Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?

mquran

Mquran and ab,i will cease 'debating' with you two for my peace,your peace,and the forums peace. I dont feel much is being achieved in the way of 'peace'in our 'dialogues'... I will reply to points i disagree with from you two,but i will not enter into a dialogue...Take it easy.

Hehe, I thought as much. Lote-tree, is this the limit of your capacities? You come here with that arrogant 'im too good for this book' demeanor of yours and field questions and when they are answered, you run away. Is this the 'being good' philosophy you were talking about, Lote-tree?

Cease debating? How can you cease what you never began?

Let me remind you of your claims

You claimed al-quraan is JUST self-referential. No proof.
You claimed al-quraan prescribes 80 lashes punishement for accusation. No proof.
You claimed to have read 'nearly' all of the posts of Shabbir, Parwez etc yet you don't even know of a topic which was PERENNIAL in Bazm forum for a long time. I didnt go for the hard questions pal, you trip at the easiest hurdle.

Face facts, you didn't do your research and now when your views are on the verge of being ripped open, you RUN again. There's no other word for it but shameful. Honestly, I expected better from one who has escaped the clutches of religion.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Enquirer, why do you keep claiming you knwo the Quran, and keep making these dumb mistakes

virgin births,fire not burning abraham,sticks into snakes,sea parting with a staff,man in belly of whale etc

Nowhere it is mentioned in the Quran about strike the sea with your stick, nowhere does it mention Jonah ending up in a belly and so on. These are mostly not metaphorical or literal discussions, but what it realy says in Arabic. And the things like the virgin births and so on, we read with distorted glasses left over from the past, and approach it as it was a virgin birth, while the Quran doesn't say anything about it, only that mary was a chaste women, and if you look at how fire is used in the Quran, you can see automaticaly that is used metaphoricaly in almost every verse mentioned, so in this way it is not the discussion how we look at it, but at how the Quran looks at it. And the Arabic and the order of the verses shows those things are not said in the Quran. So this is not metaphorical issue, but a language one...

Peace

mquran

Enquirer, why do you keep claiming you knwo the Quran, and keep making these dumb mistakes

Arnold, don't expect anything else. This person who screams about God in his heart must be acting on his 'gods' command. His god tells him, lead people on, WASTE THEIR TIME and when they have pandered to your request, let them down. It's like Bush's God but somewhat less malevolent.

If he's still responding to you, Arnold, ask him where al-quraan enjoins interpretation by JUST self-reference. The man rants about 'literal' and 'metaphor' and doesn't even know what al-quraan says about it.

mquran

.If you want to have a dialogue,then please address some of my questions i have given you in my most recent posts (about why these 'miracles' ,if literal, do not occur today,and can not be proven by science or verified etc..)...I was 'criticised' by many for not answering questions...So i am trying answer your questions...If the courtesy of answering is not re-paid,then i fell there is little point in having a dialogue?...I think thats fair?...

Did the God in your heart tell you to lie, Enquirer? Did you answer to my FIRST response regarding 4/78-79?

unknownuser

Peace arnoldayasin. If you wish,you can read my previous posts in this thread...,you will see what my position is,and the points i have made...To be honest i think you are misunderstanding me,and looking at my previous posts might rectify this...
As i have said before the quran properly interpreted can be a great,beneficial book...If you feel that the way you interpret the quran,means that there are no inconsistencies in it,then thats fine by me...as long as you benefit in practical behaviour from the book....
I was looking for other posters also to answer these 'literal' verses,and how they interpret them... if people are too 'sensitive',or feel 'attacked' then i will probably not respond,as i dont feel there is any benefit in such dialogues.
Peace all.

guest

Salam ahmed bahgat,

I believe?..blah blah
I think ??.blah blah
It seems ?.. blah blah
Most likely ?.. blah blah
Possibly ?.. blah blah
Probably ?. blah blah

What we need is one word bro

Certainly it is ?. Blah blah,

I found the above statement is nothing but crap to be honest

look bro i warn you to talk ill about me again, because simply if you do again you have to carry the consequnces of your BS

My intention is obvious and clear, I don?t need to explain it further, I have almost 2000 posts and in many of these posts I explained my stand clearly

most of your posts are nothing but blah blah blah, full of crab and bs ;D

ps carry own with your blah blah blah .

mquran

Peace arnoldayasin. If you wish,you can read my previous posts in this thread...,you will see what my position is,and the points i have made...To be honest i think you are misunderstanding me,and looking at my previous posts might rectify this...

Enquirer style
I claim contradiction.
People explain.
I go blank.

