Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?

unknownuser

Peace all. Just to clarify a point...I do not, by any means,think everybody in here is illogical or incorrect,nor do i feel 'superior' to them...We all have different ways of understanding and practically applying ideas and opinions...I also would say that trying to determines a persons character solely on his posts,can be a misleading and fruitless endeavour...
A lot of times what is being debated is a 'subjective' opinion/view...And im sure we are entitled to have these views,as long as they do not 'unnecessarily' harm others,and also that these 'views' lead to good,positive,rational behaviour'...
Peace all.

mquran

Peace bmbmm and darbari and all. Bmbmm;Thanks for your understanding bmbmm. Im glad you noticed i did put a question mark in my first post on this threads title,and i also explained many,many times that its the way the text is literally interpreted sometimes,which makes the text contradict...Maybe i am not explaining myself clearly enought to others,or they are misunderstanding me....I agree,in some circumstances if a christian or jew asked these questions they would have received more politenesss and constructive replies...

This is a nice way to get out of it. While you have asserted this is 'literal/metaphorical' artifact in your discouse, you have upheld none of it. Your first assertion was 4/78-79. Pray tell, how does changing the literal/metaphorical dimension of those verses eliminate its 'contradiction' ?

Its unusual how scientists can disagree on fundamental theories,yet do not resort to too much 'sensitivity',name calling,and branding if they are cornered or dont know a certain answer,but will probably agree to disagree or do more research on the issue...Can you imagine if all scientists were sensitive and/or narrow minded?...We might not even have invented penicillin,x-rays,the steam engine,or stitl think the earth was flat etc...

A true scientist also doesn't go 'do you really believe so and so' (as you did in your first post) then when the cards are on the table, go silent as a post. I hope you don't fancy yourself a 'scientist' as that would really be an insult to the word.

I notice that some 'quran only' people are allowed to 'between themselves' differ on many issues of interpretation to a huge degree...eg some believe in physical salat,physical hajjj,while others do not,some believe angels are emotions and some believe they are something else,some believe in literal interpretations,some metaphorical....

Eh ? Would a scientist whine 'but you people disagree bla bla bla' like a two year old or would he acknowledge the differences and use the Quran as a measure to determine the right view? In your TWENTY-FIVE YEARS of reading, you're telling me what stopped you was DIFFERENCES in opinion? Rubbish.

Yet when i say i believe in some of the 'universal' knowledge that the quran points out for us to discover and verify...,but disagree on the perceived origin of the quran and its scope,then i get crititcism from many angles...

Criticism, yes. Is anyone coming to lynch you? No. The idea of criticism is draw out the rational fallacies of a certain view. This is why you dare not answer the questions posed. It's not due to the so-called rudeness but due to the fact that you do not want your bubble to burst. We could send a procession led by the queen and give you the questions engraved in gold and you still wouldn't answer.

Darbari; I feel we are getting bogged down again,i have clarified my position now several times ..i am not trying to convert you to my exact way of thinking,and you have not converted me to your exact way of thinking,you can verify for yourself and i can verify for myself,i think thats fair...if you want to believe certain things about the quran then thats fine to me,as long as you live your life with good intentions and practically follow good morality...

This should henceforth be instituted in the Oxford Dictionary under the entry 'humbled'. A far cry from this guy here
Peace mquran. Do you think all of the quran is literally relevent to todays society? Do you take the quran as superior to what you can see/verify with your own mind/eyes? Where is bird flu,aids,nuclear weapons,global warming,chemistry,medical breakthroughs,cancer,chemical warfare,social statistics,social research,psychological research,esp,detailed dream analysis,quantum physics,gulf wars,tsunamis,pregnancy tests,pregnancy scans, etc.. directly in the quran?
who was so confident in his modernist ideology.

To be honest i still personally feel that not many have actually responded as to why/how some of these inconsistencies can be ironed out,or are not inconsistencies...I actually had to write a reply to my own question to explain how these inconsistencies could be 'explained away'...(

Point out these and explain why. Merely ranting about them shows intellectual dishonesty and/or poverty.

