Is Pope John Paul II a hell creature ?
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Peace,
Hello, mr."I-believe-in-the-old-mythological-hell-from-the-ancient-greeks-as-this-was-brought-into-islam". If you take the burning literaly, why don't you take Gehenna literaly? Gehenna is an old valley near Jerusalem, do you think all doomed people will end up in there? No, of course, that you do take symbolicaly, only the burning do you take literaly, funny picking and choosing....
The Quran says itself it are allegories
- The semblance of Paradise promised the pious and devout (is that of a garden) with streams of water that will not go rank, and rivers of milk whose taste will not undergo a change, and rivers of wine delectable to drinkers, and streams of purified honey, and fruits of every kind in them, and forgiveness of their Lord. Are these like those who will live for ever in the Fire and be given boiling water to drink which will cut their intestines to shreds?
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Peace,
Hello, mr."I-believe-in-the-old-mythological-hell-from-the-ancient-greeks-as-this-was-brought-into-islam". If you take the burning literaly, why don't you take Gehenna literaly? Gehenna is an old valley near Jerusalem, do you think all doomed people will end up in there? No, of course, that you do take symbolicaly, only the burning do you take literaly, funny picking and choosing....
The Quran says itself it are allegories
- The semblance of Paradise promised the pious and devout (is that of a garden) with streams of water that will not go rank, and rivers of milk whose taste will not undergo a change, and rivers of wine delectable to drinkers, and streams of purified honey, and fruits of every kind in them, and forgiveness of their Lord. Are these like those who will live for ever in the Fire and be given boiling water to drink which will cut their intestines to shreds?
Hello Mr. "Selfmade Prophet",
you have given answer yourself
- The semblance of Paradise promised the pious and devout (is that of a garden) with streams of water that will not go rank, and rivers of milk whose taste will not undergo a change, and rivers of wine delectable to drinkers, and streams of purified honey, and fruits of every kind in them, and forgiveness of their Lord. Are these like those who will live for ever in the Fire and be given boiling water to drink which will cut their intestines to shreds?
"Are these like those who will live for ever in the Fire and be given boiling water to drink which will cut their intestines to shreds?"
do you think soul/mind has intestines and shreds???
Sincerely,
VirtualEye. -
Peace,
self-made prophet? what is that for bull***t? Funny man you are VE. Slandering is easier then normal discussing. You have shown real muslim behaviour since you have been on the forum. Muhammed would have been proud of you....
Almost all scholars agree this allegorical, so this is not made up by me, do some research before you slander.....
Ahmed Ali
"Hell, The word Jahannam is of hebraic origin, consisting of Ji, valley, and Hannam, and meant the Valley of Hannam, south of Jerusalem, where in ancient times human sacrifices were made to Moluk, the deity of the Ammuniyin, and burnt, thus signifying the altar of humanity's sacrifice. in the Quran, heaven and hell are not eternal kingdoms as in the Bible, but contingent to and coterminous with the heavens and earth, as is evident from verses 106 to 108 of surah 11
And those who are doomed, will be in Hell For them will be sighing and sobbing,
Where they will dwell so long as heaven and earth endure, unless your Lord will otherwise. Verily your Lord does as He wills.
Those who are blessed will be in Paradise, where they will dwell so long as heaven and earth survive, unless your Lord wills otherwise This will be a gift uninterrupted.Paradise is a state of bliss, enjoyably worldy, so is Hell described as "the fire kindled by God which penetrates the hearts. it vaults them over in extending columns," in 1046-9. It is, thus, a sacred archetypal symbol, carrying both a moral and psycho-social meaning within its tautology and eschatological ultimacy. So is Yaum-al-Hasr, the day of Resurrection, the completion and consummation of life on earth. in the metonomy of the Quran resurrection signifies the rising of the dead so that each feel in person the effects of his good and evil deeds done on earth."