As i have said before the quran properly interpreted can be a great,beneficial book...If you feel that the way you interpret the quran,means that there are no inconsistencies in it,then thats fine by me...as long as you benefit in practical behaviour from the book....

Define 'properly interpreted'. Is it 'interpreted to suit the delusions of the great Enquirer guy'. 'Interpreted' here means 'convoluted', really. The strange thing is, Enquirer cannot even tell us what he means by 'bad, good, old, outdated' etc. What he can do is wax lyrical and tell us how above all that he is.

I was looking for other posters also to answer these 'literal' verses,and how they interpret them... if people are too 'sensitive',or feel 'attacked' then i will probably not respond,as i dont feel there is any benefit in such dialogues.

Counter-respond to the first one, then answer my questions and I'll be happy to deal with the issue with you.

Elena

Peace mquran

I don't mean 'ignore', no. I mean 'rejections' in the sense of 'concealment' (literally kufr). You recognise something is al-haqq (truth in the ultimate level) but choose to conceal it from your life.

Thanks.

It's strange, isn't it?, to recognise something as true and still trying to conceal it from one's life. Is it like knowing that Coke is harmful for the body and still drinking it? If not, I didn't understand the concet yet. What is 'conceal from your life'? If you know it, how can it be concealed? Tell it me with an example please.

mquran

It's strange, isn't it?, to recognise something as true and still trying to conceal it from one's life. Is it like knowing that Coke is harmful for the body and still drinking it? If not, I didn't understand the concet yet. What is 'conceal from your life'? If you know it, how can it be concealed? Tell it me with an example please.

I think self-delusion can easily conceal certain things from oneself. Its just a matter of one side of the nafs hiding it from the other. Your coke example is certainly a good example as any I can think of.

Fahad1

Peace darbari. If you re-read my previous post it contains the answers to your current post...The interpretation from the 'parveez' methodology (also some on this forum share this same understanding too.) was that the phrase 'allahs sunnat' referred to allahs laws never changing,and so this meant that all the virgin births,fire not burning abraham,sticks into snakes,sea parting with a staff,man in belly of whale etc... verses were taken 'metaphorically by this 'methodology' to prevent inconsistencies in understanding the text.

so when i explain that there are no contradictions between the verses , u will just say "umm... no , i was refering to the other interpretation of the verses" ?!

why dont u show us why my interpretation is wrong and why Pervaiz type interpretation is correct ?

If you want to have a dialogue,then please address some of my questions i have given you in my most recent posts (about why these 'miracles' ,if literal, do not occur today,and can not be proven by science or verified etc..)...I was 'criticised' by many for not answering questions...So i am trying answer your questions...If the courtesy of answering is not re-paid,then i fell there is little point in having a dialogue?...I think thats fair?...

ok . but u haven?t really addressed my explanation yet . and by the way , I asked u to list your favourite contradictions in the initial post , please . so they can be discuss one by one . let us finish this one first , then u can move on to the next . is that fair ?

bmbmm

I think the title "Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?" made some people felt like there balls being crushed ;D. I am glad eq put a Question Mark (?) after it. Take it easy folks, its just a question to ponder. I believe if a Christian or a Jew as question like this would not have got so much rude replies.

Peace

unknownuser

Salam ahmed bahgat,

I believe..blah blah
I think .blah blah
It seems .. blah blah
Most likely .. blah blah
Possibly .. blah blah
Probably . blah blah

What we need is one word bro

Certainly it is . Blah blah,

I found the above statement is nothing but crap to be honest

look bro i warn you to talk ill about me again, because simply if you do again you have to carry the consequnces of your BS

My intention is obvious and clear, I dont need to explain it further, I have almost 2000 posts and in many of these posts I explained my stand clearly

most of your posts are nothing but blah blah blah, full of crab and bs ;D

ps carry own with your blah blah blah P.

Hehe, but I'm glad you still read it, and also glad that you chose to be a coward and post your comment under a guest, LOL, i'm not that scary hey

