FIXED Meanings of Words

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Thanx Adley for the perfect example, and yes phoenix, this is exactly what i'm trying to say here. Most fixed meanings of words used in the Quran, come from the traditions. So we have to start loosing those if we want the real vision of the Quran. Otherwise we too fall under 2530.

What i want to do in this thread, is to show examples from languages we use. And the psychology behind it why people defend those fixed meanings. If we have more clearity on the words used in the Reading, there will be more consensus on the interpretation of the Reading. As we now mostly differ not on the message, but on what the words mean. We must let the Reading explain itself what it means with certain words.

I will post some examples i know from psychology next time Godwilling.

Peace

siki

Dear arnoldyasin
I fully support your view, the best example i can think off is the word salat,
and how mohammadans have used it to send prayers / greeting / salwat every
time his name is taken .
there is a need to carry out through re evalution of all important
words in quran , in a way it has already been started since last few decades, what we need is an organized comprehensive study.
keep up the good work
sikandar

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Thegod, the writings that got the title revelation, refers to that it was revealed to them, not to what was revealed to them. Only after those books, the word got its new meaning. So yes, the words meaning was changed, and fixed in later times, by the people themselves. And you by thus give the perfect example of what i tried to tell here, you defended a fixed meaning, that has no place in the original greek language. A meaning that was given to the word by the people themselves, basing its meaning on the contents of the written book, and neglecting the true meaning of the word and why it was used as a title. Thanx for being such a good example The thing is, you know exactly what i mean and agree with me, so trying to 'take away' my example is futile.

And yes, siki, thanx, we have to organize, this must be taken seriously, as a lot of people are taking no effort to structure our deen.

Peace

andy

Salaam arnoldyasin,

I agree with you that the incorrect view of hadith is a big big barrier because it freezes the meaning of verses.

First, because the prophet is merely a fallible human being who does not know every thing. For example, at his time the knowledge about universe is completely different from what we know today so the prophet himself could not have given the "correct" interpretation of all verses in quran regarding the universe. Whatever the prophet taught is correct only to the best of his knowledge.

Second, because what we read in hadith compilations are not the sayings of the prophet. They are what the narrators claim to have been from the prophet.

Third, because hadith compilations have been proven to be not authentic (the labels shahih given by the scholars do not guarantee anything about their authenticity). Furthermore, due to the degree of corruption, we cannot be sure whether the "fine" ones are really from the prophet, let alone take them as DIVINE books.

Fourth, this is the most important one, because Quran is for Allah to explain and not for Bukhari to explain (7516-19)

OK bro, I cannot wait any longer to see your research )

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Thanx andy, but is not only because of hadith, it is as much about how the folklore and other languages changed the meanings. A lot of arabic meanings are corrupted by the hebrew, aramaic and persian meanings. So it is a much wider field we have to investigate. Also, even though most people here reject hadith and other history to understand the Quran, they neglect that the meaning and interpretations of words they have, are formed and come from the the sunni-arabic. And by so are still stuck in the corrupted arabic.

Like the word Nikaa, doesn't mean only marriage, but contract, pledge, mixing, combine. So we aren't allowed to marry four women, but are advised to make "contracts" with them, as to take care of them and their children, a form of social security. And i can give more examples with this word. Thus a lot of verses can have mulitple meanings, giving rules not only about marriage, but about any form of contract and combining forces. And also gives the implication that the prophet was never married to multiple women, but had social security contracts with them, to take care of them, till they re-married.

The depth of the Quran is by thus opened, and shows its endless wisdom.

I hope to form some alliances with people who want to help, take on certain words, and see the implications on understandings verses where they're used.