104
7. Which originates in the hearts
8. (And) vaults them over
9. In extending columns.The which doth mount (Right) to the Hearts
Which leapeth up over the hearts (of men).
Which rises above the hearts.
It burns them inside out.
which rises above the hearts.
which will rise over the heartsMuhammed Asad
originating in their hearts - thus clearly alluding to the spiritual nature of the "fire" in the sinners' belated realization of their guilt1533 Lit., "it has seven gates, to hell". Furthermore. it is well known that in the Semitic languages-and most particularly in classical Arabic-the number "seven" is often used in the sense of "several" or "various" (cf. Lisdn al-'Arab, Tdj al= Aras, etc.) and so the above Qur'anic phrase may well have the meaning of "various ways leading to hell" -in other words, many ways of sinning.
Dr.Shabbir
The Qur?an describes Hellfire and Paradise in metaphors and allegories that
lie within the physical means of our understanding. While the body dies, the
?Self? lives on and its destiny, whether Anguish or Bliss, is a logical
consequence and a built-in recompense of its doings.
A ?Self? that has actualized or primed itself by leading an upright life
respecting the Permanent Divine Values, and thus being a useful member of
society, belongs to Paradise. This process of self-actualization is facilitated by
a benevolent society. The development of a primed or actualized ?Self? goes
on in the Hereafter in Blissful Immortality.
On the other hand, a ?Self? that has stunted itself by succumbing to selfish
desire, fails to prime itself for further development. It merely survives in the
?Hell? of Anguish as opposed to
the Blissful Immortality of Paradise. (In this sense, stagnation is hell, and
progress is paradise).
So, we can understand the Qur?anic description of Hell and Paradise to some
but sufficient extent for our intellectual needs. To put it very briefly, here is my
humble understanding
640
PARADISE Men, women and children are brought into a new being in
exponentially higher physical and mental forms. Aging, pain, illness, death,
grief, fear, fatigue, negative emotions have no place in that Blissful Realm. It
is perpetual
Delight with ongoing growth of the personality.
The new human forms have intensely advanced capacities to do things they
want, even see a replay of their earthly lives and the entire world history.
They instantly get all they desire, and more! They get to meet with their
families and friends and any personalities that lived before or after them. They
are provided all they need and want without the least bit of toil.
HELLFIRE A life where the resurrected humans in the new higher physical
and mental forms have a life of Anguish. They are in a state of neither living
nor dying since their personalities make no progress. Yet, they see the Truth
more clearly. JAHIM (the Insurmountable Barrier) keeps them from
advancing. They are in a relentless state of Regret that they should have
done works to become worthy of Paradise.
The Qur'an categorically states, "The Hellfire originates in and engulfs the
hearts." In that Light, Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal correctly notes
that 'people carry their own fuel to the Fire'. (Yes, you are right, dear Mehgan,
that Allah does not punish anyone. It is only the logical carry over
consequences - and Allah, in His Infinite Mercy, will not let anyone be
"punished" eternally).
Hence, the understanding we get of the life Hereafter, although described
metaphorically in the Qur'an and not exactly comparable to what we know in
this life, is sufficiently clear FOR OUR MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL NEEDS.
An important note must be made here that the Hell or Paradise of a person
begins right here in this life.
Furthermore, the Divine System (in Biblical terms, the Kingdom of God)
established in a society ensures the earthly paradise, whereas an individual
or a collective life that is lived contrary to Divine Laws only builds a hell in
this world as well. In that sense, tomorrow is the Hereafter of today.
The following verses are just a few among those that will support my humble
submission
2119, 311, 3132, 586, 836, 949, 1335, 18100, 2691, 2955, 3213-17,
3536, 3653-67, 3678-79, 4715, 5721, 7430, 7826.We don't need to have the same views on things. As long we investigate where our views come from, and why we form them like we do.
