Is "al-masjid al-haram" a physical building ?
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ur 'mingle with one another' is really not that sound...it would mean u would be mingling with vessels! again it is also based on ur asusmption that hajj is an annual fair for socialising the structure of which u have not described despite my having previously asked u this....so u are basing 1 assummption on another!-)
as for how u previously understood circumambulate (spinning 7 times around something) is from ur own posts so there is no way u can deny that! -)
Mingle also means coming together. So yes the vessels are brought together with them as clear from 7615. You are simply evading the clear fact that there is no such thing as "circumnavigate" or "circumbilate" in the great reading. Once again you endlessly argue but fail to bring any evidence from the great reading that "tawaf" means what you conjecture.
criticising without providing a better understanding is calling others wrong by putting forth a theory based on assumptions...with an initial assumption being used as proof to reinforce a following assumption! i had clearly pointed out the main reasons for my remarks but over time u kept digressing from the issue by taking up practises at the bayt and even delving into pagan rituals which for that matter u have not told how u derived!
i had based my initial assessment on the fact that both masjidalharam and baytalharam have been stated as having been made for all humanity and yet both of them have definitely been dissociated with who associate...try to focus on this as this does not involve ur understanding or my understanding...when v resolve this i would be only too glad to help our understanding in any way i can! -)
v saw from the verse 2225 that masjidalharam has been made for all of the humankind...a similar thing has been stated for baytalharam in verse 2227...since u opine that baytalharam is for all humankind based on 2227..it clearly follows that masjidalharam was also for all of humankind based on 2225! fine so far? now ur claim is that in 928 who associate were disallowed from masjidalharam after previously being allowed...then explain to me why was it that till the revelation of this verse they were previously allowed but now they were to be disallowed henceforth!
You seem to love arguing for the sake of arguing. This has resulted in your obvious inability to read. Here is what I said in my first reply to you where I answered the issue that you raised about both masjidalharam and baytalharam stated as having been made for all humanity
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".
So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.
again...397 says that the hajj to allah is upon humankind who(so) is able to seek means....then explain how those who do not believe in god will listen to the message of god! lets suppose u do not believe in the god whose messenger abraham came as...and believe in some other 'god' which abraham has renounced...and abraham says to u...'listen there is this building or this fair unto which god has ordained upon u a visit'...would u pay heed to him when u do not see him as a messenger of god?
The message of The God are in His signs. The signs are both in the great reading and all around us. So those who don't believe in The God listen and see those signs everyday. You don't have to believe in anything to listen to The God's signs. It is up to The God to guide people or not after they listen.
As for Abraham, he was ordered to invite people WITH the "hajj" not TO the "hajj". The "hajj" is simply a tool to invite people. Everyone will come to the market that is setup in a place where there are no partners with The God because as stated in the great reading, the FIRST reason is to WITNESS BENEFITS.
Again, try to read properly instead of arguing for the sake of arguing. This is why a more productive activity for you is to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean and maybe you will come to the same conclusion as me and save us both some time. If you don't come to the same conclusion then maybe you will come to a better conclusion and add value instead of endlessly arguing about the same point due to your inability to read my first response.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Alpha,
Dr Shariati passed away some 25 years ago. I find it a great read for those who want to grasp the idea behind the original intention of HAJJ.
Here is a statement from Dr. Shariati that summerises all that is wrong with his view
"the Kaaba is an empty cube - nothing else"
Here are the simple indisputable facts from the great reading that contradict the above statement and thus completely demolish Dr. Shariati's essay
- "ka'ba" is itself the restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram" (597).
- The restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram"/"ka'ba" is a place where people can assemble in safety (2125) INSIDE IT (397), thus when they ENTER IT, they are secure.
- There are signs of the "maqam"/status/position of Ibrahim INSIDE the restriction house/"al-bayt al-7aram", i.e. INSIDE the "kaaba"(397).
Peace,
Ayman
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ayman wrote
Mingle also means coming together. So yes the vessels are brought together with them as clear from 7615.is not to bring together 'jama'? if u want to simply stick to ur understanding and argue without making sense just to evade the truth its ur lookout..but if u are seriously interested keep readin....cups and humans do not 'come together'...leave alone 'mingle'...give anybody a cup in his hand and tell him is being mingled with the cup and u will know for urself...hopefully...also i sincerely suggest u look up the word 'mingle' before u post a reply!
ayman wrote
You are simply evading the clear fact that there is no such thing as "circumnavigate" or "circumbilate" in the great reading. Once again you endlessly argue but fail to bring any evidence from the great reading that "tawaf" means what you conjecture.lets get things straight...i used the word circumambulate for a specific verse...2226...however wont as u are to make false claims u have gone ahead and lied that i understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate...i do not see any reasons why anybody would want to stoop to such mediocre levels and lose credibility!
coming back to 'tawaf'...i understood that as 'going about'! when applied to 2226 it becomes going about the bayt which can be replaced by circumambulate the bayt...so the word was for a particular verse and not a generalisation of 'tawaf'...in a general sense i would have said 'tawaf' is 'going about'....i hope u have the ability to appreciate the wide gap between what u thought to be and what actually is! -)
ayman wrote
You seem to love arguing for the sake of arguing.This has resulted in your obvious inability to read.no need for slandering...however if thats the best u can do...cool! -)
ayman wrote
Here is what I said in my first reply to you where I answered the issue that you raised about both masjidalharam and baytalharam stated as having been made for all humanityQuote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.
the problem perhaps is with either ur reading or ur comprehension or both....i think i should go at a pace at which u can understand..so i will try again...using emphasis now and then to make u understand better!
let me recall ur initial reply..which was posted before what u pasted above claiming to be ur initial response
ayman wrote
928. O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" as per 2225.
as u can see u had stated that previously those who associate were allowed to come near masjidalharam..now take the meaning of yaqrubu which u proposed..as having influence..so it clearly follows that according to u previously those who associate were allowed to influence masjidalharam...so my question was why is it that those who associate had previously been allowed being near or influential to masjidalharam and later disallowed...i have repeated this question twice now and i hope the query is clear to u now!
ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.
so that is not all...as i tried to explain above! coming back to muqaraabun as in 7114...are u saying the magicians becoming muqarrabun to pharaoh would have meant that they would be able to influence his decisions?...that he would consult them before making or executing his decisions...or they would make him implement their suggestions?....or they would be of those who would set the laws alongside pharaoh...what do u imply by having influence on the political decision makers?
ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
The message of The God are in His signs. The signs are both in the great reading and all around us. So those who don't believe in The God listen and see those signs everyday. You don't have to believe in anything to listen to The God's signs. It is up to The God to guide people or not after they listen.everybody sees these signs which u speak of...so u have essentially stated nothing! the sun...the moon...these are from the ayats of god and u do not need to involve a hajj to listen or witness these signs...do u?...so when god talks 'ayatin bayyinatin' in the bayt it cannot be these signs as these...as u urself agree...are witnessed every second by everybody...and there is no need for an annual fair to listen to these signs!
ayman wrote
As for Abraham, he was ordered to invite people WITH the "hajj" not TO the "hajj". The "hajj" is simply a tool to invite people. Everyone will come to the market that is setup in a place where there are no partners with The God because as stated in the great reading, the FIRST reason is to WITNESS BENEFITS.atleast use technically sound lies if u want to distort the word of god...'adhinat' is not invite....perhaps 'inform/bring to attention'...perhaps 'put in the ear of'...so it says 'and put in the ears of the humankind/inform the humankind/bring to attention the humankind with/by the hajj'...i hope u will make a note of this as u have a habit of distorting quran and claiming the contrary!
also...this renders the rest of what u wrote as irrelevant as it was based on something which has been shown as being distortion of quran! -)
ayman wrote
Again, try to read properly instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.i think v have seen so far who has a habit of slandering others and even distorting the words of quran! -)
ayman wrote
This is why a more productive activity for you is to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean and maybe you will come to the same conclusion as me and save us both some time. If you don't come to the same conclusion then maybe you will come to a better conclusion and add value instead of endlessly arguing about the same point due to your inability to read my first response.figure out that which has been presented to u thus far and then v will discuss productivity! and yes...read a little better...comprehend a bit better...both the quran and what i write...and stay away from slandering and distorting...both my words and the words of god!-)
peace -)
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is not to bring together 'jama'? if u want to simply stick to ur understanding and argue without making sense just to evade the truth its ur lookout..but if u are seriously interested keep readin....cups and humans do not 'come together'...leave alone 'mingle'...give anybody a cup in his hand and tell him is being mingled with the cup and u will know for urself...hopefully...
You are again demonstrating your inability to read. In 7615, "yutaf" is in the passive. This means that it is not the cups coming together by themselves but are brought.
also i sincerely suggest u look up the word 'mingle' before u post a reply!
Instead of lazily criticizing and giving advice without doing it yourself, check a Thesaurus and you will see that "come together" is a synonym of "mingle".
Given your attitude, I am not going to waste my time on educating you on what a Thesaurus is or how to use it.
lets get things straight...i used the word circumambulate for a specific verse...2226...however wont as u are to make false claims u have gone ahead and lied that i understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate...i do not see any reasons why anybody would want to stoop to such mediocre levels and lose credibility!
coming back to 'tawaf'...i understood that as 'going about'! when applied to 2226 it becomes going about the bayt which can be replaced by circumambulate the bayt...so the word was for a particular verse and not a generalisation of 'tawaf'...in a general sense i would have said 'tawaf' is 'going about'....i hope u have the ability to appreciate the wide gap between what u thought to be and what actually is! -)
This is funny "I lied when I said that you understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate" but then in the next paragraph you say that you indeed understand it as circumambulate when applied to 2226.
You are obviously still confused. You understood it as circumambulate and then when YOU WERE FORCED to admit based on indisputable evidence from 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615 that it cannot mean circumambulate, you came up with "going about". Now it is back to square one again and your reverted back to circumambulate. This is fitting because that's what happens when you mindlessly circumambulate. As we see here, you don't go anywhere and you end up right back where you started. -)
no need for slandering...however if thats the best u can do...cool! -)
I don't have time to waste on slandering. Those are merely observations based on what you say.
from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.
the problem perhaps is with either ur reading or ur comprehension or both....i think i should go at a pace at which u can understand..so i will try again...using emphasis now and then to make u understand better!
let me recall ur initial reply..which was posted before what u pasted above claiming to be ur initial response
ayman wrote
928. O you who had faith, those who set up partners are pollution so they do not come near the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden after this year of theirs. And if you fear neediness, The God will enrich you from His favor if He willed, indeed The God is knowledgeable, wise.One possible understanding is that "after this year of theirs" in 928 indicates that those who setup partners were previously allowed to come near the institute of hearing and obeying the restriction ("al-masjid al-7aram" as per 2225.
as u can see u had stated that previously those who associate were allowed to come near masjidalharam..now take the meaning of yaqrubu which u proposed..as having influence..so it clearly follows that according to u previously those who associate were allowed to influence masjidalharam...so my question was why is it that those who associate had previously been allowed being near or influential to masjidalharam and later disallowed...i have repeated this question twice now and i hope the query is clear to u now!
