
ayman wrote
There is never any command telling certain people not to come near the restriction house. On the other hand, in 928, you will see the following related to "al-masjid al-haram"that is because u are viewing masjidalharam and baytalharam as distinct! still...let's look at the 2226 to get a clearer picture...
And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.
circumambulate this house....why?...because it is a sign from god...see 396-97...so that makes believing in god a condition!
again....so that they stand bow and prostrate....to whom?...god!
and yeah...clear verses as to who are to be called to baytalharam
22 30 Such (is the Pilgrimage) whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception) but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-
2231 Being upright for Allah, not associating aught with Him and whoever associates (others) with Allah, it is as though he had fallen from on high, then the birds snatch him away or the wind carries him off to a far-distant place.
the verses keep speaking of god...quite evidently those who believe in god are to be called to the house of god...so v have the same restriction which we have for masjidalharam being enforced for baytalharam...no reason to believe they are distinct!
ayman wrote
One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" as per 2225.not necessarily...as faith was 'lost' they simply changed their practise even as they frequented the house....it does not mean they were previously allowed even as they associated (with god)...but now that a messenger has come and faith was 'renewed' and the believers have taken custody of the kabah...those who associate with god are not to be allowed therein!
- But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
so in either case we get the same rules for masjidalharam and baytalharam and lack of reason to believe they are distinct!
####### peace
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simple wrote
believe it or not masjid isn't a physical place.a masjid would be a place for sujood....physical...but does not have to be a building constructed according to a certain construction!
simple wrote
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah, And from avoiding of the forbidden Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.where did u get the 'avoiding' from in 'avoiding of the forbidden'?
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They hinder people from Allah?s way.
99
The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way evil indeed are the deeds they have done.They avoid not the breaking of agreements.
98
How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.They are doing things that where forbidden
913
Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!Najisa = impure/that perceived by intelligence./the associaters of others with God.
Br. Ayman said
928. O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.My trans
928
O you who believe verily the associators cannot be trusted let them not approach/undertake the forbidden killings/slaughter/expulsions after the yearly contract ????
929
Fight against those who not believe in Allah nor in the Day Last nor forbid that which has forbidden Allah ???Its too simple?
Salaams. -
Salaams Br,
i was merely making it easier to comprehend.
but here you are i have made it even more easier to understand.
2225
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah And from ,avoiding of the forbidden/ the forbidden submissions/the killing of innocents/the raping of women/the expulsion of people Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.Peace to you.
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simple wrote
i was merely making it easier to comprehend.but here you are i have made it even more easier to understand.
thanks -)
simple wrote
2225
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah And from ,avoiding of the forbidden/ the forbidden submissions/the killing of innocents/the raping of women/the expulsion of people Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.i get that..but what i am asking is...last time around u translated masjidalharam as "affairs of restriction" and masjidalaqsa as "affairs of retaliation'! using this translation we have
171
Glorified who set forth His slave (to upland) by loss of power and prosperity (or by night) from avoiding of the forbidden/ the forbidden submissions/the killing of innocents/the raping/the expulsion of people Which we have classed as evil to avoiding of retaliation, whereof we blessed his escape/strength/around to show him of Our Signs He He the All-Hearer the All-Seer.salaams. peace to you -)
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Salaams Br,
I forgot we had a discussion already once!
You cannot avoid penalty after, doing what is forbidden, killing ? in the case of Moses, but you can be forgiven.
You know the context of languages matters Br.
like you can't avoid bandaging your hand after you have cut it,can you.
Thanks.
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Peace brother,
2225
As to those who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country - and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty.A Better Trans
2225
As for those who have rejected (Allah), and would KEEP BACK (men) From the way of Allah, And from avoiding of the forbidden Which we have classed as evil - those set in their ways and those who are occasional and whoever inclines respecting it with opposition or to do wrong will we cause to taste from a torment painful.The way of Allah ?all the good things is in the quran and the forbidden things are listed throughout the quran as well.
Yes. The insitute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" is no more a physical building than "the way of The God" is a physical highway to Mecca.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace JM,
I agree.
You might also consider the following verses
It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to maintain AAmuroo the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit In Fire shall they dwell. The mosques of Allah shall be maintained yaAAmuru by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance AAimarata of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
Maybe al masjid al haram was a place where people met to make business, to pray and do rituals, and where political decisions (like hunting restrictions) were taken between all tribes. Theses decisions were consecrated by being done in the names of Allah and the idols people associated to it.
Then God told the muslim that they should administer al masjid al haram, in order that the decisions should be taken in the name of Allah only (and by the light of its message).