Peace all. ps;i hope in future we can address this topic in a more 'constructive' way

When people of decency and integrity , it can happen. Otherwise, don't count on it.

arnoldyasin

The difference in understandings has not to do with the text itself. It has to do with the psychology of words. Our subconciousness is programmed from birth, and words and meanings are thaught to us. So most people on this site, don't differ because of different truths, but differ because they don't understand, what is true and not true from their filled-in subconciousness. Some will not even admit, that can be the case. So it is not a matter of reason, but of psychology. How fixed are people's concepts, and why are they holding on to it.

Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language. But most people read them as fixed titles, the meaning already filled-in, pre-programmed. And by not admitting this, are stuck in their views.

I will give an example, the Greek word, apocolypse, means revelation. All people on this site and in the monotheistic world, understand this word as meaning the end of times, which is nonsense. The word got its own meaning, a new fixed meaning, and by thus becoming a 'title'. And the meaning was filled-in through a scripture, that is called apocolypse. Isn't this interresting? A simple Greek word, changed from revealing/revelation, into meaning the end of the world, with all the myths that surrounds these events. So the original meaning is ignored, and forgotten, and the new given meaning is held sancronant. All because of one book, with a certain story about the end of times, carries this title. So it is not always, the true meaning from the language, that makes a word, most of the time, it is a historical moment, where people addapted the word, giving it a new meaning, by 'accident'. And people after that follow this meaning blindly. And get confused when the real meaning is shown to them. Like also with the word khalifa, which new meaning was concocted 200 years after the prophet. Whereby several Abbasin princes where fighting over the power, and demanded some extra support. The scholars, then made this title, out of the Quran, into a political one. And calling the first leaders, by the same title, making it by thus, 'historicaly correct', covering their traces. And by so, giving the person who carried the title now, special status, by the created link.

This is exactly what happened to a lot of words as jinn, meaning spirits, while in reality, it refers to things not seen/rarely seen, and its meaning in the Quran is different with every verse, as it is based on the contexts. Same even with sjeitan, iblis, meaning just opponent, rebel. Not devil, or evil thing. Salaat meaning contact, runner-up. All these words original meanings are ignored, and by thus loosing its real meaning, blocking us from seeing the real message. This is with a lot of words, that have created meanings, like apocolypse, with a whole background and image behind them. Totaly fixed and filled in, not by the Quran, but by our backgrounds. Even the word quran, meaning just reading, became a fixed title. This is exactly what is meant with verse 2530

The prophet will say "O my Lord, my people had fettered the Qur'an." (2530)
(A horse or camel tied head to foot was called mahjoor, and the rope used for tying, al-hijaar(Taj). The Quran today is thus fettered by custom and tradition, fixed titles and meanings of words, hearsay reports compiled centuries later, and laws and by-laws enacted by men, each group having its own fiqah and shariah, which are held more sacrosanct and given predence over the Quran)

This is not easy to understand and admit, and will take time. This has a lot to do with psychology, and knowing the history of word-meaning through the ages. There should be written more about this distortion of words, like Ayman and others are trying, if we want to understand the Quran without pre-adjusted glasses. These glasses are creating the differences of approaches. Most people will not admit this also applies to themselves. They don't understand the influence it has on their perception, and will defending their perception. I'm still loosing my glasses, as it takes a lot of time.

Peace

P.S.enquirer, also you have your glasses, so don't think you can use my comments on others, as it is also directed at you

mquran

Peace all. Just to clarify a point...I do not, by any means,think everybody in here is illogical or incorrect,nor do i feel 'superior' to them...We all have different ways of understanding and practically applying ideas and opinions...I also would say that trying to determines a persons character solely on his posts,can be a misleading and fruitless endeavour...

So what was the point of starting this now TWENTY-SEVEN PAGE thread? Let me remind you of the point as you so eloquently put it

Peace mquran. Dont get emotional my friend,i have another thread planned for the contradictions... Most of your logic is circular,and your attempted academic character assasination is shallow and laughable.
Why would your god create you with a mind,and then ask you to subvert it or not use it?

And now, you put on a hari-krishna outfit and chant peace and love and to each his own?