Peace
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SYMBOLISM AND ALLEGORY IN THE QUR'AN
When studying the Quran, one frequently encounters what may be described as
"key?- phrases" - that is to say, statements which provide a clear, concise indication of the idea underlying a particular passage or passages for instance, the many references to the creation of man "out of dust" and "out of a drop of sperm", pointing to the lowly biological origin of the human species; or the statement in the ninety-ninth surah (Az-Zalzalah) that on Resurrection Day "he who shall have done an atom's weight of good, shall behold it; and he who shall have done an atom's weight of evil, shall behold it" - indicating the inelucctible afterlife consequences of, and the responsibility for, all that man consciously does in this world; or the divine declaration (in 3827), "We have not created heaven and earth and all that is between them without meaning and purpose (baatilan), as is the surmise of those who are bent on denying the truth."
Instances of such Quranic key-phrases can be quoted almost ad infinitum, and in many varying formulations. But there is one fundamental statement in the Quran which occurs only once, and which may be qualified as "the key-phrase of all its key-phrases" the statement in verse 37 to the effect that the Quran "contains messages that are clear in and by themselves (ayat-e-muhkamaat) as well as others that are allegorical (mutashabihaat)". It is this verse which represents, in an absolute sense, a key to the understanding of the Qur'anic message and makes the whole of it accessible to "people who think" (li-qawmin yatafakkarUn).
In my notes on the above-mentioned verse I have tried to elucidate the meaning of the expression ayaat muhkimaat as well as the general purport of what is termed mutashabih ("allegorical" or "symbolic". Without a proper grasp of what is implied by this latter term, much of the Qur~an is liable to be - and, in fact, has often been - grossly misunderstood both by believers and by such as refuse to believe in its divinely-inspired origin. However, an appreciation of what is meant by "allegory" or "symbolism" in the context of the Quran is, by itself, not enough to make one fully understand its world-view in order to achieve this we must relate the Quranic use of these terms to a concept touched upon almost at the very beginning of the divine writ - namely, the existence of "a realm which is beyond the reach of human perception" (aI-ghayb). It is this concept that constitutes the basic premise for an understanding of the call of the Quran, and, indeed, of the principle of religion - every religion - as such for all truly religious cognition arises from and is based on the fact that only a small segment of reality is open to man's perception and imagination, and that by far the larger part of it escapes his comprehension altogether.
However, side by side with this clear-cut metaphysical concept we have a not less clear-cut finding of a psychological nature namely, the finding that the human mind (in which term we comprise conscious thinking, imagination, dream-life, intuition, memory, etc.) can operate only on the basis of perceptions previously experienced by that very mind either in their entirety or in some of their constituent elements that is to say, it cannot visualize, or form an idea of, something that lies entirely outside the realm of previously realized experiences. Hence, whenever we arrive at a seemingly "new" mental image or idea, we find, on closer examination, that even if it is new as a composite entity, it is not really new as regards its component elements, for these are invariably derived from previous - and sometimes quite disparate - mental experiences which are now but brought together in a new combination or series of new combinations.
Now as soon as we realize that the human mind cannot operate otherwise than on the basis of previous experiences - that is to say, on the basis of apperceptions and cognitions already recorded in that mind - we are faced by a weighty question Since the metaphysical ideas of religion relate, by virtue of their nature, to a realm beyond the reach of human perception or experience - how can they be successfully conveyed too us? How can we he expected to grasp ideas which have no counterpart, not even a fractional one, in any of the apperceptions which we have arrived at empirically?
The answer is self-evident By means of loan-images derived from our actual - physical or mental - experiences; or, as Zamakhshari phrases it in his commentary on 1335, "through a parabolic illustration, by means of something which we know from our experience, of something that is beyond the reach of our perception" (tamtheelan li-ma ghaaba anna bi-ma nushaahid). And this is the innermost purport of the term and concept of al-mutashaabihaat as used in the Quran.