That's why al masjid al haram became a symbol of true monotheism put into action.I totally agree that what defines "al-masjid al-7aram" is that the decisions made by its administrators should be taken by the light of The God's message. This correct definition that you provided has nothing to do with a physical place. Any building no matter how impressive cannot result in decisions being made in the light of The God's message.
Hence, even if you build a nice building with a minaret and a golden dome and put a big sign on the front door saying "Masjid", it wouldn't be a "masjid" if the people don't make decisions in light of The God's message. So how do people make decisions in light of The God's message? Of course, they hear and obey what The God restricted on them. They implement this in their family and community and ultimately in their country. So from your excellent observation, one can see that "masjid" is not primarily a physical building but it is primarily an institution that makes decisions in light of The God's message. The physical building is irrelevant.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
even though the call is made to the entire humankind the target audience is quite evident in the next verse itself...those who are called to the house are done so to remember the name of god...so quite evidently those who asscoiate with god are excluded!
How can you remind people of the name of The God? Is it by mindlessly repeating "labayk allahu ama labayk" thousands of times while spinning around an idol (and sometimes stampeding over people)? I think that you need to look at the action of "thikr" in the great reading and see how it is supposed to be accomplished.
Notice that "witness benefits" is mentioned before "remembering The God".
what do u mean by 'location' of the house is "do not setup any partner"?
This is what the passage clearly says in 2226. The word "makan" in Arabic means "location". The location is given by the passage as "do not setup any partner"
that is because u are viewing masjidalharam and baytalharam as distinct! still...let's look at the 2226 to get a clearer picture...
And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.
circumambulate this house....why?...because it is a sign from god...see 396-97...so that makes believing in god a condition!There is no "circumbulate" anywhere in this passage or the entire great reading. This of course, unless you want to make the suggestion that those who go in heaven have drinks or servants spinning seven times around them (5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615) and your family and you spin seven times around each other (245. So clearly, "circumbulate" has nothing to do with what The God's message is actually saying.
again....so that they stand bow and prostrate....to whom?...god!
Yes it is to The God but there is nothing in there that says that everyone who goes there will bow (be humble) and prostrate (obey).
and yeah...clear verses as to who are to be called to baytalharam
22 30 Such (is the Pilgrimage) whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception) but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-2231 Being upright for Allah, not associating aught with Him and whoever associates (others) with Allah, it is as though he had fallen from on high, then the birds snatch him away or the wind carries him off to a far-distant place.
the verses keep speaking of god...quite evidently those who believe in god are to be called to the house of god...so v have the same restriction which we have for masjidalharam being enforced for baytalharam...no reason to believe they are distinct!
Again, these passages are not just for those who go to the restriction house. One should obey 2230-31 all the time. Or is it OK to not "shun the abomination of idols" when one is not in the restriction house?
not necessarily...as faith was 'lost' they simply changed their practise even as they frequented the house....it does not mean they were previously allowed even as they associated (with god)...but now that a messenger has come and faith was 'renewed' and the believers have taken custody of the kabah...those who associate with god are not to be allowed therein!
- But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
so in either case we get the same rules for masjidalharam and baytalharam and lack of reason to believe they are distinct!
The God doesn't use words haphazardly. He made a distinction and didn't use the same words for them. I think that "al-bayt al-7aram" (the restriction house) is a component of "al-masjid al-7aram" (the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction). They are related but they are not synonymous. My understanding is that "al-bayt al-7aram" is the communication medium for "al-masjid al-7aram". Thus, "al-bayt al-7aram" can be any place where people can assemble in safety (2125) to hear The God's message. The "hajj" is an annual market (where people primarily witness benefits) that takes place, as we saw above in 2226, anwhere partners are not setup with The God. So having people from different creeds coming from all over the world is an excellent opportunity to remind them of The God by showing them the real "islam" (lower case action not the proper name) through ACTIONS of a role-model community of people who don't setup partners with The God and make decisions according to the light of His message, not through ARGUMENTS ("jidal".
Peace,
Ayman
- But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
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ayman wrote
How can you remind people of the name of The God? Is it by mindlessly repeating "labayk allahu ama labayk" thousands of times while spinning around an idol (and sometimes stampeding over people)? I think that you need to look at the action of "thikr" in the great reading and see how it is supposed to be accomplished.Notice that "witness benefits" is mentioned before "remembering The God".
why do u try to limit everything to ur understanding? -/ does remembering the name of god mean mindlessly repeating it? are u trying to say whoever takes the name of god verbally is doing it mindlessly?
