Free Minds now Anti Qur'an forum.
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Peace layth. Seeing the tremendous harm and disunity caused by immoral interpretations of the quran,can you really say overall that its a shortcut to salvation that is less harmful than abrahams 'self-pondering' and discovery of truths,or the discovery of truths by other 'civilisations' and people using their own god-given intellect?
I'm only quoting your post as an example for my reply.
People who can't seperate an ideology from its followers have no place trying to discuss anything worthy of the intellect. People, please realise that an ideology does not necessarily reflect upon those who follow it; one cannot judge an ideology based on a sample of the followers of said ideology; finding faults in the followers of an ideology does not constitute a fault of said idealogy. Anyone who constitutes an argument on an ideology based on its followers are unwittingly committing strawman's fallacies.
Please people, get your heads out of your asses and start thinking about what you type.
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Peace,
Enquirer, i understand your point of view, but there are as many different ways of following your concience....The thing is, people should start to understand, that we are not fighting over what God is thinking, but we as humans are thinking. We are all on different levels. A year ago, i wouldn't have accepted any idea i have now, i would have rejected the me who is now. I would label him a fool. We are still in a long progress of letting go of the mythology and corrupted theology that still hunts us when people read Quran, this will takes years and years. Just like your concience took years to develop. I myself have grown so much the last years, and every stage was neccesary, every little ignorant step i defended was neccesary to understand it and move on. Don't get confused on how people can differ so much on one book, because that is not the case. People don't understand that they are not defending the truth, they are defending their background, the things they picked up in life. There are people on this site, who has already letten go of so much past-ignorance, in time more will be understood, and the differences will disappear for the major parts. I defended the Kaaba for a long time, but now i have researched it, and seeing the symbolic language God uses, i have let it go. But this i could do, because i remembered myself on all the things i already dropped behind me. There will be more consensus in the future, no doubt about that. But still new people will come to this path, and they will have to learn to let go of a lot of conceptions, which will take years, and during that time, they will differ all the time. This is normal......
Peace
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Peace,
Peace layth. Seeing the tremendous harm and disunity caused by immoral interpretations of the quran,can you really say overall,that its a shortcut to salvation that is less harmful than abrahams \'self-pondering\'/discovery of truths,or the discovery of truths by other \'civilisations\' /people using their own god-given intellect?
Yes, I can say without a doubt that following the \'best\' understanding of the Scripture is leaps and bounds more beneficial than having to experiment with social laws causing the death and destruction of thousands or even millions in the process.
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Salaamun alaikum,
KGB, while I hear your sentiment, imho, you need to understand that free discussions are necessary in order to stimulate answers to higher questions. In order to extract the message of al-quraan, we need to be in conviction of its origin and to do this, we must observe the signs in the horizons and in ourselves. Al-quraan caters to our existential needs from the start to the end.
However, this doesn't mean that all discussions can be fruitful. There are people here who lack integrity and honesty when it comes to discussions. They have not done their research and don't mind belittling the Quran even without this. Such people, if we are true servants of Ar-Rahmaan , should be addressed with 'salaam' (25/63). I cannot understand how the management stands for their presence but hey-ho, this is the law of the land, as it were and we must either bear with it or leave.
To me, Layth's point of view could be summed up by saying, you can escape Al-quraan, but you can never escape al-kitaab. We will be judged by al-kitaab in the end. In order to learn of al-kitaab, you need clarification and this is the whole point of al-quraan, the tafseelul kitaab (10/37)
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Peace neo and all. Ideology means nothing if it is not applied practically,does it? I could say i believe in all the principles and ideology of the quran (like islamic extremists do.) and then kill and oppress innocents for these principles...is the ideology just a bunch of theoretical nice words. Or do these ideologies have to be verified and applied?
Isnt ideology without action classed as 'hypocrisy' in the quran?...(dont worry im not accusing you of hypocrisy,just asking a question.) What is the proof of an ideologies correctness...? Theoretical posturing and arguing?...,Or real life practical verifications,along with real life applicability producing peaceful results? -
peace All,
when one examines something, especially something like 'al quran' whose aim is to guide the complex being known as mankind, it is inevitible you will get extreme swings, and during this process of examination you will get amazing discoveries/insights as well as illogical ones. Loads of differing opinions (like every other complex subject discussed in the whole world?) etc. This is natural, and if one ponders carefully, one can regard it as essential.