Thus, the Qur~an tells us clearly that many of its passages and expressions must be understood in an allegorical sense for the simple reason that, being intended for human understanding, they could not have been conveyed to us in any other way.. It follows, therefore, that if we were to take every Quranic passage, statement or expression in its outward, literal sense and disregard the possibility of its being an allegory, a metaphor or a parable, we would be offending against the very spirit of the divine writ.
Consider, for instance, some of the Quranic references to God's Being - Being indefinable, infinite in time and space, and utterly beyond any creature's comprehension. Far from being able to imagine Him, we can only realize what He is not namely, not limited in either time or space, not definable in terms of comparison, and not to be comprised within any category of human thought. Hence, only very generalized metaphors can convey to us, though most inadequately, the idea of His existence and activity.
And so, when the Quran speaks of Him as being "in the heavens" or "established on His throne (al-arsh)", we cannot possibly take these phrases in their literal senses, since then they would imply, however vaguely, that God is limited in space and since such a limitation would contradict the concept of an Infinite Being, we know immediately, without the least doubt that the "heavens" and the "throne" and God's being "established" on it are but linguistic vehicles meant to convey an idea which is outside all human experience, namely, the idea of God's almightiness and absolute sway over all that exists. Similarly, whenever He is described as "all-seeing", "all-hearing" or "all-aware", we know that these descriptions have nothing to do with the phenomena of physical seeing or hearing hut simply circumscribe, in terms understandable to man, the fact of God's eternal Presence in all that is or happens. And since "no human vision can encompass Him" (Quran 6103), man is not expected to realize His existence otherwise than through observing the effects of His unceasing activity within and upon the universe created by Him.
But whereas our belief in God's existence does not - and, indeed, could not - depend on our grasping the unfathomable "how" of His Being, the same is not the case with problems connected with man's own existence, and, in particular, with the idea of a life in the hereafter for, man's psyche is so constituted that it cannot accept any proposition relating to himself without being given a clear exposition of its purport.
The Quran tells us that man's life in this world is but the first stage - a very short stage - of a life that continues beyond the hiatus called "death" ; and the same Quran stresses again and again the principle of man's moral responsibility for all his conscious actions and his behaviour, and of the continuation of this responsibility, in the shape of inescapable consequences, good or bad, in a person's life in the hereafter. But how could man be made to understand the nature of these consequences and, thus, of the quality of the life that awaits him'? - for, obviously, inasmuch as man's resurrection will be the result of what the Quran describes as "a new act of creation", the life that will follow upon it must be entirely different from anything that man can and does experience in this world.
This being so, it is not enough for man to be told, "If you behave righteously in this world, you will attain to happiness in the life to come" , or, alternatively, "If you do wrong in this world, you will suffer for it in the hereafter". Such statements would be far too general and abstract to appeal to man's imagination and, thus, to influence his behaviour. What is needed is a more direct appeal to the intellect, resulting in a kind of "visualization" of the consequences of one's conscious acts and omissions and such an appeal can be effectively produced by means of metaphors, allegories and parables, each of them stressing, on the one hand, the absolute dissimilarity of all that man will experience after resurrection from whatever he did or could experience in this world; and, on the other hand, establishing means of comparison between these two categories of experience.
Thus, explaining the reference to the bliss of paradise in 3217, the Prophet indicated the essential difference between man's life in this world and in the hereafter in these words "God says, 'I have readied for My righteous servants what no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no heart of man has ever conceived"' (Bukh?ri, Muslim, Tirmidhi). On the other hand, in 225 the Quran speaks thus of the blessed in paradise "Whenever they are granted fruits therefrom as their appointed sustenance, they will say, 'It is this that in days of yore was granted to us as our sustenance' - for they shall be given something which will recall that
" and so we have the image of gardens through which running waters flow, blissful shade, spouses of indescribable beauty, and many other delights infinitely varied and unending, and yet somehow comparable to what may be conceived of as most delightful in this world.