that said i said remembering the name of god and did not say 'how'...that was just ur limited understanding at work...the point still remains the same...those who are called to the house are called so as to remember the name of god...being mindful about it! -)
ayman wrote
This is what the passage clearly says in 2226. The word "makan" in Arabic means "location". The location is given by the passage
as "do not setup any partner"the word denotes more than just location...it denotes something like foundation...established....rootedness...firm placing....i suggest u read the quran to understand this for urself! -)
ayman wrote
There is no "circumbulate" anywhere in this passage or the entire great reading. This of course, unless you want to make the suggestion that those who go in heaven have drinks or servants spinning seven times around them (5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615) and your family and you spin seven times around each other (245. So clearly, "circumbulate" has nothing to do with what The God's message is actually saying.i guess 'going about' would be better...fair enough...choose going about the house of god...doesnt make a difference...it still remains the house of god...one god....not nafs of an individual! -)
ayman wrote
Yes it is to The God but there is nothing in there that says that everyone who goes there will bow (be humble) and prostrate (obey).huh?? clearly states for the standing the bowing and the prostrating! and god does not need others to put in brackets to show what it intends to mean....while u were at it why did u leave out standing?
ayman wrote
Again, these passages are not just for those who go to the restriction house. One should obey 2230-31 all the time. Or is it OK to not "shun the abomination of idols" when one is not in the restriction house?yeah...would apply anywhere...and also to the house....have u forgotten that? who obey 2230-31 are them for whom the hajj has been ordained..so whoso desires to associate with god are not called to do the hajj...its a package...u cannot come to party at the house of god....u come there when u have belief in god....lets not miss the forest for the trees!
ayman wrote
The God doesn't use words haphazardly. He made a distinction and didn't use the same words for them.calling the choice of words of god as haphazard is not a solution....using different titles does not make 2 things different...read the quran to know what i mean! -)
ayman wrote
I think that "al-bayt al-7aram" (the restriction house) is a component of "al-masjid al-7aram" (the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction). They are related but they are not synonymous. My understanding is that "al-bayt al-7aram" is the communication medium for "al-masjid al-7aram". Thus, "al-bayt al-7aram" can be any place where people can assemble in safety (2125) to hear The God's message.####### it is not what v think but that which is confirmed by quran which counts...2125 is speaking of the house the alqawaida of which was raised by ibrahim and ismail.....so while u are entitled to ur understanding as much as anyone else..as long as it remains deprived of support from quran it will remain just that...a personal understanding without significance! -)
ayman wrote
The "hajj" is an annual market (where people primarily witness benefits) that takes place, as we saw above in 2226, anwhere partners are not setup with The God. So having people from different creeds coming from all over the world is an excellent opportunity to remind them of The God by showing them the real "islam" (lower case action not the proper name) through ACTIONS of a role-model community of people who don't setup partners with The God and make decisions according to the light of His message, not through ARGUMENTS ("jidal".####### god does not set up markets to sell or showcase its religion...it sends its messengers to make truth distinct from falsehood...nowhere does it say that the hajj is to be a fair or a market where 'ideal muslims' will be on display for the rest of the humanity....rather it is the bayt itself to which believers are called...again u need to back up ur claims from the quran rather
than ur understanding as all are entitled to their own understandings but to reach an 'understanding' it has to be based on quran rather than hypothesis!######## and yes i agree....our understanding should be guided according to god and its message rather than us trying to guide the understanding of god and its message! cool! -)
######### peace -)
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simple wrote
I forgot we had a discussion already once!You cannot avoid penalty after, doing what is forbidden, killing in the case of Moses, but you can be forgiven.
You know the context of languages matters Br.
like you can't avoid bandaging your hand after you have cut it,can you.
yes...but that the context in 171 is moses is something which u are saying on the basis of translation so v need a consistent translation...or maybe i think so! -)
simple wrote
Thanksnetime -)
i think i have to bid adieu again!
salaams
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why do u try to limit everything to ur understanding? -/ does remembering the name of god mean mindlessly repeating it? are u trying to say whoever takes the name of god verbally is doing it mindlessly?
that said i said remembering the name of god and did not say 'how'...that was just ur limited understanding at work...the point still remains the same...those who are called to the house are called so as to remember the name of god...being mindful about it! -)
So how do you remember The God according to the great reading?
the word denotes more than just location...it denotes something like foundation...established....rootedness...firm placing....i suggest u read the quran to understand this for urself! -)
I agree. It is not the physical location that is important but any place where this "foundation" is established.
i guess 'going about' would be better...fair enough...choose going about the house of god...doesnt make a difference...it still remains the house of god...one god....not nafs of an individual! -)
I agree. I never said it was the "nafs of an individual". So do you also agree that the present spinning seven times around the stone cube in Mecca is a completely manmade ritual that has no support in the great reading?
huh?? clearly states for the standing the bowing and the prostrating! and god does not need others to put in brackets to show what it intends to mean....while u were at it why did u leave out standing?
So are the people who are physically "prostrating" but disobeying The God really prostrating?