A lot of times what is being debated is a 'subjective' opinion/view...And im sure we are entitled to have these views,as long as they do not 'unnecessarily' harm others,and also that these 'views' lead to good,positive,rational behaviour'...

Once again, define 'good, positive, rational'.

mquran

Arnold Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language. But most people read them as fixed titles, the meaning already filled-in, pre-programmed. And by not admitting this, are stuck in their views.

Arnold, your views are really very profound. Al-quraan, I believe, has a constant meaning for each of its concept. The trick is go through al-quraan in the process of tasreef and acquire the meaning in your mind and to let go of preconcieved notions. I notice this happening to me (albeit in a very limited way) after learning Arabic.

unknownuser

Peace arnoldyasin. Yes,we all have shortcomings in our knowledge and/or aspects of the 'pre-conceived' thinking,or 'glasses' you talk of...
Note i have commended certain interpretations by idol-free,tay,yourself and many,many others who do not agree with me on many other issues...I have stated that my opinions are just that...my opinions...My job is to verify and learn from life,and others can also do that...
I have learnt (especially after this thread!!!) that trying to ascertain a persons 'total' or 'general character' from his posts alone is a potentially 'flawed' exercise...
I also consider ones practical morality and behaviour to be a better indication of a 'reasonable' system of beliefs,than just how a person talks or writes...( note;thats not a criticism of anybody personally,just my observation and experience.)
peace all. ps;mquran,why i responded to you,and one of the reasons i created this thread was that i felt,in my opinion,that some interpretations of the quran were/are inconsistent,contradictory and harmful...Take it easy and peace to you...I think you have just misunderstood me...I do see some good logic and rational in some of your interpretations and comments...but i also see some negative aspects too...
I reserve the right to dialogue when i feel that the dialogue will be productive and/or peaceful...pps;I have also apologised on about three seperate occasions if i was unnecessarily harsh or insensitive...and i have given my reasons for not replying to all responses in some of my previous posts...

mquran

Enquirer I reserve the right to dialogue when i feel that the dialogue will be productive and/or peaceful...

And self-serving, lets never forget that

ps;mquran,why i responded to you,and one of the reasons i created this thread was that i felt,in my opinion,that some interpretations of the quran were/are inconsistent,contradictory and harmful...Take it easy and peace to you...I think you have just misunderstood me...I do see some good logic and rational in some of your interpretations and comments...but i also see some negative aspects

I am taking it easy, don't worry. The reason i'm repeating these questions now is to show people that at the end of the day, the 'rationalist' has no leg to stand on. What is 'harmful', I keep asking you? You cannot answer because 'harmful' is ultimately 'enquirer's opinion of harmful'. By the way, you said al-quraan was harmful at the beginning, not its interpretation. Why should I , as an advocate of al-quraan impose a false interpretive method onto al-quraan to please you, a guy who doesn't even know what harmful means?

If you see some 'negative aspects', bring them forward. Is it 'decent' and 'good' of you to keep them to yourself?

unknownuser

Peace all. My opinions and answers which are being asked for,are in my previous posts and in other threads....
'Harm' has a 'subjective' and 'objective' element to it,in my view...
The quran is,in itself,probably neutral...its how you interpret and apply it,that makes the harm or the benefit...
I dont expect,or want people to change their views to please me...but to verify if their views are practically moral and rational upon reflection,if they so wish...(including myself,with my own views.) I dont view that i have to 'out-debate' or 'win' debates,as i view this as potentially 'flawed',subjective,and not always conducive to getting an actual 'truth', or a 'correct view' of the overall situation...
peace all.

mquran

Peace all. My opinions and answers which are being asked for,are in my previous posts and in other threads....
'Harm' has a 'subjective' and 'objective' element to it,in my view...

Ah, how very profound. Can you tell me of the 'objective element' please since by definition, thats the element we share?

The quran is,in itself,probably neutral...its how you interpret and apply it,that makes the harm or the benefit...

Ah, your profundity amazes me yet again. Can you please show me how al-quraan is neutral? When it says 'be good to your parents', does it actually mean 'be neutral to your parents' or am I totally missing your point?

I dont expect,or want people to change their views to please me...