unknownuser

Peace bmbmm and darbari and all. Bmbmm;Thanks for your understanding bmbmm. ) Im glad you noticed i did put a question mark in my first post on this threads title,and i also explained many,many times that its the way the text is literally interpreted sometimes,which makes the text contradict...Maybe i am not explaining myself clearly enought to others,or they are misunderstanding me....I agree,in some circumstances if a christian or jew asked these questions they would have received more politenesss and constructive replies...
Its unusual how scientists can disagree on fundamental theories,yet do not resort to too much 'sensitivity',name calling,and branding if they are cornered or dont know a certain answer,but will probably agree to disagree or do more research on the issue...Can you imagine if all scientists were sensitive and/or narrow minded?...We might not even have invented penicillin,x-rays,the steam engine,or stitl think the earth was flat etc...
I think you will agree as a scientist,that positive progression in any field requires open-mindedness,questioning of established theories,research,creativity and listening correctly to the views of others...do you think a scientist can discover something jusy by reading the quran,or sticking rigidly to their own pre-conceived or untested theories?...Especially with some of todays questionable translations!!!
I notice that some 'quran only' people are allowed to 'between themselves' differ on many issues of interpretation to a huge degree...eg some believe in physical salat,physical hajjj,while others do not,some believe angels are emotions and some believe they are something else,some believe in literal interpretations,some metaphorical....Yet when i say i believe in some of the 'universal' knowledge that the quran points out for us to discover and verify...,but disagree on the perceived origin of the quran and its scope,then i get crititcism from many angles...
You know some who believe in the quran believe its essential to follow the quran for success,while others who believe in it say you have to follow the universal laws in it which can be found from other sources,and so the quran is not 100% necessary for success....To me does it really matter what source you follow as long as you are doing practical,constructive,moral deeds with good intentions and an open,humble mind?...

Darbari; I feel we are getting bogged down again,i have clarified my position now several times ..i am not trying to convert you to my exact way of thinking,and you have not converted me to your exact way of thinking,you can verify for yourself and i can verify for myself,i think thats fair...if you want to believe certain things about the quran then thats fine to me,as long as you live your life with good intentions and practically follow good morality...In my posts i feel i have answered some of your questions,if you feel you want to refute some of my statements then do so...You can see the points i have made in this thread repeated several times over,and even condensed and repeated by me and danish...Arnoldyasin also addressed the points i made in his posts on this thread... To be honest i still personally feel that not many have actually responded as to why/how some of these inconsistencies can be ironed out,or are not inconsistencies...I actually had to write a reply to my own question to explain how these inconsistencies could be 'explained away'...(one of my posts in this thread was me writing a 'hypothetical' reply to myself... ).) Bmbmm made a good point about how i would be addressed if i were christian or jewish...,i do belive that not many would be convinced by the replies i have received towards this thread,i dont think you can say every jew or christian that is not convinced by peoples explanations of the quran is 'narrow-minded' or has ' bad intentions'...You know when moses addressed pharaoh (who was supposedly a tyrant and commiting great mishief in the earth.),didnt allah send him with 'clear proofs' and ask him to speak decently and eloquently?...People getting emotional and sensitive over a topic is not always conducive to 'clear proofs' and 'constructive criticism...' I myself probably made mistakes in my 'too direct'(or even harsh.) approach,under-estimation of the need for sensitivity to peoples beliefs,and my under-estimation of the vast array of different interpretations/ beliefs and how long it would take to answer every different question satisfactorily....For which i again,apologise. My position/aim is not to be-little the quran,or those who take great morality and inspiration from it,but to question certain 'immoral',inconsistent and illogical interpretations of the book... Thank you for your time,and take it easy... )
Peace all. ps;i hope in future we can address this topic in a more 'constructive' way.

mquran

Bmbmm I think the title "Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?" made some people felt like there ball being crushed . I am glad eq put a Question Mark (?) after it. Take it easy folks, its just a question to ponder. I believe if a Christian or a Jew as question like this would not have good so much rude replies.

Take it easy? How much easier do you want it? So far, everything your friend has deigned to mention has been answered and his response asked for. However, he doesn't see it befitting his station as an enlightened seeker (sic) to respond to us deluded plebs. It's not a question of ease but of decency that your friend has none.

unknownuser

Peace all. Just to clarify a point...I do not, by any means,think everybody in here is illogical or incorrect,nor do i feel 'superior' to them...We all have different ways of understanding and practically applying ideas and opinions...I also would say that trying to determines a persons character solely on his posts,can be a misleading and fruitless endeavour...
A lot of times what is being debated is a 'subjective' opinion/view...And im sure we are entitled to have these views,as long as they do not 'unnecessarily' harm others,and also that these 'views' lead to good,positive,rational behaviour'...
Peace all.

mquran

Peace bmbmm and darbari and all. Bmbmm;Thanks for your understanding bmbmm. Im glad you noticed i did put a question mark in my first post on this threads title,and i also explained many,many times that its the way the text is literally interpreted sometimes,which makes the text contradict...Maybe i am not explaining myself clearly enought to others,or they are misunderstanding me....I agree,in some circumstances if a christian or jew asked these questions they would have received more politenesss and constructive replies...