So are the people who are physically "kneeling" (there is no bowing in the great reading since you cannot fall into bowing as in 3824) but are arrogantly disobeying The God really kneeling?It is "persisting" not "standing". What does standing have to do with anything?
yeah...would apply anywhere...and also to the house....have u forgotten that? who obey 2230-31 are them for whom the hajj has been ordained..so whoso desires to associate with god are not called to do the hajj...its a package...u cannot come to party at the house of god....
Yes it applies anywhere and anytime (not just during "hajj" as you suppose). Of course "anywhere" includes the house.
u come there when u have belief in god....lets not miss the forest for the trees!
There is nothing that says that "hajj" is just for the "mu'minin" (those who have faith/trust).
calling the choice of words of god as haphazard is not a solution....using different titles does not make 2 things different...read the quran to know what i mean! -)
Why are two different "titles" used?
####### it is not what v think but that which is confirmed by quran which counts...2125 is speaking of the house the alqawaida of which was raised by ibrahim and ismail.....so while u are entitled to ur understanding as much as anyone else..as long as it remains deprived of support from quran it will remain just that...a personal understanding without significance! -)
How come "the foundation" suddenly became physical foundation when you said above that it is not a physical location? The same exact word occurs in 1626. Is that a physical foundation there?
The God tells us what the foundation of our "buildings" should be in 9109-110. Are those physical buildings and foundations?
####### god does not set up markets to sell or showcase its religion...it sends its messengers to make truth distinct from falsehood...nowhere does it say that the hajj is to be a fair or a market where 'ideal muslims' will be on display for the rest of the humanity....rather it is the bayt itself to which believers are called...again u need to back up ur claims from the quran rather
than ur understanding as all are entitled to their own understandings but to reach an 'understanding' it has to be based on quran rather than hypothesis!
######## and yes i agree....our understanding should be guided according to god and its message rather than us trying to guide the understanding of god and its message! cool! -)So when Moses worked for 8 "hijaj" was it to work and produce or was it for some religious pilgrimage? See 2827.
If the place where this market takes place is somewhere where people don't setup partners (2226) then this is a model community. People coming from all over the world will see this and be reminded of The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Alaikum, Br. Tanweer
I agree with your interpretation of "masjid" carrying an abstract concept in the heart and mind of a believer. I also appreciate the depth of your perception throughout the rest of your article .. though basically it struck me as quite a 'storm in a tea cup.' Personally I think that the translations you've been following are way off the track,and have thus evidently created a good bit of conflict. I myself, kept getting boggled as I went through them, and had to compare each one with Pickthall's. That's when it made perfect sense to me. In the verses you've quoted, I wonder why the translator keeps using the term "Masjid-al-Haram?" This term has constantly been substituted by either "The Inviolable Place of Worship" or "Allah's monuments" or the "(holy) House," most often "The Inviolable Place of Worship." Besides, it could surely be misleading to paraphrase the Quraanic verses with the help of certain Arabic words that one might have learnt in the process. In many (if not all) languages, a single word is often used in several contexts. Also, a single phrase could carry a variety of ideas, depending on the context of the conversation or lecture. In such situations, unless one isn't thoroughly well versed in the language concerned, there could be immense misconceptions as 'little knowledge is a dangerous thing.' Therefore, to straighten a bewildering maze with the minimal of hassles, just pick a reliable translation and stick to it alone. It could resolve a problem that might not even exist a lot quicker than expected. I would suggest to be focused on Pickthall.
I'd like to express my opinion on the following that were discussed in depth by you
Allah hath fulfilled the vision for His messenger in very truth. Ye shall indeed enter the Inviolable Place of Worship, if Allah will, secure, (having your hair) shaven and cut, not fearing. But He knoweth that which ye know not, and hath given you a near victory beforehand. (4827) Al-Fath
Verse 4827, as I see it, simply refers to pilgrimage, that the Muslims will be able to make pilgrimage without any hindrances in future which would be a startling change from the Medina era when creating obstacles for the Prophet (pbuh) and his followers from reaching the Kaaba was the trump card for the Meccan leaders. The verse is an assurance to comfort the Prophet (pbuh) .. not complicated at all.
Lo! those who are with thy Lord are not too proud to do Him service, but they praise Him and adore Him. (7206) Al-Araf
The above verse 7206 clearly highlights the humility within the heart of a believer and its great importance. Though we strive to be independent of our fellow human beings and often make it our goal, dependency on God alone is a source of pride and solace, a very special quality that's acquired by realizing that arrogance or a challenging attitude is no good while interacting with God. It's a general statement to all humanity and I don't see it as being addressed to the Prophet (pbuh) alone.
Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far Distant Place of Worship the neighborhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer. (171) Al-Israa
The verse (171) very obviously talks about the blessed premises which is apparently a widespread area of spiritual significance, even if the building didn't exist physically.