Good, then you won't be disappointed.

but to verify if their views are practically moral and rational upon reflection,if they so wish...(including myself,with my own views.)

Difficult to do that unless one is forthright enough to define 'moral' and 'rational', something you're clearly not up to.

I dont view that i have to 'out-debate' or 'win' debates,as i view this as potentially 'flawed',subjective,and not always conducive to getting an actual 'truth', or a 'correct view' of the overall situation...

Spoken like a true Lote-Tree. Did you experience a conversion of sorts since last week when you were quite adamant in showing what an 'idol' the Quran was, how outdated, totally outmoded by science etc? Did those Krishna Consciousness boys on Oxford Street get to you or something?

How do you verify a 'truth' ?

unknownuser

Peace mquran. I will leave you to read my previous posts (if you wish.) as these have most of my thoughts and opinions in them...
As ive stated before,if i feel there is benefit/peace in discussing in detail,i will do so..............no compulsion in the deen...
Peace all.

mquran

Peace mquran. I will leave you to read my previous posts (if you wish.) as these have most of my thoughts and opinions in them...

Enquirer, i've been through most of your rants and find them as I told you before, empty.

As ive stated before,if i feel there is benefit/peace in discussing in detail,i will do so..............no compulsion in the deen...

Of course no compulsion. This is about respect rather. It was you who came with the mother of all rhetoric trying to show us how above religion you are. Well if you can't even define your own terms, you can't really know what you're talking about, can you? I think this will be last my post to you. You've really destroyed my perception of the non-book theist type. They usually have so much to contribute due to their deep thought. Not you though, your 25 years or 50 or whatever didn't amount to much, if anything..peace out.

unknownuser

Peace mquran. Dont let me alter your perception of the non-book theist types...
Im sure there are others that will debate and discuss with you in a positive,beneficial way...I just feel our dialogues didnt do a lot of good,because of contrasting styles....I dont claim to represent,and may not be representative of all, or even many of the theist,non-book types you mentioned....i still feel you have not understood my position,and i still feel you have some good ideas and opinions on quran...I just feel our different ways of discussing are currently 'incompatible'....
Peace to you as well. No hard feelings from me brother...

Fahad1

Darbari; I feel we are getting bogged down again,i have clarified my position now several times ..i am not trying to convert you to my exact way of thinking,and you have not converted me to your exact way of thinking,you can verify for yourself and i can verify for myself,i think thats fair...if you want to believe certain things about the quran then thats fine to me,as long as you live your life with good intentions and practically follow good morality...In my posts i feel i have answered some of your questions,...

if u can please copy/paste your answers here , cuz i cant find them . can u also tell us what were the questions which you answered ?

if you feel you want to refute some of my statements then do so...

i m itching to refute your statements , just waiting for u to reply to my first refutation .

bmbmm

Bmbmm I think the title "Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?" made some people felt like there ball being crushed . I am glad eq put a Question Mark (?) after it. Take it easy folks, its just a question to ponder. I believe if a Christian or a Jew as question like this would not have good so much rude replies.

Take it easy? How much easier do you want it? So far, everything your friend has deigned to mention has been answered and his response asked for. However, he doesn't see it befitting his station as an enlightened seeker (sic) to respond to us deluded plebs. It's not a question of ease but of decency that your friend has none.

I don't want to talk on behalf of my friend. However, since you suggested he do not have decency. Could you kindly give me an example? Also, I think he sometimes do indeed get pissed off by the intolerence and rude outcome of discussing the nature of the Quran. We shouldn't have this Salafi/Sunni etc. etc. rude reflection upon contemplating on the true nature of the Quran, if we do not disagree -\

Peace

unknownuser

Hello all,

AhmedBaghat?s fetish and frustrated lengthy rebuttals were perplexed and steamed out in both the cases I presented above, venturing out in circles to distinguish time periods and events in which those verses speak of, with a touch of tasty fruits and rotten blah blahs, and guilty of core concerns unresolved. I hope this time he won?t sweat as much for it?ll make it simpler in his case, for time, place and event mustn?t be a concern because

The Quran challenges mankind to bring a (one) surah like it (223 and 103

Khalifa
If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

Yusuf Ali
And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides God, if your (doubts) are true.