However, this possibility of an intellectual comparison between the two stages of human existence is to a large extent limited by the fact that all our thinking and imagining is indissolubly connected with the concepts of finite time and finite space in other words, we cannot imagine infinity in either time or space - and therefore cannot imagine a state of existence independent of time and space - or, as the Qur'~n phrases it with reference to a state of happiness in afterlife, "a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth" (3133) which expression is the Qur'anic synonym for the entire created universe. On the other hand, we know that every Qur'anic statement is directed to man's reason and must, therefore, be comprehensible either in its literal sense (as in the case of the dy?t muhkamdt) or allegorically (as in the ayat-e-mutashaabihaat); and since, owing to the constitution of the human mind, neither infinity nor eternity are comprehensible to us, it follows that the reference to the infinite "vastness" of paradise cannot relate to anything but the intensity of sensation which it will offer to the blest.
By obvious analogy, the principle of a "comparison through allegory" applied in the Qur~?n to all references to paradise - i.e., a state of unimaginable happiness in afterlife - must be extended to all descriptions of otherworldly suffering - i.e., hell - in respect of its utter dissimilarity from all earthly experiences as well as its unmeasurable intensity. In both cases the descriptive method of the Qur'?n is the same. We are told, as it
were "Imagine the most joyous sensations, bodily as well as emotional, accessible to man indescribable beauty, love physical and spiritual, conscious?ness of fulfilment, perfect peace and harmony; and imagine these sensations intensified beyond anything imaginable in this world - and at the same time entirely different from anything imaginable and you have an inkling, however vague, of what is meant by 'paradise'." And, on the other
hand "Imagine the greatest suffering, bodily as well as spiritual, which man may experience burning by fire, utter loneliness and bitter desolation, the torment of unceasing frustration, a condition of neither living nor dying; and imagine this pain, this darkness and this despair intensified beyond anything imaginable in this world - and at the same time entirely different from anything imaginable and you will know, however vaguely, what is meant by 'hell'."
Side by side with these allegories relating to man's life after death we find in the Qur'?n many symbolical expressions referring to the evidence of God's activity. Owing to the limitations of human language - which, in their turn, arise from the inborn limitations of the human mind - this activity can only be circumscribed and never really described. Just as it is impossible for us to imagine or define God's Being, so the true nature of His creativeness - and, therefore, of His plan of creation - must remain beyond our grasp. But since the Quran aims at conveying to us an ethical teaching based, precisely, on the concept of God's purposeful creativeness, the latter must be, as it were, "translated" into categories of thought accessible to man. Hence the use of expressions which at first sight have an almost anthropomorphic hue, for instance, God's "wrath" (ghadab) or "condemnation"; His "pleasure" at good deeds or "love" for His creatures; or His being "oblivious" of a sinner who was oblivious of Him; or "asking" a wrongdoer on Resurrection Day about his wrongdoing; and so forth. All such verbal "translations" of God's activity into human terminology are unavoidable as long as we are expected to conform to ethical principles revealed to us by means of a human language; but there can be no greater mistake than to think that these "translations" could ever enable us to define the Undefinable.
And, as the Quran makes it clear in the seventh verse 37, only "those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out confusion, and seeking its final meaning but none save God knows its final meaning, and the people endowned with knowledge."
Muhammed Asad
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Peace,
self-made prophet? what is that for bull***t? Funny man you are VE. Slandering is easier then normal discussing. You have shown real muslim behaviour since you have been on the forum. Muhammed would have been proud of you....
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.......Hello "Mufti", hehe,,,,,
Dont be onfire....I used to address you metaphorically !
Anyway.Mr. arnoldyasin,
Now I come to know which quranic translations you are using. I must say that you are right in your point because the unreliable translations you are using explain this way.
Ahmed Ali has tried to make everything possible for Shia sect, to name maatam, prophecy of Hazrat Ali etc.
Muhammad Asad's translation is mainly the source of Quran Only thinkers like you. So I dont agree to this translator.
and when two translators you are using are like this,,,then I can guess who the Dr. Shabbir would be (I can just guess).