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (92 At-Towba
Verse 928 suggests, as a general statement from God, that's it's not befitting for the disbelievers to enter the Kaaba or be its caretakers on account of their disbelief, until they're spiritually cleansed (that is, become believers in monotheism). "So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship ..." does not literally mean stopping them with physical force, rather it's only a verbal admonition emphasising the reverence of the Kaaba. Obviously, it goes without saying that it wasn't possible at all to stop the idolaters physically from entering the Kaaba both before and after the conquest of Makkah. Prior to the conquest, the idolaters were in charge of the Kaaba. After the conquest, if any disbeliever was at all determined to enter the Kaaba through deceitful means, that certainly wasn't the responsibility of the believers. Rather, that was a matter between the violator and God.
The mention in the Glorious Qur'aan of the believers being expelled from the Inviolable Place of Worship again most likely does not carry a literal meaning but is a connotation to the hostility of the people of Makkah toward the small band of the Prophet's followers who were indeed prevented from taking charge of the Kaaba.
As we all know, there are many verses in the Glorious Qur'aan that are revealed in the context of specific circumstances. Verse 2191 which you quoted is one such verse. Frankly, I avoid quoting such verses alone by themselves, instead it's really essential to quote the preceding and/or following verse/verses too for a much better understanding of facts.
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors. (2190) Al-Baqrah
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2191) Al-Baqrah
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (2192) Al-Baqrah
The central thought here is to highlight the concept of defensive warfare only, not an offensive one .. to the extent that fighting isn't permitted in places of worship as a norm, except for the purpose of self-defence. And again as always, verse 2191 uses the term "Inviolable Place of Worship."
The Kaaba itself did very much exist physically during the pre-Islamic era, though it wasn't called the 'Kaaba' neither was it called the Haram Sharif or anything similar for the simple reason that it was the citadel of spiritualism for the pagans. It didn't even look much the same as it does today because of the destruction by successive invasions and subsequent renovations that took place periodically for a few centuries after the passing away of the beloved Prophet (pbuh).
Personally I prefer being focused on the actual sense of the contents rather than names.
And only Allah has the final authority to assert the meaning of the Glorious Qur'aan.
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ayman wrote
So how do you remember The God according to the great reading?2200 So if you accomplished/carried out your rituals or methods worship , so mention/remember God as you mention/remember your fathers or stronger remembrance, so from the people who say "Our Lord, give us in the present world." And for him (there is) no share of blessing/fortune in the end (other life).
- Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say) Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire.
how do u 'adhkurullah' from the quran? -)
ayman wrote
I agree. It is not the physical location that is important but any place where this "foundation" is established.I agree. I never said it was the "nafs of an individual". So do you also agree that the present spinning seven times around the stone cube in Mecca is a completely manmade ritual that has no support in the great reading?
the quran says to go about the bayt of god...as for 'spinning seven times around the stone cube in mecca' or spinning 777 times is not discussed in the quran at all...however what it does say is to go about the bayt...and anything extrapolative (7 spins)...contradictory or hidden (meanings) is something which needs to be supported with mention in the quran! -)
ayman wrote
So are the people who are physically "prostrating" but disobeying The God really prostrating?god does mention piety...being upright...so those who are making a mockery of god's commands or being unmindful are doing so only to their own detriment! are u saying it is ungodly to prostrate physically?-)
ayman wrote
So are the people who are physically "kneeling" (there is no bowing in the great reading since you cannot fall into bowing as in 3824)
but disobeying The God really kneeling?yes i too take it as kneeling...but physical...especially from 3824 and 3191....he did fell to his knees and was repentant...and there would be nothing wrong for those who visit the house of god to fall on their knees remembering god....praising it...asking forgivance and guidance...and so on...would it? -)
ayman wrote
It is "persisting" not "standing". What does standing have to do with anything?can u shed some light on "persistent"?
that said standing would have to do more or less the same things that kneeling or prostration would have to do....praise god...seek forgiveness...implore for mercy...be thankful..... -)
ayman wrote
Yes it applies anywhere and anytime (not just during "hajj" as you suppose). Of course "anywhere" includes the house.i do not suppose that...that i suppose is ur supposition! -)
would u be a believer in one god if u associate with god? likewise when god talks about the hajj...about dhikr of god and of being upright unto god and not associating with it would god be addressing believers in god or general?
