Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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For the people who believe in al-quraan, some humble thoughts regarding this exchance.
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Please notice Enquirer is now CHANGING THE SUBJECT. The subject is 'are there any contradictions in al-quraan'. This is a simple yes/no question but now, we now have to pander to what HE believes. Who cares what he believes in? Are there any contradictions, yes or no ? THAT'S the question.
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Enquirer's assumptions are NEVER questioned.
a. What is 'moral' ?
b.What is 'good'?
c. What is 'open-minded'?
d. Why is modernity automatically accepted as 'good'?
Do ask him these things because his understanding of them are as shaky as his understanding of al-quraan. It's no good accepting his assumptions and defending al-quraan while pandering to his precarious assumptions.
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Peace darbari. Those are not contradictions?...ok.....if you want
to explain why these are not contradictions,im happy to listen to your account....I have now explained in detail in my posts why i dont agree with them,as they are inconsistent in the 'modern age' to always take literally,and they dont agree with my morality when taken literally...
And remind me of your explanations that you want me to address,please? -
Peace mquran. Read my opening post on this thread,then see your strawman analysis,and assumptions about my questions....changing the subject?...see what i wrote in my first post in opening the thread...Please cut and paste,or quote it to prove that im changing the original topic....Dont let you emotional attachment to quran blind your reading,reason,humanity,and analytical processes.
ps;do unverified allegations without 4 witnesses count as slander,or does it deserve 80 lashes?... ) -
Isn't it amazing that a "1400 year old book" talks of people in this era?
Peace bro
Honest to Allah man, this is one of the main things that made me believe that the Quran is the words of Allah, this discovery happened to me in my early twinties, how amazing this book is bro, humans will be lost without the Quran, they are now lost to a degree because they dont implement the Quran, even the majority of the muslims themselves
Peace
Peace bro,
Agreed. When people adamantly refuse/deny God's words and instead they follow other people or even themselves... they will be lost. That is true ego, when they think they are better than what God revealed!
Chapter 63
- When the hypocrites come to you they Say ?We bear witness that you are the messenger of God.? And God knows that you are His messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.
- They have chosen their oath as a deceit, thus they repel from the path of God. Miserable indeed is what they do.
- That is because they believed, then disbelieved. Hence, their hearts are sealed; they do not understand.
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I think that the title of this should be Contradictions and inconsistencies in the "understanding" and "translation" of the Quran. But this title is also ok, because its ok to examine the Quran. However, I do not see any contradictions and inconsistencies in the Quran. Lashing and cutting of hands at exteam crime are cool. It is because at that level of crime there are distructions of families and the societies leading to the death of many people and disruption of the harmony in Allah's system.
Peace
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Peace bmbmm. Im glad you understand my point doctor... )
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Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
Thank you... -
Peace mquran.Read my opening post on this thread,then see your strawman analysis,and assumptions about my questions....changing the subject?
Why are you suddenly answering me ? I thought you're blanking me since I'm answering all your cut-and-paste 'contradictions', i mean since i'm not being 'civil', lol.
...see what i wrote in my first post in opening the thread...Please cut and paste,or quote it to prove that im changing the original topic...
Prove? Wow, so you do care about proof after all? Or is just when you think you're right?
Here it is, for your convenience
Peace all. Because people insist on a literal and 'perfect' interpretation of the quran they leave their book open to contradictions and inconsistencies...If only they viewed their book as a source of potential symbolic wisdom,and not an unverified,literal,perfect idol,then they might actually get to follow god...and not just the quran.
I will start with the first contradiction; 478 and 479. Is evil from god or us? The literal translation is contradictory....Explain please.So the point made here, since people insist on a perfect and literal interpretation, they'll leave the book open to contradictions.
Let me now ask you With your FIRST example, was the so-called contradiction of 4/78-79 due to a literal/metaphorical issue or simply due to the fact the accuser has comprehension problems and never really read the actual verse but a poor translation?
Could this be the same accuser who says 'al-quraan calls for interpretation JUST by self-reference' ? Come on Enquirer, honestly just grow up. The fact of the matter is, you've simply not done your work.
Look at your last posts
dont agree with any interpretations which brand as disbelievers,peaceful people,because of their different or incorrect beliefs.( ie trinity,god is a part of man,so called 'atheists' etc,but are otherwise peaceful in behaviour..how many muslims or 'quran only' people have 'incorrect beliefs',yet are not 'branded,why the sectarian favouritism?)....
Let me ask you, has your view anything to do with it? The subject isn't 'your view' but instead is 'does al-quraan have any contradictions'.
fyi The passage above shows your reading al-quraan the way a sunni would. This shows your lack of familiarity with Parwez, Shabbir etc. I wonder how you have the cheek to extol yourself and still come up with stuff like this?
.Dont let you emotional attachment to quran blind your reading,reason,humanity,and analytical processes.
Pal, you don't know what reasoning is. You never use it. If you did, you could tell me what 'harmful' means. Why doesn't your 'heart' where God resides make a show of itself and help you out?
ps;do unverified allegations without 4 witnesses count as slander,or does it deserve 80 lashes?...
Haha, in another 25 years, you can study sura 24 and see that lashing accusations are only for lewdness. With this statement above alone, we can see how much reading you've done.
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Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
ANOTHER subject change as our learned accuser has run out of arguments (or never had them to begin with).
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Bmbmm, that's certainly the crux of the matter but our professor of moral philosophy here thinks al-quraan is outdated because it prescribes certain punishements. Ask him, since he's your friend
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Does the fact that something pre-exist something else make the newer thing better?
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If so, how is it better ? Provide a measurement for betterness?
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What makes a law effective?