If you knew what "al-masjid al-haram" is then you would know the answer. As I said before the institution of obeying the restriction implements obeying what The God restricted on us. Obviously, the people of the book who were already there before the great reading were given restrictions from The God to implement. However, they didn't manage the institution of obeying the restriction properly and hence used their influence to restrict what The God didn't restrict and to allow what The God restricted (6148, 1635). The God sends messenger to fix that (1635). So 928 simply states that those who setup partners (as in 6148 and 1635) should not be allowed to influence the institution of obeying the restriction from that point on (since now you have a message that restores the correct restriction).
I am pretty sure from your attitude so far that you are going to take the above and lazily criticise it without making any effort to provide your own view. You will not even tell us what you think "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" mean and you will not translate them. I asked you many times and you still haven't done it. So my observation (not slander) based on your attitude is that you are ignorant of what they mean and are too lazy to try to find out.
ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
Also, another consideration is the verb "yaqrabu". I think that its meaning needs to be more carefully studied. 7114 makes it clear that the word "muqaraboon" can be used to signify not merely "come near" but "being one of those with influence or one of the political decision makers". So a better understanding is that "al-masjid al-7aram" is made for all people but those who setup partners cannot have influence on it or be the decision makers about it. This would be consistent with the function of al-masjid al-7aram".So to reiterate, both "al-bayt al-haram" and "al-masjid al-haram" were made for all people. However, being one of those who have influence on "al-masjid al-haram" should not be allowed for those who setup partners, that is all.
so that is not all...as i tried to explain above! coming back to muqaraabun as in 7114...are u saying the magicians becoming muqarrabun to pharaoh would have meant that they would be able to influence his decisions?...that he would consult them before making or executing his decisions...or they would make him implement their suggestions?....or they would be of those who would set the laws alongside pharaoh...what do u imply by having influence on the political decision makers?
In a political context, think of "muqaraboon" as the "inner circle" of the leader. So all of the above can be implications of "muqaraboon". So it is influence in terms of having the leader make decisions and laws that are favorable to them. For an institution, "muqaraboon" would similarly be those who have great influence on it.
ayman wrote
Quote from ayman on April 19, 2006, 055214 PM
The message of The God are in His signs. The signs are both in the great reading and all around us. So those who don't believe in The God listen and see those signs everyday. You don't have to believe in anything to listen to The God's signs. It is up to The God to guide people or not after they listen.everybody sees these signs which u speak of...so u have essentially stated nothing! the sun...the moon...these are from the ayats of god and u do not need to involve a hajj to listen or witness these signs...do u?...so when god talks 'ayatin bayyinatin' in the bayt it cannot be these signs as these...as u urself agree...are witnessed every second by everybody...and there is no need for an annual fair to listen to these signs!
The God tells us that those clear signs are the "maqam Ibrahim", i.e. the position/status of Ibrahim. If you knew what the position/status of Ibrahim then you would have known the answer. Obviously, you don't know what it is, otherwise you would have told us by now.
ayman wrote
As for Abraham, he was ordered to invite people WITH the "hajj" not TO the "hajj". The "hajj" is simply a tool to invite people. Everyone will come to the market that is setup in a place where there are no partners with The God because as stated in the great reading, the FIRST reason is to WITNESS BENEFITS.atleast use technically sound lies if u want to distort the word of god...'adhinat' is not invite....perhaps 'inform/bring to attention'...perhaps 'put in the ear of'...so it says 'and put in the ears of the humankind/inform the humankind/bring to attention the humankind with/by the hajj'...i hope u will make a note of this as u have a habit of distorting quran and claiming the contrary!
also...this renders the rest of what u wrote as irrelevant as it was based on something which has been shown as being distortion of quran! -)
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".
So you can also say "inform people with the market" if you prefer. Again, it is clear that the "hajj"/market is a tool not an end in itself.
i think v have seen so far who has a habit of slandering others and even distorting the words of quran! -)
Just observations. When you take your Sunni glasses off (this is where you got your "circumambulate" and mechanically repeating words from) then maybe you can see that those are not distortions. We can talk again then.
ayman wrote
This is why a more productive activity for you is to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean and maybe you will come to the same conclusion as me and save us both some time. If you don't come to the same conclusion then maybe you will come to a better conclusion and add value instead of endlessly arguing about the same point due to your inability to read my first response.figure out that which has been presented to u thus far and then v will discuss productivity! and yes...read a little better...comprehend a bit better...both the quran and what i write...and stay away from slandering and distorting...both my words and the words of god!-)
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.
Peace,
Ayman
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ok...i think i will cut out the chidin and be a bit more polite..i will try.. ;D
ayman wrote
You are again demonstrating your inability to read. In 7615, "yutaf" is in the passive. This means that it is not the cups coming together by themselves but are brought.where do u find me talkin about cups comin together?.....i even gave u an example of handin over a cup to somebody...i did not talk about a cup walkin its way to somebody...did i ? so why are u brining up active and passive sans rhyme and reason? do stick to the topic without trying to lose it in trivialities!
that said...i will repeat cups brought together is not minglin...it is gatherin and like i asked..is not being brought together being 'jama'? easiest way out demonstrate ur meaning by translating 7615 using 'mingle with one another'!
ayman wrote
Instead of lazily criticizing and giving advice without doing it yourself, check a Thesaurus and you will see that "come together" is a synonym of "mingle".lolz...dont mind...but did u look up that word? -S
let us first understand what a thesaurus is...a thesaurus is a collection of synonyms homonyms and other related words...2 words listed under the same heading of a thesaurus may or may not be interchangeable in all cases...so using a thesaurus requires discretion...i will give u an example of 'mingle'
mingle is to mix...to blend...to socialise...to interact...i mingled with the crowd i interacted with them...i blended with them...not merely came together...mingle has a different connotation!