2 197 The pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that)
there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So
make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.does that mean apart from during the annual fair 1 is allowed that which has been disallowed therein?
ayman wrote
Why are two different "titles" used?did god reveal unto its messenger the quran or the furqan? did allah reveal unto its slave the quran or did arrahman allamalquran? or did 1 anzala and the other allama?
what do u understand by masjidalharam...masharalharam...and baytalharam...i mean 'haram' in what sense?
ayman wrote
How come "the foundation" suddenly became physical foundation when you said above that it is not a physical location?'makan' can be taken in a phsyical as well as an abstract sense...like 'bayt' can be...or can it?
that said when i said 'makan' is being rootedness or firmly placed...i meant as attributes of 'place' rather than just anywhere...but i do think simply 'place' seems to be quite appropriate in the light of the quran! this 'place' can be 'abstract' as in 16101 or more 'physical' as in 2231!
is bayt an abstract term or a spiritual station in 1223?
ayman wrote
The same exact word occurs in 1626. Is that a physical foundation there?yes...it is a complete destruction...a physical destruction of their place such that their alqawaida were razed..and along with the physical destruction also is the destruction of falsehood which they built...uprooted at its very foundation...is that going against the punishments in quran? or do u have something to prove otherwise? -)
ayman wrote
The God tells us what the foundation of our "buildings" should be in 9109-110. Are those physical buildings and foundations?explain the 'masjid' in 9107 as that verse precedes these! -)
ayman wrote
So when Moses worked for 8 "hijaj" was it to work and produce or was it for some religious pilgrimage? See 2827.hajj to the bayt takes a religious significance....in itself it would not...so 2827 may have nothing to do with this! -)
ayman wrote
If the place where this market takes place is somewhere where people don't setup partners (2226) then this is a model community.
People coming from all over the world will see this and be reminded of The God.####### god is not saying in the quran that hajj is where humankind can see a model community...does it?...can u point out the verse which does?...and would it not be that this market of model community should be working 24/7 rather than an annual affair...so that humanity can see it at all times? or is that muslims have to play a model community during this annual fair? but the hajj to bayt is for those who believe in god and who stand...kneel and
prostrate unto it! -)######## peace -)
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Just a thought!
The god said
2 197 the pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that)
there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So
make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.?There is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation-------------------. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So
make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.?Doesn?t this apply to normal business dealings ? everyday? As one goes about trading.
Salaams.
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?There is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation-------------------. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.?
Doesn?t this apply to normal business dealings ? everyday? As one goes about trading.
Yes it would.
Peace,
Ayman
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2200 So if you accomplished/carried out your rituals or methods worship , so mention/remember God as you mention/remember your fathers or stronger remembrance, so from the people who say "Our Lord, give us in the present world." And for him (there is) no share of blessing/fortune in the end (other life).
- Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say) Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire.
how do u 'adhkurullah' from the quran? -)
Thank you for the enlightening passages.
As you quoted, we are to remember The God as we remember our fathers or stronger remembrance. Do you remember your father by repeating "labayka father amma labayka" a thousand times while spinning around a stone? Of course not. You remember the many valuable lessons that he taught you. You remember him by respecting and obeying him (except if he told you to setup partners with The God). You remember him by thanking him for raising you as a child and sheltering you and giving you good things. You remember him by being grateful and a good son. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat "labayka father amma labayka" if you are ungrateful and a bad son who didn't learn anything good from his parents' experience. It is just mindless repitition.
We remember The God by studying his creation of the heavens and the earth, and realizing that our Lord did not create all this in vain. When we remember The God by studying his signs and are amazed, we naturally say "subhan Allah" (The God is exalted).
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
the quran says to go about the bayt of god...as for 'spinning seven times around the stone cube in mecca' or spinning 777 times is not discussed in the quran at all...however what it does say is to go about the bayt...and anything extrapolative (7 spins)...contradictory or hidden (meanings) is something which needs to be supported with mention in the quran! -)
I agree. The 7 spins are not supported by the great reading. They are only supported by ancient pagan birthing celebrations. Some of those traditions continue to this day. For example, as part of the ancient Subu3 birth celebrations, people go seven times around the house. Pagans spinned seven times around the Jinn block (the stone cube) of Allat in celebration of the re-birth of the fertility goddess on the winter solstice. The Black Stone is set in a female vulva shaped enclosure in the Southeast corner of Allat's Jinn block (which is covered in a black dress) precisely facing the winter sunrise. The pilgrims wear wraps like those that newborns are wrapped in. They run between two hills as symbolism for searching for water for a newborn. They kiss the crown of the head of the newborn baby idol as it is coming out of the vulve so that their sins are forgiven (kissing the head for forgiveness is an ancient Arab tradition) and by doing so they themselves return sinless as if they are newborn.
god does mention piety...being upright...so those who are making a mockery of god's commands or being unmindful are doing so only to their own detriment! are u saying it is ungodly to prostrate physically?-)
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that the primary meaning is "obedience". One can prostrate physically however many times he wants but that is not real "sujud" if he disobeys The God. It is obedience to The God that makes it real "sujud". Now you can prostrate physically and there is nothing wrong with that but obeying The God comes first. Hence, if you understand it physically, you should obey The God and do it to the chin and NOT the forehead (17107).
yes i too take it as kneeling...but physical...especially from 3824 and 3191....he did fell to his knees and was repentant...and there would be nothing wrong for those who visit the house of god to fall on their knees remembering god....praising it...asking forgivance and guidance...and so on...would it? -)
No, there is nothing wrong with that. But if they kneel while they are arrogant then it is not real kneeling. It is just a show off.