Also, longstanding members see this happening all the time a person takes the views of a few people here to represent the forum and they make sweeping generalisations about the forum or all members of the forum or the movement. This is child's play.
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Peace neo and all. Ideology means nothing if it is not applied practically,does it? I could say i believe in all the principles and ideology of the quran (like islamic extremists do.) and then kill and oppress innocents for these principles...is the ideology just a bunch of theoretical nice words. Or do these ideologies have to be verified and applied?
Isnt ideology without action classed as 'hypocrisy' in the quran?...(dont worry im not accusing you of hypocrisy,just asking a question.) What is the proof of an ideologies correctness...? Theoretical posturing and arguing?...,Or real life practical verifications,along with real life applicability producing peaceful results?Straw.
Man.
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Peace arnoldyasin and all. Arnoldyasin; Some very good observations and points you make... I dont mind too much a persons theoretical beliefs,as we can all be at different stages of understanding,individuality and learning...i myself would have defended salat,hajj,kaaba,perfection of quran,quran only,salavation of quran only people only etc... only a couple of years ago...But i have come to realise that reality does not justify some of my previous views and dogmas,and we have to verify the opinions we have...However i believe when a persons views cause real harm or oppression to themselves or others,it needs to be countered,deflected or opposed...
My business is not always questioning how you make sense of the world through you own individual god-given logic,but why people are oppressing and harming themselves and others...
peace all.. -
Inquiries people with time should make to Enquirer
Enquirer ....i myself would have defended salat,hajj,kaaba,perfection of quran,quran only,salavation of quran only people only etc... only a couple of years ago.
Please explain your view of hajj and kaaba.
Please show where al-quraan says 'only quran-only people will be saved' as per your statement above.
...But i have come to realise that reality does not justify some of my previous views and dogmas,and we have to verify the opinions we have
Please explain how you formulate 'reality' ? How is 'reality' determined and by what classification system is it expounded upon?
...However i believe when a persons views cause real harm or oppression to themselves or others,it needs to be countered,deflected or opposed...
Does al-quraan agree or disagree with this view ?
If it enjoins the things mentioned above, kindly bring forward the evidence.
Please note these questions are for the use of people who wish to stimulate their minds and to respond to those who reject al-quraan as from Allah. Please do not expect Enquirer to answer these questions. He doesn't care to address any points if they do not extoll his views or virtues.
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Peace mquran. Quran does not really agree or disagree with any view...Its you and the people who interpret the quran,that disagree or agree with universal laws...When did the quran last 'talk' directly about its views to anyone?...I will give you an indication..It last talked when 'muhammed' or the person who wrote it,was present.
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Peace mquran. Quran does not really agree or disagree with any view...Its you and the people who interpret the quran,that disagree or agree with universal laws...When did the quran last 'talk' directly about its views to anyone?...I will give you an indication..It last talked when 'muhammed' or the person who wrote it,was present.
This is what we call in English 'clutching at straws'. Fortunately, Allah was prepared even for these pathetic attempts. Al-quraan clearly calls itself 'qaulun rasulun kareem' (69/40) and so it is the word for word speech of the messenger. Therefore, it's completely possible to verify if one is acting in accordance with it or not.
Are you telling me if I said 'its ok to spread mischief on the earth', I cannot find a 'yes' or 'no' in al-quraan ? Wow, we're really scraping, arent we?
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Some here seem to truly think/believe their interpretations to be 100% right and act around as if they are the spokepersons of Allah.. o
And as for some others, who do not believe Quran to be the word of God, so be it.........why should there be a compulsion?
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Peace pm,
Read zenje's post. I think thats what some people are irked by.
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Some here seem to truly think/believe their interpretations to be 100% right and act around as if they are the spokepersons of Allah..
Others come in at the 11th hour, read quicker that the Road runner and totally miss the point.
So far, those defending the divinity and infallibility of al-quraan ask for EVIDENCE. Evidence, as I know the word is alien to you, peaceful muslim is like when people ask 'where does the quran tell you to love everyone', they provide a verse supporting that thesis.
And as for some others, who do not believe Quran to be the word of God, so be it.........why should there be a compulsion?
If THIS is your interpretation of the actions of those defending al-quraan, you need to realise that some people take discussions in that spirit as discussions. They expect honest exchanges whereby people can get stimulated to higher understandings. If you think there's a compulsion, this shows you've not been reading carefully, as usual.