Pickthal
And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave, then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

"Progressive Muslims"
And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

Khalifa
If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

Yusuf Ali
Or do they say, "He forged it"? say "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides God, if it be ye speak the truth!"

Pickthal
Or say they He hath invented it ? Say Then bring a surah like unto it, and call on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.

"Progressive Muslims"
Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"

Not satisfied, the Quran further challenges to bring yet another 10 surahs instead of one in precisely the same manner as in 1038

Khalifa
If they say, "He fabricated," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

Yusuf Ali
Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "Bring ye then ten suras forged, like unto it, and call whomsoever ye can, other than God!- If ye speak the truth!

Pickthal
Or they say He hath invented it. Say Then bring ten surahs, the like thereof, invented, and call on everyone ye can beside Allah, if ye are truthful!

"Progressive Muslims"
Or do they say "He invented it!" Say "Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call on whom you can besides God if you are truthful."

If the challenge is not met, then we must acquiesce to the following without being punished
If they fail to meet your challenge, then know that this is revealed with GOD's knowledge, and that there is no god except He. Will you then submit?

But then, lo and behold, if the challenge is made, they are sent to hell; so much for the challenge in the first place
As for those who strive to challenge our revelations, they incur Hell.

And here is the challenge met for not one but all ten in Arabic (with English translation on some)
http//suralikeit.com/

Now, Mr. Ahmed, you are at your liberty to bring any or all translations that exists today including the literal one (whatever that means), heck bring your own invented one and see if anyone can patch-up the above 3 verses for me in a consistent, coherent and non-contradicting fashion.

If quran is GOD?s words as allegedly claimed, then please clarify the following concerns

Was the challenge of one surah not enough for GOD Al-mighty?
Doesn?t the challenge to bring 10 surahs or even one for that matter, reveal weakness in GOD?s words by itself in which it speaks?
Why the challenge in the first place? If GOD guides people whomsoever HE wills, then the question of challenge, whether met or not, shouldn?t arise? It seems a forced issue.
If challenge is not met, then one should believe in it without incurring hell, but when one tries to challenge, one goes straight to hell. Isn?t this called, ?double standards??
What is the reward for meeting the challenge and why?
Why the contradiction and inconsistency?
Once again, 8015 comes into play, as elaborated earlier.

NOTE ?people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin.?

mquran

Hi there Danish, Good to see you again. Is this going to be your style from now on, Danish, hit and run? Is this what your 'essence of nature' (sic) pals've been teaching you? That the nature of man is to run?
You haven't addressed my first set of questions to you yet. I'm going to answer alongside AB, if you don't mind.

Danish If the challenge is not met, then we must acquiesce to the following without being punished
If they fail to meet your challenge, then know that this is revealed with GOD's knowledge, and that there is no god except He. Will you then submit?

Is this 'scientific' Danish, pasting Quranic verses without checking its contents? Funny that..when it comes to Quranic discussion, you're about as scientific as a Salem witch.

Wainlam YASTAJIBU LAKUM means if they fail to respond to you, 'meeting your challenge' is nowhere in the ayat )

So that's one of your pathetic arguments cut down.

But then, lo and behold, if the challenge is made, they are sent to hell; so much for the challenge in the first place
As for those who strive to challenge our revelations, they incur Hell.

22/51 is talking about another event altogether, the event of sa'aa or striving against God's revelation. Would you care to see context, or does 'science' prevent you from being objective? I should think it should tell you to be objective. Read 22/50, which tells you to believe and be righteous, THAT'S the context of the ayat.

Was the challenge of one surah not enough for GOD Al-mighty?

The criteria of 'enough' depends on the individual. Why should anyone listen to YOUR criteria of sufficiency? If Al-quraan is to be made to show to contradict itself, it must first declare that issues only one challenge, which of course it never did. Scraping a little, are we?

Doesn?t the challenge to bring 10 surahs or even one for that matter, reveal weakness in GOD?s words by itself in which it speaks?

In what way would it do so? The challenge to produce suwaar allows the individual to see for himself the greatness of al-quraan compared to any other coherent discourse. How would it reveal weakness?