however...check a thesauri and u will find cohabit having both copulate and mingle as 'synonyms'...but a user should know they are not...because a thesauri does not merely contain synonyms..it lists related words! now then copulate has cohabit as a synonym and cohabit has mingle as a synonym...so using ur understanding of synonyms and thesaurus tawaf would mean
copulation...who copulate at the annual fair...or cups and humans copulatin....i hope this makes u understand better -Slet us now understand synonym..2 words are synonyms if they convey the same meaning...however they may not necessarily be interchangeable....example knowledge and wisdom...a person of knowledge is not necessarily wise...knowledgeable can also be learned...u can say so and so is very learned...knows a lot of stuff...that does not necessarily imply wisdom! another example heavy and fat synonyms if i say...'i am quite heavy/fat'....but if talkin about machines thats a heavy machine...u cant say thats a fat machine!...point is synonyms are not necessarily interchangeable...hope this
helps a bit -)ayman wrote
Given your attitude, I am not going to waste my time on educating you on what a Thesaurus is or how to use it.never mind...i did that for us! and yes..do post the results for synomyms of 'mingle'....i would like to have a look at them!
ayman wrote
This is funny "I lied when I said that you understand 'tawaf' as circumambulate" but then in the next paragraph you say that you indeed understand it as circumambulate when applied to 2226.laugh if it is funny...-S...then read..then try to understand..-)...yes...when applied to 2226...if u read what i wrote above u will understand that some words can be interchanged under specific conditions...go about the bayt under 2226 can be translated as circumambulate the bayt as it means the same thing...going about the bayt...were u not talkin about synonyms?...talk about double stanards...hmmm...lies...slanders...distortion...now double standards....cool! -)
ayman wrote
You are obviously still confused. You understood it as circumambulate and then when YOU WERE FORCED to admit based on indisputable evidence from 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, 7615 that it cannot mean circumambulate, you came up with "going about". Now it is back to square one again and your reverted back to circumambulate. This is fitting because that's what happens when you mindlessly circumambulate. As we see here, you don't go anywhere and you end up right back where you started. -)i have made clear that i understood 'tawaf' as going about...if u want to persist in ur slandering do so by all means..i am trying to explain to u in plain english the meaning of circumambulate...thesaurus...mingle...synonyms...but if u would rather live in the comfort of ur distortions...u are free to do so by all means...dont forget ur understanding of a thesaurus betrays u as advocatin copulation at annual fairs and between humans and cups! -)
ayman wrote
I don't have time to waste on slandering. Those are merely observations based on what you say.not based on what i say...based on ur comprehension...but seems u really are not appreciating the difference between what i say (or quran says) and how u understand it..so u indeed are slandering...and ur credibility is at stake! -)
ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the
prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.hold on...haram is restriction alright...lets pass it till v have reasons to look it over...but masjid being an 'institution of obedience of restriction' is ur assumption...masjid is simply place of sujud....give reference from the quran which authorises u to include 'institution!
ayman wrote
If you knew what "al-masjid al-haram" is then you would know the answer. As I said before the institution of obeying the restriction implements obeying what The God restricted on us.Obviously, the people of the book who were already there before the great reading were given restrictions from The God to implement.However, they didn't manage the institution of obeying the restriction properly and hence used their influence to restrict what The God didn't restrict and to allow what The God restricted (6148, 1635).The God sends messenger to fix that (1635). So 928 simply states that those who setup partners (as in 6148 and 1635) should not be allowed to influence the institution of obeying the restriction from that point on (since now you have a message that restores the correct restriction).
lets see! -)
ayman wrote
I am pretty sure from your attitude so far that you are going to take the above and lazily criticise it without making any effort to provide your own view. You will not even tell us what you think "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" mean and you will not translate them. I asked you many times and you still haven't done it. So my observation (not slander) based on your attitude is that you are ignorant of what they mean and are too lazy to try to find out.chill...are u concerned about ur theory based on assumptions bein checked for reliability?...let us be done with checkin out ur understandin before movin on to mine....why rush into too many things at the same time?.....i dont post stuff spreadin my assumptions as words of god...those who do have to stand the verification process ;D
ayman wrote
In a political context, think of "muqaraboon" as the "inner circle" of the leader. So all of the above can be implications of "muqaraboon". So it is influence in terms of having the leader make decisions and laws that are favorable to them. For an institution, "muqaraboon" would similarly be those who have great influence on it.v will get back to this when v will need to!...but u already know i have nothin to get back to...n then u hear them say they are not slanderin....lolz -)
ayman wrote
The God tells us that those clear signs are the "maqam Ibrahim", i.e. the position/status of Ibrahim. If you knew what the position/status of Ibrahim then you would have known the answer. Obviously, you don't know what it is, otherwise you would have told us by now.obviously....lolz! and u say u dont work on assumptions! by the way...when i asked as to why would those who do not believe in abraham and his message heed him...u were talkin about signs of god bein there for all to see and that it does not require belief in god....when reminded u dont need an annual fair to see these signs u are talkin about maqamu ibrahim...so why would those who do not benefit from other signs of god benefit from this sign?
ayman wrote
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".ahan...when i tell u the same thing....that some meanings are interchangeable under some conitions u persist in ur slanderin...n u want for urself considerations which u deny unto others....hmmm!
ayman wrote
So you can also say "inform people with the market" if you prefer. Again, it is clear that the "hajj"/market is a tool not an end in itself.not prefer...prefer is when u have a choice...invite is definitely beyond the scope of application....why dont u demonstrate the structure of this clear tool and tell me where these annual fairs take place?...where do u set up ur annual fair?...will u say this forum..??...how this fair is set up..the invitation cards...elaborate...but i think v can do without it for some time! ;D
ayman wrote
Just observations. When you take your Sunni glasses off (this is where you got your "circumambulate" and mechanically repeating words from) then maybe you can see that those are not distortions. We can talk again then.3 lies in a single statement...from somebody who talks about hajj being annual fairs where people can copulate....lolz!