Here i will give an example how everything changes if we appraoch words in their original meaning, and drop the fixed meaning. This was not the purpose of this thread, so keep in mind i only give it as an example on how mulitple options open up for us, if we translate the words without the fixed meanings. REMEMBER PEOPLE, THIS IS NOT TO DISCUSS THIS TRANSLATION, THIS IS ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPPENS IF WE LOOSE THE FIXED TITLES. Any comments on the translation can be done through PM. I only give this
as an example to explain my intentions on what needed to be done. Only the method of loosing the titles can be discussed.

Verse 2432-33 approaching it from multiple angles, while never deviating from its original meaning in Arabic

First we look at Nikaa meaning marriage/combining/mixing/contract/covenant/joining

BaGhA'a (as also in 1920 Bagyyaa) meaning
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchaste

Tahasanun
HaSadNun
To be well fortified
to strengthen
to immunize
to secure
to strengthen one's position
to be secure
be protected
And TaHaSadNun
securing
safeguarding
protection
protectedness
See
Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)
Furthermore, Abu Fazl and Lane's hold similar ideas on the issue of Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify
to secure
to structure (a palace)

Malakat
coming from the word MaLaK
kingdom or realm

AyManukum
oath/pledge , literal right hand posses, referring to pledging with your right hand

Ma malakat aymanukum what is under your guardianship/oath/pledge/authority

We can translate the verse from marriage point of view

"And combine/marry/bring together off those among you who are single/solitary, and from the virtious/good/righteous among your male and female servants/subordinates/workers/believers. If they are poor/in need, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.

And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).

In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides/is the most merciful.(2432-33)

"Hayatud Dunya" has been presented to be so by Abu Fazl in his Urdu Dictionary in Urdu words as follows "Fawri Aaish", I have translated above the meaning given by Abu Fazl in Urdu to English to be "Immediate enjoyments".
God is the one who "covers them from the consequences of the plans" and "provides them", Ghafuur=
God is the one who "protects" and "provides" .Ghafuur even means "the one who protects" (Refer Gharibul Quran - Abu Fazl)(page.292). Raheem also means "the one who provides" (Refer Lughatul Quran and Gharibul Quran notes on "Rahma&quot

In the first version it is to combine the single people, so they can find a partner in love, and don't just pick out the rich. Combine the rich and poor to get a balanced society, where equality rules. And God will help them all grow then. And if they can't find a good combination yet, let them wait, and don't fall into illicit acts. And if you are a trustee/responsible over people under your care, that can mean from daughters to anyone under your authority/guardianship, then if they are ready, let them get married if they want, and help them get started. And don't force the daughters/women into situations were they feel they are being treated with unjust, things that go beyond their wishes, their permission, let them fill in their own lives. Let them decide on their own, how they want to develope. So this can apply to choice of education, husband, work, and so on. Just to please your or a family, or to uphold a tradition, or to gratify your wishes and plans you had with them, let those expectations go. Let them be individuals is what this verse tells us. Because God will protect them against the consequences of your plans.

Or if you see Nikaa in a social 'help' contract.
This is what you can see if you approach Nikaa in a social way

a) Life in a Quranic system is more social where none would be left solitary. This verse urges the Social programmers to work on providing a strong family structure for these solitaries this may be through marriage or without it. Such is because such solitaries may be a child, a lady, a woman, or even elderly citizens residing in the city.b) Quran wants various classes of the society to come forward and show their enthusiasm in helping these solitaries find their a better life.c) Quran even emphasizes that those with limited means aren't ignored in this call. This is because, there are chances that they may have something to give to some which others may not. So, let this call be generally for all, whosoever feels that he/she is well in a position to fulfill it.