Do you expect us to just go 'ah, wonderful, you're right the quran is fallible even though you cant prove a single point'?
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Salaam Alleikum MQuran
Its nice to hear from you after long absense. I am not against free thinking or have any problems with individual opinion regarding Qur'an. I don't have any problem if they accept it or completely reject it. The replies posted to Prashant Kumar question was not according to what Qur'an is commanding us to do. They should have encouraged him to read the Qur'an and help him understanding the message instead of preaching their philospy.
What I said is correct according to my understanding of Qur'an? I don't have any desire to win a popularity contest. I will keep saying what is right according to my understanding of the message.
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Peace mr mquran. I will re-iterate my point that when you have some new or decent points to make,i will respond to you...Most of your questions i have answered on other threads. Its quite ironic you cant even be 'civil' to people who actually do believe in the quran like peaceful-muslim,elke,ichephren etc... I will clarify once again,i dont mind what you or anyone believes..i only mind when your or other peoples beliefs cause harm to yourself or others...
And as for my views on certain topics...Well i have posted my opinions many times on different threads...So just re-read them and then ask me if ive changed my mind,or to clarify myself...Is that ok? My opinions are just that...my opinions...I dont ask you to believe them...Verify things for yourself...
Peace all; ps;just posting verses to justify your own viewpoints doesnt always refute someone or make your view correct. Apple-pie used more details and verses than most on this forum,yet most disagreed with him,and i would say he was mistaken in his views....Some sunnis use loads of verses to justify the 'obligation' to follow the sunnah and 'physical' salat etc,are they correct then?... If your quranic evidence is valid and a refutation,then apple-pie and abu-hurairah(no1historical sunni narrator of hadiths.) are also correct in their views. -
Peace KGB,
I don't have any desire to win a popularity contest. I will keep saying what is right according to my understanding of the message.
From what I've read of your posts, they have been honest, not hiding behind false sentiment and/or slogans or trying to insinuate a hidden agenda. I wish more people would do that. -
Peace mr mquran. I will re-iterate my point that when you have some new or decent points to make,i will respond to you...
That's laughable. You only respond by slogans, never by substance because you're devoid of any.
Most of your questions i have answered on other threads. Its quite ironic you cant even be 'civil' to people who actually do believe in the quran like peaceful-muslim,elke,ichephren etc...
Firstly, lack of 'civilty' is a matter of opinion. I admit being brusque but not rude and I really don't mind people thinking otherwise.
Also, once again this shows your inadequate study of the book. I have never met peacefulmuslim, elke, ichepren. I don't know who they are or what agenda they carry. 'belief in the quran' is something one carries forward in the world, so I reserve judgement as to whom these people are. To me, it's all about al-quraan. If you speak against al-quraan and are a person with honesty and integrity, you will provide evidence. Otherwise, what are you but an empty vessel ?
I will clarify once again,i dont mind what you or anyone believes..i only mind when your or other peoples beliefs cause harm to yourself or others...
Define 'harmful'. Please show me where al-quraan enjoins 'harmful' beliefs (as per your comment in another post).
And as for my views on certain topics...Well i have posted my opinions many times on different threads...So just re-read them and then ask me if ive changed my mind,or to clarify myself...Is that ok? My opinions are just that...my opinions...I dont ask you to believe them...Verify things for yourself...
You have made allegations about al-quraan. I ask you for proof. If you have none, then say so. If you don't feel you need to provide any, then say so. You will be more respected for honesty than if you worm about not providing evidence.
Peace all; ps;just posting verses to justify your own viewpoints doesnt always refute someone or make your view correct. Apple-pie used more details and verses than most on this forum,yet most disagreed with him,and i would say he was mistaken in his views....Some sunnis use loads of verses to justify the 'obligation' to follow the sunnah and 'physical' salat etc,are they correct then?... If your quranic evidence is valid and a refutation,then apple-pie and abu-hurairah(no1historical sunni narrator of hadiths.) are also correct in their views.
Listen Lote-tree, oops I mean Enquirer. If you promise me as a decent human being that you will answer my questions in the contradictions thread , the 3 questions regarding your allegations about al-quraan, I will show you where the mistakes of Apple-Pie are. I just don't bother with Apple Pie at present because it's a waste of time, Apple Pie isn't someone who thinks, only pastes. Lastly, if you think Abu Hurairah is even worth mentioning, then I think you need another 25 years of 'on and off' study.