7746-48. Eat and enjoy a little, you are criminals. Woe to the rejecters. And if it was said to them "irka'u", "la yarka'un".
3734-35. We do like this to the criminals. If it was said to them there is no god except The God, "yastakbirun" (they become arrogant).
According to 7746-48 The criminals do not kneel. So do you think that there are no criminals amongst the multitude of sectarians, Trinitarians, Hindus, etc. who are physically kneeling everyday or is 7746-48 exaggerating? Of course not, real kneeling is primarily not being arrogant (i.e., being humble), physical kneeling is a secondary meaning.
can u shed some light on "persistent"?
that said standing would have to do more or less the same things that kneeling or prostration would have to do....praise god...seek forgiveness...implore for mercy...be thankful..... -)
If you look at how you remember The God above (by studying His signs), then you will see how everything fits together. Like any learning activity, you must persist when studying. If you give up when you encounter something difficult then you will not succeed. Similarly, you must be humble because if you think that you already have all the answers based on preconceptions then you will not succeed. Finally, once you learn something from The God then you must obey The God based on what you learned. All this is natural. This is the real "maqam"/status/position of Abraham. He persisted and was humble until he reached the truth. Once he did that, he was able to correctly obey The God. The "maqam Ibrahim" is not some idol in the form of a footprint as they have now in Mecca.
would u be a believer in one god if u associate with god?
Yes. See 12106.
likewise when god talks about the hajj...about dhikr of god and of being upright unto god and not associating with it would god be addressing believers in god or general?
In general.
2 197 The pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that) there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.
does that mean apart from during the annual fair 1 is allowed that which has been disallowed therein?
Argument ("jidal" can happen outside the "hajj" forum. The word "rafath" means sexual contact and it is of course allowed with our wives. On the other hand, one should not argue in that forum and of course sex shouldn't be a part of that annual market or any market for that matter.
did god reveal unto its messenger the quran or the furqan? did allah reveal unto its slave the quran or did arrahman allamalquran? or did 1 anzala and the other allama?
The God teaches the great reading and He reveals (bayan) it through the messenger and those who were given the book (3187). Currently, those who were given this book are those who know the language of this book (Arabic).
The word "furqan" like "quran" is an intensified common noun of the form "fu3lan". So like the word "quran", which literally means "intense reading", the word "furqan" means "intense differentiation". It is simply an attribute of this book (like "huda"/guidance).
what do u understand by masjidalharam...masharalharam...and baytalharam...i mean 'haram' in what sense?
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.
The word "sha3r" has a meaning of "awareness". So "al-mash3ar al-haram" means the institute of awareness of the restriction. This is how those who visit the house are made aware of what The God restricted on us.
The term "al-bayt al-haram" means the house of the restriction. It is the place where people can assemble in safety to witness benefits and remember The God. As clear from the great reading, the house's location is defined as follows
- First and foremost it is anywhere the people who administer it do not setup any partners with The God (2226).
- In this location, the people who administer it invite ALL PEOPLE to the "hajj" (2227), not just people from a certain religion.
- They purify it from all forms of idolatry (2226).
- The house is not just a place of assembly but it is a SAFE place of assembly (2125).
The house in the location presently called Mecca doesn't satisfy any of the above requirements.
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The people who administer it take their clergy as partners with The God that decree in their "din" (obligation) what The God has not authorized. They take as a partner with The God idols in the form of a stone cube and a so-called Black Stone that they revere and adore. They take as partner with The God the dead prophet who they believe will put them in heaven by interceding on their behalf.
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The people who administer it do not invite ALL PEOPLE to it but only so-called Muslims.
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The house is not purified and it has many forms of idolatry and associated pagan rituals. The idols include the stone cube and the Black Stone (and even a footprint idol). The pagan rituals include spinning seven times around the cube and kissing and fondling the Black Stone. Other pagan rituals that are also related as we saw to pagan newborn idol birthing celebrations include running between two hills to look for water for a newborn. All this while being dressed in newborn-style wraps.