This is a nice way to get out of it. While you have asserted this is 'literal/metaphorical' artifact in your discouse, you have upheld none of it. Your first assertion was 4/78-79. Pray tell, how does changing the literal/metaphorical dimension of those verses eliminate its 'contradiction' ?

Its unusual how scientists can disagree on fundamental theories,yet do not resort to too much 'sensitivity',name calling,and branding if they are cornered or dont know a certain answer,but will probably agree to disagree or do more research on the issue...Can you imagine if all scientists were sensitive and/or narrow minded?...We might not even have invented penicillin,x-rays,the steam engine,or stitl think the earth was flat etc...

A true scientist also doesn't go 'do you really believe so and so' (as you did in your first post) then when the cards are on the table, go silent as a post. I hope you don't fancy yourself a 'scientist' as that would really be an insult to the word.

I notice that some 'quran only' people are allowed to 'between themselves' differ on many issues of interpretation to a huge degree...eg some believe in physical salat,physical hajjj,while others do not,some believe angels are emotions and some believe they are something else,some believe in literal interpretations,some metaphorical....

Eh ? Would a scientist whine 'but you people disagree bla bla bla' like a two year old or would he acknowledge the differences and use the Quran as a measure to determine the right view? In your TWENTY-FIVE YEARS of reading, you're telling me what stopped you was DIFFERENCES in opinion? Rubbish.

Yet when i say i believe in some of the 'universal' knowledge that the quran points out for us to discover and verify...,but disagree on the perceived origin of the quran and its scope,then i get crititcism from many angles...

Criticism, yes. Is anyone coming to lynch you? No. The idea of criticism is draw out the rational fallacies of a certain view. This is why you dare not answer the questions posed. It's not due to the so-called rudeness but due to the fact that you do not want your bubble to burst. We could send a procession led by the queen and give you the questions engraved in gold and you still wouldn't answer.

Darbari; I feel we are getting bogged down again,i have clarified my position now several times ..i am not trying to convert you to my exact way of thinking,and you have not converted me to your exact way of thinking,you can verify for yourself and i can verify for myself,i think thats fair...if you want to believe certain things about the quran then thats fine to me,as long as you live your life with good intentions and practically follow good morality...

This should henceforth be instituted in the Oxford Dictionary under the entry 'humbled'. A far cry from this guy here
Peace mquran. Do you think all of the quran is literally relevent to todays society? Do you take the quran as superior to what you can see/verify with your own mind/eyes? Where is bird flu,aids,nuclear weapons,global warming,chemistry,medical breakthroughs,cancer,chemical warfare,social statistics,social research,psychological research,esp,detailed dream analysis,quantum physics,gulf wars,tsunamis,pregnancy tests,pregnancy scans, etc.. directly in the quran?
who was so confident in his modernist ideology.

To be honest i still personally feel that not many have actually responded as to why/how some of these inconsistencies can be ironed out,or are not inconsistencies...I actually had to write a reply to my own question to explain how these inconsistencies could be 'explained away'...(

Point out these and explain why. Merely ranting about them shows intellectual dishonesty and/or poverty.

Peace all. ps;i hope in future we can address this topic in a more 'constructive' way

When people of decency and integrity , it can happen. Otherwise, don't count on it.

arnoldyasin

The difference in understandings has not to do with the text itself. It has to do with the psychology of words. Our subconciousness is programmed from birth, and words and meanings are thaught to us. So most people on this site, don't differ because of different truths, but differ because they don't understand, what is true and not true from their filled-in subconciousness. Some will not even admit, that can be the case. So it is not a matter of reason, but of psychology. How fixed are people's concepts, and why are they holding on to it.

Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language. But most people read them as fixed titles, the meaning already filled-in, pre-programmed. And by not admitting this, are stuck in their views.

I will give an example, the Greek word, apocolypse, means revelation. All people on this site and in the monotheistic world, understand this word as meaning the end of times, which is nonsense. The word got its own meaning, a new fixed meaning, and by thus becoming a 'title'. And the meaning was filled-in through a scripture, that is called apocolypse. Isn't this interresting? A simple Greek word, changed from revealing/revelation, into meaning the end of the world, with all the myths that surrounds these events. So the original meaning is ignored, and forgotten, and the new given meaning is held sancronant. All because of one book, with a certain story about the end of times, carries this title. So it is not always, the true meaning from the language, that makes a word, most of the time, it is a historical moment, where people addapted the word, giving it a new meaning, by 'accident'. And people after that follow this meaning blindly. And get confused when the real meaning is shown to them. Like also with the word khalifa, which new meaning was concocted 200 years after the prophet. Whereby several Abbasin princes where fighting over the power, and demanded some extra support. The scholars, then made this title, out of the Quran, into a political one. And calling the first leaders, by the same title, making it by thus, 'historicaly correct', covering their traces. And by so, giving the person who carried the title now, special status, by the created link.