Why the challenge in the first place? If GOD guides people whomsoever HE wills, then the question of challenge, whether met or not, shouldn?t arise? It seems a forced issue.

Once again, this is your opinion and if I answer, it would be my opinion. Al-quraan says 'if they are in doubt' and if they say 'he created it himself', that's all the reason it needs. I say again WHO CARES about your opinion? Bring a contradiction or do you not know what that is?

If challenge is not met, then one should believe in it without incurring hell, but when one tries to challenge, one goes straight to hell. Isn?t this called, ?double standards??

False. Proven above. You percieved it wrongly thanks to your poor method. You're clearly a bigot because you reserve great care for 'science' but are shoddy in your study of al-quraan. No wonder you reject it.

What is the reward for meeting the challenge and why?

Al-quraan says you'll never meet the challenge. And judging by what you and Enquirer have thus far produced, i can see how this is true.

Why the contradiction and inconsistency?

there is none. Only some bigots with poor knowledge and even poorer methodologies.

Danish, I hope you don't run this time and come up with your own coherent discourse. Hint look up Popper and Kuhn, it might help.

NOTE ?people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin.?

Ahmed Baghat has NEVER lied about al-quraan or its interpretation.

unknownuser

Hey there mquran,

Sounds like you love to mercilessly bicker for crying out loud, rather than presenting a coherent and meaningful refutation or even a decent discussion, which is your's and Ahmed's norm. Talk about 'hit and run'? -[ You bet, scares the heck out of me from "people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin". ;D

unknownuser

Ahmed Baghat has NEVER lied about al-quraan or its interpretation.

Now that's quite a zesty feast. Perhaps you overlooked the "illogical" aspect of "GOD's words" which he seems to confess and check out http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5264.30 and abundance of other irrelevant notions. Even you, on many occasions have argued with him on several fronts.

Mr. Mquran, you have proven yourself a LIAR on behalf of Ahmed, a FACT I'm afraid cannot be neglected.

mquran

Sounds like you love to mercilessly bicker for crying out loud, rather than presenting a coherent and meaningful refutation or even a decent discussion, which is your's and Ahmed's norm. Talk about 'hit and run'? You bet, scares the heck out of me from "people who tell OUTRIGHT LIES about al-quraan yet claim to believe in Al-quraan's divine origin".

What 'merciless bicker'? Why don't you address my points? Instead of bluffing your way through this discussion? If you want to bluff, put on a sunni costume and teach at a madressa. You can make up anything you like there as long as it deifies Muhammad.

Here are my points for you again, which of course you will never dare to step up to

11/14 has NO phrase 'fail to meet the challenge'. That came from the Danish's Official Storage of Lies Produced to Comfort Himself in His Rejection.
22/51 is from ANOTHER context, nothing to do with sura challenges.

And as for your points

Point 1 is your opinion. Nothing concrete at all.

Point 2 is for clarification. Im asking you HOW does it show weakness?

Point 3 is your opinion yet again (a substitute for hard facts, obviously).

Point 4 has been proven false due to your fallacious interpretations, thanks to your total lack of scholarship on the issue.

Point 5 I have answered. There's no possibility of meeting the challenge, according to Al-quraan.

Point 6 is false once again due to your false interpretation.

If you're genuine, why don't you disprove my corrections of your facts? Why just stand on the soapbox with nothing but soap?

mquran

Now that's quite a zesty feast. Perhaps you overlooked the "illogical" aspect of "GOD's words" which he seems to confess and check out http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5264.30 and abundance of other irrelevant notions. Even you, on many occasions have argued with him on several fronts.

Mr. Mquran, you have proven yourself a LIAR on behalf of Ahmed, a FACT I'm afraid cannot be neglected.

Does science teach you that because someone follows something, it makes him a liar ? We'll have to resurrect Aristotle to teach you some logic, pal. I will clarify for people who have comprehension problems

I have disagreed with AB, sure but he's always been forthright, even when the facts expose the weakness of his arguments. He's therefore better than the cowards who lurk in this form who will never step up to discuss in a sincere manner.