These are simple questions which I guranteee your friend will not answer.
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Bmbmm, that's certainly the crux of the matter but our professor of moral philosophy here thinks al-quraan is outdated because it prescribes certain punishements. Ask him, since he's your friend
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Does the fact that something pre-exist something else make the newer thing better?
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If so, how is it better ? Provide a measurement for betterness?
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What makes a law effective?
These are simple questions which I guranteee your friend will not answer.
I think he will and I hope everything get more clear, hopefully ;D
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Peace enquirer,
Peace zenje. Just for my curiousity...If a person had the same 'moral' rules that you say the quran propogates,but he arrived at them independently (without the quran.),what would you make of him?...(assume this person has either not come across the quran,or has only had access to very 'poor'/incorrect translations?)...
Thank you...I thought I had clarified before, but here it is... First, it's between this person and his Creator. The way I see it, he has nothing to fear. Secondly, if this is in regard to my post earlier, please note that I had mentioned an example of people who adamantly refuse/deny quran. Not someone who has no access or not read it.
I hope this helps.
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Peace mquran and all. Answers to your your questions;
- current systems are not always better than previous systems and vice versa..
- the measurement for 'betterness' is the 'practical' success of a certain system compared to another.
- A law is effective if it achieves its aims,and the aims should be human benefit.
There you go...i somehow feel you will still find fault with something i have said...
You also showed your guarantee i wouldnt answer to be wrong,and emotionally presumptous...maybe you should think about your opinions more,and what you post...if you can mistakes in what you assumed my first post in the thread was,and that i wouldnt reply to your 3 questions...then maybe you can make mistakes in interpreting the quran...just a thought. -
Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.
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Peace enquirer and all
I've tried hard not to get involved in this thread. I had to bite though. I'm trying to help you out here, enquirer, and explain to you why so many people have a problem with what you are doing. I can see three reasons
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You very casually toss out alleged contradictions without giving verse numbers, without posting your translation of the verses, and without explaining why you think its a contradiction. You can't just toss out 10 "contradictions" in one sentence and then ask for someone to clear up the "contradiction" when you yourself haven't pointed out why they are contradictions. It is very intellectually dishonest or lazy, or both.
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When people respond to your alleged contradictions, you either a) ignore them, b) smugly dismiss them, or c) accuse them of being emotional/defensive. This, again, is intellectually dishonest. Respond to the arguments! Forget the people. Why resort to ad hominem attacks? (I agree that others do that in here as well, so please don't think I'm being biased, I don't agree with a lot of methods in here, including those of AhmedBagat's). You post an alleged contradiction; someone responds. Why not counter their response? This is how healthy debate works and this is how we come to understandings. And your consistent failure to do this raises a lot of eyebrows, including mine, and makes us wonder, "does he actually want to have a fruitful discussion or is there some other motive here?"
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You tend to assume a lot of things about the posters here. Assuming really gets us nowhere, especially in a forum like this where there are so many diverse beliefs/philosophies. For example, you keep bringing up this whole "don't take the entire Qur'an literally" idea. I honestly don't know a single person in here who takes the Qur'an 100% literally. This is a straw man you have created. When God says He sits on his Arsh (Throne), do we take that literally? I don't know a single person who thinks so. So really, continually going on and on about "dont take it all literally" really doesn't add much to the discussion as we, in a sense, already agree with you.
Peace.
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There you go...i somehow feel you will still find fault with something i have said...
Fault? I have further questions to ask, sure but because God lives inside your heart, I expect your answers to be faultless
And no, I'm not through yet.
You also showed your guarantee i wouldnt answer to be wrong,and emotionally presumptous...
Can you please show me where I guranteed this? I can't find it for some reason.
maybe you should think about your opinions more,and what you post...if you can mistakes in what you assumed my first post in the thread was,and that i wouldnt reply to your 3 questions...then maybe you can make mistakes in interpreting the quran...just a thought
Maybe I can make mistakes? There's no maybe about it. I CAN and HAVE made mistakes. However, what I've been asking you and the 'quranic relativist' camp is, kindly bring evidence to prove my points wrong. Now, lets move on to your questions, shall we
- current systems are not always better than previous systems and vice versa
Duly noted.
2)the measurement for 'betterness' is the 'practical' success of a certain system compared to another
Excellent. Can you please describe or give examples of this practical 'success' (sucess being the operative word in this question).
- A law is effective if it achieves its aims,and the aims should be human benefit.
Kindly provide a definition for 'benefit'. Does it refer to a hedonistic benefit or a benefit pertaining to fulfilment of needs?
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Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.
Zenje will have a better answer , I'm sure but if you care to know, my answer is simply that if anyone reads al-quraan sincerely but only had access to poor translations and rejects them (like 'kill disbelievers' nonsense), then Quranically, Allah will not judge him badly. Al-Quraan has never posited itself as a MUST-have for salvation. However, if al-quraan really does strike one as ultimate truth and he rejects it, he will then be a disbeliever.
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Peace zenje. Just to clarify a point, what about someone who has only come across very poor translations,and so rejects these poor translations...and continues living his life according to 'quranic' morals which he has derived from his own experiences and intelligence? Thank you.
Zenje will have a better answer , I'm sure but if you care to know, my answer is simply that if anyone reads al-quraan sincerely but only had access to poor translations and rejects them (like 'kill disbelievers' nonsense), then Quranically, Allah will not judge him badly. Al-Quraan has never posited itself as a MUST-have for salvation. However, if al-quraan really does strike one as ultimate truth and he rejects it, he will then be a disbeliever.
Nope, I don't have a better answer, that sums it up quite good. ;D As I said before, good/poor translations do not guide/misguide the person... think about it.
Peace