This is exactly what happened to a lot of words as jinn, meaning spirits, while in reality, it refers to things not seen/rarely seen, and its meaning in the Quran is different with every verse, as it is based on the contexts. Same even with sjeitan, iblis, meaning just opponent, rebel. Not devil, or evil thing. Salaat meaning contact, runner-up. All these words original meanings are ignored, and by thus loosing its real meaning, blocking us from seeing the real message. This is with a lot of words, that have created meanings, like apocolypse, with a whole background and image behind them. Totaly fixed and filled in, not by the Quran, but by our backgrounds. Even the word quran, meaning just reading, became a fixed title. This is exactly what is meant with verse 2530

The prophet will say "O my Lord, my people had fettered the Qur'an." (2530)
(A horse or camel tied head to foot was called mahjoor, and the rope used for tying, al-hijaar(Taj). The Quran today is thus fettered by custom and tradition, fixed titles and meanings of words, hearsay reports compiled centuries later, and laws and by-laws enacted by men, each group having its own fiqah and shariah, which are held more sacrosanct and given predence over the Quran)

This is not easy to understand and admit, and will take time. This has a lot to do with psychology, and knowing the history of word-meaning through the ages. There should be written more about this distortion of words, like Ayman and others are trying, if we want to understand the Quran without pre-adjusted glasses. These glasses are creating the differences of approaches. Most people will not admit this also applies to themselves. They don't understand the influence it has on their perception, and will defending their perception. I'm still loosing my glasses, as it takes a lot of time.

Peace

P.S.enquirer, also you have your glasses, so don't think you can use my comments on others, as it is also directed at you

mquran

Peace all. Just to clarify a point...I do not, by any means,think everybody in here is illogical or incorrect,nor do i feel 'superior' to them...We all have different ways of understanding and practically applying ideas and opinions...I also would say that trying to determines a persons character solely on his posts,can be a misleading and fruitless endeavour...

So what was the point of starting this now TWENTY-SEVEN PAGE thread? Let me remind you of the point as you so eloquently put it

Peace mquran. Dont get emotional my friend,i have another thread planned for the contradictions... Most of your logic is circular,and your attempted academic character assasination is shallow and laughable.
Why would your god create you with a mind,and then ask you to subvert it or not use it?

And now, you put on a hari-krishna outfit and chant peace and love and to each his own?

A lot of times what is being debated is a 'subjective' opinion/view...And im sure we are entitled to have these views,as long as they do not 'unnecessarily' harm others,and also that these 'views' lead to good,positive,rational behaviour'...

Once again, define 'good, positive, rational'.

mquran

Arnold Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language. But most people read them as fixed titles, the meaning already filled-in, pre-programmed. And by not admitting this, are stuck in their views.

Arnold, your views are really very profound. Al-quraan, I believe, has a constant meaning for each of its concept. The trick is go through al-quraan in the process of tasreef and acquire the meaning in your mind and to let go of preconcieved notions. I notice this happening to me (albeit in a very limited way) after learning Arabic.

unknownuser

Peace arnoldyasin. Yes,we all have shortcomings in our knowledge and/or aspects of the 'pre-conceived' thinking,or 'glasses' you talk of...
Note i have commended certain interpretations by idol-free,tay,yourself and many,many others who do not agree with me on many other issues...I have stated that my opinions are just that...my opinions...My job is to verify and learn from life,and others can also do that...
I have learnt (especially after this thread!!!) that trying to ascertain a persons 'total' or 'general character' from his posts alone is a potentially 'flawed' exercise...
I also consider ones practical morality and behaviour to be a better indication of a 'reasonable' system of beliefs,than just how a person talks or writes...( note;thats not a criticism of anybody personally,just my observation and experience.)
peace all. ps;mquran,why i responded to you,and one of the reasons i created this thread was that i felt,in my opinion,that some interpretations of the quran were/are inconsistent,contradictory and harmful...Take it easy and peace to you...I think you have just misunderstood me...I do see some good logic and rational in some of your interpretations and comments...but i also see some negative aspects too...
I reserve the right to dialogue when i feel that the dialogue will be productive and/or peaceful...pps;I have also apologised on about three seperate occasions if i was unnecessarily harsh or insensitive...and i have given my reasons for not replying to all responses in some of my previous posts...