If you want to really give some reference to me then try to consult Pickthal's or Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation.
I am thankful for your effort to answer me.
Sincerely,
VirtualEye. -
Peace,
Is fine VE. But one thing Ahmed Ali was no shia, even Fazlur Rahman, one of Americans prominent sunni Professors acknowledge him as one of the best translators. And we will disagree on the subject because we approach it from different angles. And that is ok, we still both don't want to end up in hell.
Peace
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Peace,
Is fine VE. But one thing Ahmed Ali was no shia, even Fazlur Rahman, one of Americans prominent sunni Professors acknowledge him as one of the best translators. And we will disagree on the subject because we approach it from different angles. And that is ok, we still both don't want to end up in hell.
Peace
If you reflect what is wrong in using Yusuf Ali's translation then I would better understand.
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Peace,
I have used Yusuf's Ali translation above, and yes, he made some grave mistakes and some beautifull translation of some verses. So there is not directly wrong with his translation, it is about how you approach the Quran and its uses of words, that is what is wrong with him. But i will respect your request, and include his translation as well. But this is how he approached the Quran, why i don't agree with his approach
On the Last day, the Prophet will say that the people has chained the Quran
The prophet will say "O my Lord, my people had fettered(chained) the Qur'an." (2530)
(A horse or camel tied head to foot was called mahjoor, and the rope used for tying, al-hijaar(Taj). The Quran today is thus fettered by custom and tradition, hearsay reports compiled centuries later, and laws and by-laws enacted by men, each group having its own fiqah and shariah, which are held more sacrosanct and given predence over the Quran). -
Peace arnoldyasin and all. Very interesting analysis of allegory and symbolism in the quran. Like i have been saying,taking some of the verses literally creates inconsistencies in the text,and the article seems to suggest that 37 agrees with this as well.
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I wasn't sure what a hell creature was, so I left it alone.
Assalamu Alaykum administrator,
Hell creatures are those adressed by verse 986
Those who rejected among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.
Now you know what a hell creature is, so pls vote.
peace
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peace kestrel,
Those who rejected among the people of the scripture, and the idol worshipers, have incurred the fire of Gehenna forever. They are the worst creatures.
aren't we also the people of the scripture, isn't the criterion also a scripture? so if any of us "abandons" the word of god and chooses to be ignorant about the facts of life while knowing isn't he/she also a hell creature.
i did not vote because i do not posses enough knowledge to verify what type of person jhon paul II was, so i do not know whether he is a hell creature.
peace, rifat
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Peace all
Brother arnold, I was wondering where you got the commentaries from, specifically the Dr. Shabbir one. I am interested in reading it. Is it online? or do you have it in text form? Thanks.
Peace.
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Peace CavemanDoctor,
Most of Dr. Shabbir's commentary can be found in his exposition of the Qur'an called QXP. Here's the link to his website where you can download this exposition and some of his other writings. I must say, it was his forum and exposition, as well as his feedback that helped me in overcoming my preconceptions.
http//ourbeacon.com/
Peace,
Tay -
I dont care what yall says. Good old babylonian fish hat, is the devil himself. Whatever good these fucktards (popes) are doing are fully lost in all filth and degeneracy of their organisation.
http//patricio00.com/post/imagenes/crocodylus.jpg
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Peace tay and all.Some of Shabbirs translations (qxp,2nd edition.) seem to be very good translations...he explains the symbolisms and terms of the quran well...very good ideas from dr shabbir.
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Peace,
Dr.Shabbir made some grevious mistakes in some verses, and takes a bit to much freedom sometimes, but in one thing he sticks above the rest, he tries to use his logic, and doesn't appraoch the Quran through mythology. So i use his, Ahmed Ali's, Freeminds and Muhammed Asad's, as i'm still busy with Arabic. But these together plus some extra insights on the real meaning of malika and so on, i get the best understandings as far as i can.