ayman wrote
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.let us see u explain how u derive ur understanding of 'masjid' from the quran! ;D
peace -)
-
let us now understand synonym..2 words are synonyms if they convey the same meaning...however they may not necessarily be interchangeable....example knowledge and wisdom...a person of knowledge is not necessarily wise...knowledgeable can also be learned...u can say so and so is very learned...knows a lot of stuff...that does not necessarily imply wisdom! another example heavy and fat synonyms if i say...'i am quite heavy/fat'....but if talkin about machines thats a heavy machine...u cant say thats a fat machine!...point is synonyms are not necessarily interchangeable...hope this
helps a bit -)thats better...that was inintentiol boldness! -S
ayman wrote
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".ahan...when i tell u the same thing....that some meanings are interchangeable under some conitions u persist in ur slanderin...n u want for urself considerations which u deny unto others....hmmm!
ayman wrote
So you can also say "inform people with the market" if you prefer. Again, it is clear that the "hajj"/market is a tool not an end in itself.not prefer...prefer is when u have a choice...invite is definitely beyond the scope of application....why dont u demonstrate the structure of this clear tool and tell me where these annual fairs take place?...where do u set up ur annual fair?...will u say this forum..??...how is this fair set-up..the invitation cards...elaborate...but i think v can do without it for some time! ;D
ayman wrote
Just observations. When you take your Sunni glasses off (this is where you got your "circumambulate" and mechanically repeating words from) then maybe you can see that those are not distortions. We can talk again then.3 lies in a single statement...from somebody who talks of hajj as annual fairs where people can copulate....lolz!
ayman wrote
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.let us see u explain how u derive ur understanding of 'masjid' from the quran! ;D
bad invite -S
-
Peace,
ok...i think i will cut out the chidin and be a bit more polite..i will try.. ;D
Great.
where do u find me talkin about cups comin together?.....i even gave u an example of handin over a cup to somebody...i did not talk about a cup walkin its way to somebody...did i ? so why are u brining up active and passive sans rhyme and reason? do stick to the topic without trying to lose it in trivialities!
that said...i will repeat cups brought together is not minglin...it is gatherin and like i asked..is not being brought together being 'jama'? easiest way out demonstrate ur meaning by translating 7615 using 'mingle with one another'!
- And brought together for them are vessels of silver and crystal cups.
"Passed on them" could also fit but not what you conjectured earlier, which was "going about" or "circumnavigate".
let us first understand what a thesaurus is...a thesaurus is a collection of synonyms homonyms and other related words...2 words listed under the same heading of a thesaurus may or may not be interchangeable in all cases...so using a thesaurus requires discretion...i will give u an example of 'mingle'
mingle is to mix...to blend...to socialise...to interact...i mingled with the crowd i interacted with them...i blended with them...not merely came together...mingle has a different connotation!
however...check a thesauri and u will find cohabit having both copulate and mingle as 'synonyms'...but a user should know they are not...because a thesauri does not merely contain synonyms..it lists related words! now then copulate has cohabit as a synonym and cohabit has mingle as a synonym...so using ur understanding of synonyms and thesaurus tawaf would mean
copulation...who copulate at the annual fair...or cups and humans copulatin....i hope this makes u understand better -Slet us now understand synonym..2 words are synonyms if they convey the same meaning...however they may not necessarily be interchangeable....example knowledge and wisdom...a person of knowledge is not necessarily wise...knowledgeable can also be learned...u can say so and so is very learned...knows a lot of stuff...that does not necessarily imply wisdom! another example heavy and fat synonyms if i say...'i am quite heavy/fat'....but if talkin about machines thats a heavy machine...u cant say thats a fat machine!...point is synonyms are not necessarily interchangeable...hope this
helps a bit -)It doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.
never mind...i did that for us! and yes..do post the results for synomyms of 'mingle'....i would like to have a look at them!
Mingle
Come together, intermingle.
Circulate, socialize.
Merge, mix, blend, combine, fuse, join.laugh if it is funny...-S...then read..then try to understand..-)...yes...when applied to 2226...if u read what i wrote above u will understand that some words can be interchanged under specific conditions...go about the bayt under 2226 can be translated as circumambulate the bayt as it means the same thing...going about the bayt...were u not talkin about synonyms?...talk about double stanards...hmmm...lies...slanders...distortion...now double standards....cool! -)
One starts by understanding the context and then giving a meaning that best fits in the majority of occurrences. Since in the occurrences of the term, circumambulate doesn't really fit best, then the only reason for you to choose it over all other words is that can provide an excuse for the spinning that sectarians do in Mecca. This exposes that your objective is not to find the best meaning that has a common theme that fits in all the occurrences in order to understand what The God is telling us. Your objective is the find any excuse to justify what sectarians do in Mecca.
i have made clear that i understood 'tawaf' as going about...if u want to persist in ur slandering do so by all means..i am trying to explain to u in plain english the meaning of circumambulate...thesaurus...mingle...synonyms...but if u would rather live in the comfort of ur distortions...u are free to do so by all means...dont forget ur understanding of a thesaurus betrays u as advocatin copulation at annual fairs and between humans and cups! -)
As I said above, it doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.
If you have a better meaning that doesn't start from the preconception of justifying spinning around a stone then share it.
not based on what i say...based on ur comprehension...but seems u really are not appreciating the difference between what i say (or quran says) and how u understand it..so u indeed are slandering...and ur credibility is at stake! -)
This is what all sectarians say. They say that they follow Hadith based on what the great reading says about obeying the messenger. They commit many evils based on what they think the great reading says. This is because they read the great reading through their preconceptions. If you didn't see people in Mecca circumambulating you wouldn't have reached the conclusion that you did.
ayman wrote
The word "haram" means restriction. The word "masjid" means an institution of "sujud". As we saw above "sujud" primary meaning is obedience. So when we put all this together, "al-masjid al-haram" means the institution of obedience of the restriction.Maybe you don't know what "institution" means. When you institutionalize something this means that you implement it. Of course the
prophet and his followers were prevented by the rejecters from implementing the obedience of the restriction. What is restricted is given in 6151-153, among other passages.hold on...haram is restriction alright...lets pass it till v have reasons to look it over...but masjid being an 'institution of obedience of restriction' is ur assumption...masjid is simply place of sujud....give reference from the quran which authorises u to include 'institution!