2432
So get the solitaries, the solitaries of society together, combine with them/form social contracts with them, wether you/they are rich or poor, the virtious, and God will grant them from His Bounty. God is Encompassing, Knowledgable.

a) To continue, after going through the responsibilities of the contract (case to case) if one feels that he may not be able to do it, then let him refrain from proceeding with it. One shouldn't be demotivated for being in such a state; it is hope that takes one to the top, if one has the will to learn and strive in getting what he aims at in ways better and productive.
b) I believe that one is more a kind of Trustee when it comes for handling "Ma Malakat Aymanukum". Thus, giving back the trust to the right owners is quite important. So, of those who have responsibilities pertaining "Ma malakat Aymanukum" based on some stipulated contract, should spend of what they own of theirs if requested when it comes for establishing them in their desirable objectives. However, in case, the trustee is more worthy of defining the limits of spending then be it so.
c) Last but not the least, having had given such right to the trustees it doesn't mean that they poke nose and press things to a level that individuals tend to have nothing of their personal identity or say a opinion or even an objective regarding their future. One should understand that it is they who have to decide what they would have to do and that the job of the trustee is to guide them. So, if those under the shade of the trustee particularly the young women wish to strengthen their life in their own independent ways (this may or may not be about marriage) then they should be given all the more utilities to work on it. Let not the gliterring present deceive you in giving them their due rights.

2433
And let those who can't find a good combination (to give social help or to find social help), then refrain from it till God helps you, enriches you. And if those who are under your guardianship (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) seek their own rights (Kitaab) then give them once you believe that they deserve it and provide them with the means that God had provided you with.And don't compel/drive/force the people under your guardianship(contract) on you into something (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/doing them injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).
In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides (from the consequences of such plans).

So in these interpretations, that both fit perfectly, you get two most important ideas/laws/directions. One protecting women/youths/people under guardianship, and the other to drive people to help social solitary people to get back on their feet.

i will not discuss my translation on this thread as that is not the subject of this thread, i will only discuss the method used.

Peace

thegod

phoenix1 wrote
Actually, that was what i was trying to say. Words take on different meanings as time goes on, but that doesn't mean that the original meaning is lost and can't be revived. And i think that's what arnoldyasin was trying to say as well. We have to revive the original meanings of the quran because those original meanings have been lost, replaced by newer meanings.

that they may have been lost or replaced is a possibility however to just assert that they have surely been lost and replaced needs to bear the burden of providing proof! which is why i said the words have to be looked in the context of quran carefully before coming to any conclusion of whether or not they have been distorted!

phoenix1 wrote
And the reason these meanings are more 'fixed' is because we aren't talking about just a language, but a religion. People who have used the more common definitions all their lives will get confused and even offended if the newer meanings were apocalypsed (i know i havn't used it correctly ) to them. Hope you get what I am saying.

yes and i agree with what u say here! just to quote an example the word 'salat' as understood by shias/others has no backing in quran...forget the way they understand salat...even their understanding of physical postures of 'sujood' and 'ruku' has no basis in quran...nor does their folding of hands have a basis in quran!

however the word djinn it is quite clear from the quran that djinn is a
creation like humankind! now simply because shias/sunnis/others also hold this view to reject it even when the quran supports it does not reflect clear thinking...ofcourse i am not talking about any detailed explanation of the djinns that shias/sunnis/others might hold just that they are a creation like humankind! if at all it is to be rejected it is to be done only after having made complete sense of a substitute word and showing it as a better or in the least an equal substitution....also it should use the same standards v apply to other words and not be prejudiced...so i wonder if u can see that just to reject every popular view at the cost of going against the quran cannot be the goal of a person who seeks to understand things in light of the quran! -)

peace -)

thegod

arnolyasin wrote
Thegod, the writings that got the title revelation, refers to that it was revealed to them, not to what was revealed to them.

the scripture begins as being the apocalypse of jesus christ...using that word the particular work was titled 'the apocalypse'....it is as simple as that!

arnolyasin wrote
Only after those books, the word got its new meaning.

so now it also became the title of a particular book so when the greeks would be talking amongst themselves....apocalypse would carry the usual connotation of 'uncovering/disclosure'...and would also refer to a particluar scripture!

arnolyasin wrote
So yes, the words meaning was changed, and fixed in later times, by the people themselves.