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The house is certainly not a safe place. Any monotheist (even Ibrahim himself) who tries to purify the house by destroying those revered stones or even simply telling people not to revere stones would certainly be torn to pieces by the angry mob of pagans who love to revere such stones. You would probably suffer the same exact fate if you stand in the middle of a Hindu temple and tell the "pious" mob not to revere stone idols. Is this the attitude of monotheists or pagans? If you and I go there and proclaim the obvious fact that the Saudi monarchy is corrupt we would probably be arrested, tortured or worse. Does this sound like a safe place to you?
For most intents and purposes, according to the above four criteria from the great reading, this forum is a more fitting house than the one in Mecca.
'makan' can be taken in a phsyical as well as an abstract sense...like 'bayt' can be...or can it?
that said when i said 'makan' is being rootedness or firmly placed...i meant as attributes of 'place' rather than just anywhere...but i do think simply 'place' seems to be quite appropriate in the light of the quran! this 'place' can be 'abstract' as in 16101 or more 'physical' as in 2231!
is bayt an abstract term or a spiritual station in 1223?I never said that "bayt" is not physical or "makan" is not a physical place. It is just that "makan al-bayt" is not a particular physical place. It is ANY place where the above four criteria are met.
yes...it is a complete destruction...a physical destruction of their place such that their alqawaida were razed..and along with the physical destruction also is the destruction of falsehood which they built...uprooted at its very foundation...is that going against the punishments in quran? or do u have something to prove otherwise? -)
Do you build a building using "makr" (scheming) or brick and mortar? You can see their empty physical building (2752) so the physical building can be intact. So those "qwa3id" are not physical but are "taqwa" (forethought) as per 9109-110.
explain the 'masjid' in 9107 as that verse precedes these! -)
Thank you for your intelligent observation. 9107 is indeed related to those passages and help clarify them. In fact, the word "masjid" in 9107 cannot be understood as a physical building. This is for the simple reason that the walls and ceiling of a physical building cannot harm (dirar) anyone and certainly cannot separate between those who have faith or anticipate those who fight against The God and His messenger. So this confirms the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of obedience, i.e. an institution of authority (like government).
There is nothing amazing about what I am saying and the meaning of "masjid" as an institution of authority and not a physical building is regularly used to this day. For example, we hear about "al-masjid Al-Azhar" issuing a "fatwa". Surely, no one thinks that the physical building (the floors, walls and ceilings) is capable of issuing an opinion of any kind but it is the institution that does.
ayman wrote
So when Moses worked for 8 "hijaj" was it to work and produce or was it for some religious pilgrimage? See 2827.hajj to the bayt takes a religious significance....in itself it would not...so 2827 may have nothing to do with this! -)
I think 2827 has a lot to do with this. The term "hajj" is never used in the great reading to refer to other than the one to the "bayt". So why exclude 2827? In fact, Madyan is much more likely to be the location of the first house than the location that was renamed to Mecca long after the great reading was sent.
####### god is not saying in the quran that hajj is where humankind can see a model community...does it?...can u point out the verse which does?
Any community who doesn't setup partners with The God (2226) is automatically a model community, don't you think?
The religion of Abraham is that he submitted to his Lord and he advised his progeny with the same (2131-132). He settled them at the house (1437) and thus became a community of those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him.
...and would it not be that this market of model community should be working 24/7 rather than an annual affair...so that humanity can see it at all times? or is that muslims have to play a model community during this annual fair? but the hajj to bayt is for those who believe in god and who stand...kneel and prostrate unto it! -)
Yes, the community is 24/7 and those who submit to The God and not setup partners with Him do that all the time. On the other hand, the "hajj" is not. You can only have an annual market, well? annually! The location of the "hajj" is that community but the timing is annual. For more on the timing, please see http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all,
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
Perhaps the pure inimitable Arabic language guru and a hafiz-e-quraan of all times, witnessed here on this forum with many so-called "slam dunks", can defeat the above statement. I'd like to see how he manipulates, sucks out words and verses from the Quran to play around alongwith the neocons and roughriders that support him.
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Peace Danish,
I don't see anywhere in the passages that you quoted any indication that the circus going on in Mecca of spinning around a stone is rememberance of The God.
Perhaps the pure inimitable Arabic language guru and a hafiz-e-quraan of all times, witnessed here on this forum with many so-called "slam dunks", can defeat the above statement. I'd like to see how he manipulates, sucks out words and verses from the Quran to play around alongwith the neocons and roughriders that support him.There is no defeat or winning in a statement. It is only those who are "barely removed" (َ from the fire who will win (3185). Many of the people who participate in this circus of idolatry are from our families and forefathers and even some of us. Perhaps a few years ago we would have happily done it too. Remember that many of us were like them. There is no savior other than The God. We should cry and not laugh. We shouldn't get distracted by the arrogance of worldly "winning". We should only focus on obeying and serving The God, The Truth.
Peace,
Ayman