What does a physical place have anything to do with the restriction or what is said in 6151-153?
It is common sense that the floors, walls and ceilings of a physical mosque have nothing to do with any restriction. So the burden of proof is on you to bring any evidence from the great reading that shows that "masjid" is a physical place of "sujud". Moreover, you didn't tell us what 'sujud" means so it looks like you don't know what it means.
Again, you know very well that when people talk about "the court" or "government" they don't mean the physical building but they mean the institution. You know that it is an eloquent way to talk that assumes that both the listener and the talker are not superficial and merely concerned with the physical aspects but are concerned with communicating deeper ideas. You allow yourself to routinely use eloquent speech that has deeper meaning than the merely superficial physical meaning but you deny such ability to The God. Again, my advice to you is you should appreciate The God more.
ayman wrote
If you knew what "al-masjid al-haram" is then you would know the answer. As I said before the institution of obeying the restriction implements obeying what The God restricted on us. Obviously, the people of the book who were already there before the great reading were given restrictions from The God to implement. However, they didn't manage the institution of obeying the restriction properly and hence used their influence to restrict what The God didn't restrict and to allow what The God restricted (6148, 1635).The God sends messenger to fix that (1635). So 928 simply states that those who setup partners (as in 6148 and 1635) should not be allowed to influence the institution of obeying the restriction from that point on (since now you have a message that restores the correct restriction).
lets see! -)
I haven't seen anything from you apart from your obsession with circumambulate.
ayman wrote
I am pretty sure from your attitude so far that you are going to take the above and lazily criticise it without making any effort to provide your own view. You will not even tell us what you think "al-masjid al-haram" and "al-bayt al-haram" mean and you will not translate them. I asked you many times and you still haven't done it. So my observation (not slander) based on your attitude is that you are ignorant of what they mean and are too lazy to try to find out.chill...are u concerned about ur theory based on assumptions bein checked for reliability?...let us be done with checkin out ur understandin before movin on to mine....why rush into too many things at the same time?.....i dont post stuff spreadin my assumptions as words of god...those who do have to stand the verification process ;D
It doesn't look like you have anything that we can check.
ayman wrote
In a political context, think of "muqaraboon" as the "inner circle" of the leader. So all of the above can be implications of "muqaraboon". So it is influence in terms of having the leader make decisions and laws that are favorable to them. For an institution, "muqaraboon" would similarly be those who have great influence on it.v will get back to this when v will need to!...but u already know i have nothin to get back to...n then u hear them say they are not slanderin....lolz -)
So prove me wrong by telling us what your interpretation is.
ayman wrote
The God tells us that those clear signs are the "maqam Ibrahim", i.e. the position/status of Ibrahim. If you knew what the position/status of Ibrahim then you would have known the answer. Obviously, you don't know what it is, otherwise you would have told us by now.obviously....lolz! and u say u dont work on assumptions! by the way...when i asked as to why would those who do not believe in abraham and his message heed him...u were talkin about signs of god bein there for all to see and that it does not require belief in god....when reminded u dont need an annual fair to see these signs u are talkin about maqamu ibrahim...so why would those who do not benefit from other signs of god benefit from this sign?
Who said that they would necessarily benefit from the signs? All that is said is "whoever enters it (the house) is safe".
ayman wrote
If you cared to check the great reading, then you would have seen that the word 'adhin' also means permit. So when you permit someone into your house or inform him to come to your house, you are essentially inviting him into your house. This is why the meaning doesn't change with using "inform" instead of "invite".ahan...when i tell u the same thing....that some meanings are interchangeable under some conitions u persist in ur slanderin...n u want for urself considerations which u deny unto others....hmmm!
But you didn't tell us anything about any conditions. You didn't tell us what you "circumambulate" around. You didn't tell us what purpose it has. You didn't tell us how the idea of "circumambulate" came to you from the great reading and not from your preconceptions because you watched sectarians do it.
not prefer...prefer is when u have a choice...invite is definitely beyond the scope of application....why dont u demonstrate the structure of this clear tool and tell me where these annual fairs take place?...where do u set up ur annual fair?...will u say this forum..??...how this fair is set up..the invitation cards...elaborate...but i think v can do without it for some time! ;D
I already told you where it takes place (from 2226) but you don't understand. You have to know the basics first. You don't know what "sujud" or "masjid" is and you refuse to take The God at his word when he tells us that the place is "DO NOT SETUP WITH ME ANYTHING", then when I ask you to share your understanding your refuse. How can I share with you any of the above when you don't understand the basics?
3 lies in a single statement...from somebody who talks about hajj being annual fairs where people can copulate....lolz!
Instead of imagining about copulation, try to focus on higher activities such as understanding the great reading and sharing your understanding with others.
ayman wrote
This is just a lazy excuse in order not to make an effort to figure out what masjidalharam and baytalharam mean.let us see u explain how u derive ur understanding of 'masjid' from the quran! ;D
You can see it here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
It is not a perfect understanding but it is better than what is out there.