now as long as these words are with the native speakers it is fine....but when another language borrows them....then it becomes a bit of a problem! the word apocalypse has perhaps been incorporated in the english language in the context of the biblical book and not the original context...so it is not distortion but the way it has been borrowed which is the cause of its popular understanding in english!

however...like i remarked...a native greek speaker may not limit the understanding of apocalypse as the biblical scripture much less the end of the world!

arnolyasin wrote
And you by thus give the perfect example of what i tried to tell here, you defended a fixed meaning, that has no place in the original greek language.

i dunno why u are persisting with the word 'fixed' i showed u that till date its original meaning is known even in english!

also...u would do well to show that apocalypse is no longer understood as 'uncover' in greek today but only as 'the book of revelation'!

nor is it about having no place in the original greek...once added to english in the biblical context this word has evolved according to the borrowed meaning! since it was borrowed into english with the connotation of disclosure of the vivid details at the end of time it later became symbolic thus an apocalyptic earthquake!

or think 'pharaoh' (originally an epithet for some egyptian kings...but is now) applied to any ancient egyptian ruler is also understood as 'tyrant' because of the evil which pharaoh symbolises in various religious scriptures!

arnolyasin wrote
A meaning that was given to the word by the people themselves, basing its meaning on the contents of the written book, and neglecting the true meaning of the word and why it was used as a title.

u are talking about the understanding of a greek word in english language...if u have proof that in greek apocalypse is no longer
understood as 'uncover' but only as 'the destruction of the world' then u have a point! -)

or had the english word 'uncover' lost its meaning and taken on the meaning 'end of the world' then u would have a reasonable argument! -)

arnolyasin wrote
Thanx for being such a good example

netime! -) i am only too glad to be of help! ;D

arnolyasin wrote
The thing is, you know exactly what i mean and agree with me, so trying to 'take away' my example is futile.

yes...i know exactly what u mean which is why i pointed out that 'apocalypse' is a wrong example to demonstrate what u mean! u were talking about how some words have their own meanings in ancient arabic but are wrongly understood in arabic today

arnolyasin wrote
Like words as jinn, mailik-ah, sjeitan, masjid, salaat, and a lot more, all have their own meanings in the ancient arabic language.

....however the example u gave was of the usage of a greek word in english language and whether u like to admit this or not it has little or no relation to the point u were making! -)

peace -)

thegod

....however the example u gave was of the usage of a greek word in english language and whether u like to admit this or
not it has no relation to the point u were making! -)

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Yes, thank you thegod, you've shown i have used a wrong example. For i don't know how the word apocalypse is used in modern Greek. So if anyone knows any better examples, please share them. In the article i posted above, with the use of Nikaa, i've proven my point i believe. So let's keep the examples coming. Soon i'll post my jinn-article, when it is checked by others. I'll also post something about malik-ah later Godwilling. If anyone can contribute, please do. This is important.

thegod

arnoldyasin wrote
Yes, thank you thegod,

netime -)

arnoldyasin wrote
you've shown i have used a wrong example. For i don't know how the word apocalypse is used in modern Greek. So if anyone knows any better examples, please share them. In the article i posted above, with the use of Nikaa, i've proven my point i believe. So let's keep the examples coming. Soon i'll post my jinn-article, when it is checked by others. I'll also post something about malik-ah later Godwilling. If anyone can contribute, please do. This is important.

i was thinking about packin my bags and leavin for a while...however a djinn article is definitely very interestin...so i ll perhaps tarry a while for this 1 article just in case i feel v have different views...and maybe later i will check out jesus' articles!

coming to ur 'nikah' stuff...some verses have long failed to make much sense to me and some 'nikah' verses are definitely among them...so i hope i make better sense of these verses now....(and while pursuin this word i hope i have found some stuff which could help me on a few other issues as well)...though i can safely say i am a long way off from makin any real sense regardin 'nikah' itself...much less comin to a conclusion...so keep the good work up...u have done a wonderful job here! -)