Only The God can have perfect comprehension of everything. We can only actively try to get to the best interpretation (54. This is why it is important to present better interpretations and not just be satisfied with passively making criticism based on preconceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
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ayman wrote
Great.yes ;D
ayman wrote
7615. And brought together for them are vessels of silver and crystal cups.hey...no 'mingling' in there...hmmm...seems u have had a change of mind about copulation's synonym ;D
ayman wrote
"Passed on them" could also fit but not what you conjectured earlier, which was "going about" or "circumnavigate".from "minglin" to "come together" to "brought together" to "passed on them".....which 1 is ur general understandin....and yes..."goin about" does fit..and it fits a lot better than copulation or minglin! -)
ayman wrote
It doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.its not about which thesauri u use...rather about how to use it...and hey...no comments on ur copulation theory?? must be a bit uncomfy...i think! -) ...'going about' can be used...if u cannot see that...i can demostrate! -)
ayman wrote
Mingle
Come together, intermingle.
Circulate, socialize.
Merge, mix, blend, combine, fuse, join.dont mind....but the source? no offence...but goin by ur level of comprehension u might have actually succeeded in unwillingly (or willingly) misinterpreting the source itself! -)
ayman wrote
One starts by understanding the context and then giving a meaning that best fits in the majority of occurrences. Since in the occurrences of the term, circumambulate doesn't really fit best, then the only reason for you to choose it over all other words is that can provide an excuse for the spinning that sectarians do in Mecca. This exposes that your objective is not to find the best meaning that has a common theme that fits in all the occurrences in order to understand what The God is telling us. Your objective is the find
any excuse to justify what sectarians do in Mecca.as it is u are strugglin hard enough speakin for urself...dont bother to speak for others! -) by the way....i wonder what context therein prompted u to suggest copulation (accordin to ur understandin of thesaurus).....;D
ayman wrote
As I said above, it doesn't matter what Thesaurus you use, you cannot use "circumambulate" or "circumnavigate" or even "going about" in 2458, 5224, 5617, 7619, 3745, 4371, and 7615.If you have a better meaning that doesn't start from the preconception of justifying spinning around a stone then share it.
get the meanin of 'goin about'...and this time around quote the sources! -) just to quote an example have u ever/never seen servers "goin about" the guests (at parties) servin them drinks and stuff?
and do u still stick to understanding hajj as an annual fair for copulation? if not give a better word or admit u did not know how to use a thesaurus...especially when u (thankfully) decided not to teach me its usage! -)
ayman wrote
This is what all sectarians say. They say that they follow Hadith based on what the great reading says about obeying the messenger. They commit many evils based on what they think the great reading says. This is because they read the great reading through their preconceptions. If you didn't see people in Mecca circumambulating you wouldn't have reached the conclusion that you did.rather than tryin to hide embarrassment and resortin to baseless remarks workin upon improvin understandin...would not that be better?...why would somebody want to live the rest of his life in assumptions and lies? -)
it is a predominantly pantheist/atheist belief that everythin is symbolical...some (not all) buddhists and hindus (perhaps others) try to explain much in their (religious) scriptures as symbolic...so how much do u draw from them? -)
ayman wrote
What does a physical place have anything to do with the restriction or what is said in 6151-153?seems u wont stop quotin the quran out of context....the context of those verse makes it clear that those who associate claimed to have made certain restrictions in accordance with god's revelations...so those verses tell what are the things that really are from the restrictions of god!
example certain people who distort the quran claim that god allows its believers to associate with it...to such people the answer would be
6151 ....That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him....ayman wrote
It is common sense that the floors, walls and ceilings of a physical mosque have nothing to do with any restriction. So the burden of proof is on you to bring any evidence from the great reading that shows that "masjid" is a physical place of "sujud". Moreover, you didn't tell us what 'sujud" means so it looks like you don't know what it means.so is it common sense that all u do is try to evade answerin...as is ur wont and v have seen this before! i do not write thesis founded upon assumptions...who do so have to provide the proof...if ur proof was that which u have written above its a glarin failure...so try again! -)
and yes...it does seem u are now thinkin twice...ur earlier 'u dont know' is replaced by 'looks like u dont know'....doesnt hurt to think before speakin...(i hope -S)...infact would have saved somebody the trouble of tryin to defend well-documented assumptions! -)
ayman wrote
Again, you know very well that when people talk about "the court" or "government" they don't mean the physical building but they mean the institution. You know that it is an eloquent way to talk that assumes that both the listener and the talker are not superficial and merely concerned with the physical aspects but are concerned with communicating deeper ideas. You allow yourself to routinely use eloquent speech that has deeper meaning than the merely superficial physical meaning but you deny such ability to The God.
Again, my advice to you is you should appreciate The God more.yes thats a very good advice -)
however i think v agreed that ur oft-quoted 'the physical buildin masjidalzhar does not issue fatwas...people in it do' is a worthless example in this context to justify ur assumptions! but what it does imply is that the masjidalzhar which issues fatwa is the committee of a physical masjid alazhar...so to defend ur assumption u now have to find a physical masjid
alharam the committe of which has the power to issue fatwas!also....u talked about masjidalharam as implementation of obedience of restrictions...however masjidalzhar (nor any court) does not implement the fatwas it gives...it just issues edicts and implementation is to left to the concerned authorities....so ur definition of masjidalharam as implementation of alharam runs into trouble as ur analogic masjidalazhar is not implementation of alazhar or any other thing! -)
and pick ur choice for masjidalharam is it 'institution of obedience of restriction/guild'....or 'implementation of obedience of restriction/act of instituting'....much of ur assumptions are henceforth goin to be dealt with the choice u make here! -)
ayman wrote
I haven't seen anything from you apart from your obsession with circumambulate.how about gettin ur eyes checked? not spiritual...just physical...atleast for now ;D
ayman wrote
It doesn't look like you have anything that we can check.ah..'looks like u dont have' rather than 'u dont have'...i see improvement...yes...ego needs time to be tamed! -) needs workin..slow but
steady! -)
ayman wrote
So prove me wrong by telling us what your interpretation is.u mean again? cool.....v will get to this when v are done with masjid! -)
ayman wrote
Who said that they would necessarily benefit from the signs? All that is said is "whoever enters it (the house) is safe".so answer this whoever enters it is 'safe'....how will they be made 'safe'? also since u have added house in brackets...show how u understand house with giving reference from the quran....is it an open field? or a forum? or something else? -)
ayman wrote
But you didn't tell us anything about any conditions. You didn't tell us what you "circumambulate" around. You didn't tell us what purpose it has. You didn't tell us how the idea of "circumambulate" came to you from the great reading and not from your preconceptions because you watched sectarians do it.nor did u tell us how u got ur copulation theory! -S it is quite clear that ur copulation theory does not have any basis in quran....perhaps some carnival u cant get outta ur mind...they happen to be annual 'affairs'!
ayman wrote
I already told you where it takes place (from 2226) but you don't understand. You have to know the basics first. You don't know what "sujud" or "masjid" is and you refuse to take The God at his word when he tells us that the place is "DO NOT SETUP WITH ME ANYTHING", then when I ask you to share your understanding your refuse. How can I share with you any of the above when you don't understand the basics?2226 Wa-ith bawwa/na li-ibraheema makana albayti an la tushrik bee shay-an watahhir baytiya liltta-ifeena waalqa-imeena waalrrukkaAAi alssujoodi
2226 and when bawwana for/to abraham makana (of) the house that not u associate with me aught and purtify my house for atafieena and alqaimeena and arrukaissujjud!
so why did u then stop at 'not shall u associate with me aught'...why did u leave out the rest of the sentence as 'location'? yes...why did u leave out the rest of the sentence from ur proposed location?
makan is a place...bayt is a place....even if u take mars as the place/makan for ur carnivals 'do not associate' is not a place....'mars' is not 'do not assocate'....empirical failure..so the makana cannot be 'do not associate with me'......no wonder u are so lost! -)
what the verse does say is and when we bawwana for abraham the makan of the house (said) that not shall u associate aught with me and purify my house for the taifeen and the qaimeen and the arrukuussujud!
i will know u will jump at there being no "said" in the verse
263 Wa-ith akhathna meethaqakum warafaAAna fawqakumu alttoora khuthoo ma ataynakum biquwwatin waothkuroo ma feehi laAAallakum tattaqoona
263 and when we akadha ur meethaqa and we rafaa above u the toor khudhoo what we ata u with quwwat and adhkuru what is in it...laallakum tattaqoon
263 and when we akadha ur meethaqa and we rafaa above u the toor (saying) khudhoo what we ata u with quwwat and adhkuru what is in it...laallakum tattaqoon
as v have repeatedly seen u distort the quran and then claim that others refuse to take the word of god...when in reality it is ur distortion that is refused...also quite clearly u say the word 'adhdhin' can be taken as 'invite' and u even persist in it rather than admittin that it was a blunder...so would u expect somebody who wilfully distorts the quran to be taken at his word? -)
ayman wrote
Instead of imagining about copulation, try to focus on higher activities such as understanding the great reading and sharing your understanding with others.a bit uncomfy about the copulation theory?...cool...atleast there's hope -) understanding quran is one thing...to share assumptions without checkin its credibility and postin them as the lost understandin is another! -)
ayman wrote
You can see it herehttp//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
It is not a perfect understanding but it is better than what is out there.
without wantin to comment on that article...how do u know it is better than what is out there?...whatever is out there! -)
ayman wrote
Only The God can have perfect comprehension of everything. We can only actively try to get to the best interpretation (54. This is why it is important to present better interpretations and not just be satisfied with passively making criticism based on preconceptions.important as it is to offer better interpretations...it is more important to offer them as suggestions rather than assertions...ur state can be understood by the fact that though u claim that u have an imperfect understandin (yet) when u talk u assert them as established facts! -)
peace -)
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Hi thegod,
just to share something - check out/try in any of the ayah's where the word Almasjid Alharam accurs the following please " Undertaking / doing/ carrying out , of the forbidden or of the Haraam".
And you said "makan is a place...bayt is a place....even if u take mars as the place/makan for ur carnivals 'do not associate' is not a place....'mars' is not 'do not assocate'....empirical failure..so the makana cannot be 'do not associate with me'......no wonder u are so lost! -)"
To understand what is makaan according to its usage in the quran check out the following
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4400.0
Gods Blessings.
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simple wrote
just to share something - check out/try in any of the ayah's where the word Almasjid Alharam accurs the following please " Undertaking / doing/ carrying out , of the forbidden or of the Haraam"
And you said "makan is a place...bayt is a place....even if u take mars as the place/makan for ur carnivals 'do not associate' is not a place....'mars' is not 'do not assocate'....empirical failure..so the makana cannot be 'do not associate with me'......no wonder u are so lost! -)"
To understand what is makaan according to its usage in the quran check out the following
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4400.0
hi! i have already talked about this.....still to brief u about it it is 'likeness makana likeness in the very least u have to have 2 similar ideas if not entities ayatan makana ayatin...evil makana good...get the drift?
the annual fair u are talkin about needs a place....be it in jerusalem or in las vegas or on this forum a place! 'do not associate with me' is not a place! words and ideas should be in harmony u can very well say 'let us live in harmony' but u will still need to live in a physical place!
u cannot live at a location called 'harmony'....but u can live at a physical place and live in a state of harmony in it! same is the case with 2226 monotheism is not a location...it is a state (not as in u s of a)...a belief! and like i asked why leave out the rest of the verse (..and purify my house for the attaifeen and alqaimeen and arrukuussujud) from ur proposed location?
anyway i have to leave...for an indefinite term.....maybe later...till then...-)