Looks Versus Speech
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peace ayman
i believe in code 19 but the VERY basics. And 'his' message is one's interpretation. For me, i came to God alone (quran alone) because as a sunni (ex) i was searching for a translation and i found his, and i believed in the message, and i surely came away thinking 'God alone' and it changed my life, in a drop of a hat. Believe me I have seen Diving guidance with my own eyes. I feel so honored and blessed that God has guided me and that's why i believe Rashad was a messenger because the message he brought made me a believer. And I choose to ignore his appendices, or interpretations, miscalculations etc. .I focus on his message, which was that ' Quran spells out worship of God alone' That's what he felt 19 meant ! What's wrong with that? Anyways peace out
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Peace be upon yuo Ayman,
This is why if you go to their web sites, you will not see much renewal. They are blocked from progressing by their fitna/"trial".
Very well said. That site is almost exactly the same as when I was a was following it, I guess about 6 years ago maybe?
Also Layth, I am so glad you gave verse 775, I have been looking for that verse for soooo long!! However, I do not see anything in the message of 19 as a mathematical message that is logical, respectfully. But I am glad to have found that verse.
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Peace,
There are many people who look at the 19 code in a different way, as myself i only to believe it as an 'alarmsystem' which is logical, as you would doubt certain verses and chapters trustworthyness.
I don't follow Rashad in his thinking or doing, and i believe myself he went beyond logic with his claims. But to totaly neglect some of his findings is also ignorant, as seeing something as true or not should be based on the evidence itself, and not on who discovered it, and how he saw it.
I don't believe the code predicts or tells anything, beside to show the Quran is protected. I have checked many times over the years and i cannot dismiss the evidence. The code doesn't guide me, or tell me how to read the Quran, as i don't believe that is what the code is for. As for the two verses, i need more evidence, but i wouldn't surprise me if it were true. As for using it to calculate anything outside of the Quran, as salaat and so on, i believe is non-sense, as 7430 only says 19 is on it(the Quran), not on anything beside that, as i also don't believe external numbers can be used together with 19, like rashad did with his name. All respect to the man, as he still did his best in his eyes, only to bad he crossed borders of logic.
So the code is not to gain any followers, as most people see it, the pro's and against's. And i think the discussions are funny sometimes. Even if you believe in the code or not, it is still the Quran that guides us. So that is the criteria we have to judge people on. I agree, that if they use to code to 'explain' things, they cross a border, as in my eyes the code is not meant for that. Who cares if you believe in it or not. Some have the feeling that they have an additional proof that it is from God, it doesn't make you more or less a believer in the Quran.
Rashad Khalifa had to shake of his sunni past, like a lot of us on this site. It took us years to be on this level. You also Ayman, so focusing on his sunni-interpretations, is hypocrite. We are now 16 years further, since the man's death. Which is a long way. If i read the forum from the first page to now, i can see the development from shaking off the sunni-interpretation, to focusing on the words alone. This didn't take place overnight. Rashad made mistakes, and some controversial claims. But he took up the fight, where must people didn't dare to go. This is what i give the man credit for. So let's stop focusing on a dead man, and focus on what he discovered, not on his interpretations, just on if there is a code, yes or no. For me it is clearly yes. Does that change my view on the Quran? NO. Does it make me better then Ayman or somebody else? NO, because my believe is based on my understanding of the Quran, and not on if i can count letters and words or not. I believe we have focussed on the wrong discussions. I agree with almost all of Ayman findings about the Quran. Except on this term. Does that block me? No. Does that make Ayman or others less in understanding Quran? No.
I think it is stupid to present people who believe in 19, only as the people of the sites you refer too. Because i have seen the same ignorance on certain issues here on this site. It is not a code that make people blind and ignorant. People are not made blind because of one simple reason. The ego only needs something to make you get 'stuck', so you can't progress. The ego uses hadith, sunna of rashad, interpretation of certain translators, reading words as in titles or fixed meanings instead of letting the Quran show what it means(like in what's in a name article explains), history, their background, concience is enough( enquirer), their excuses to keep on doing their behaviour, idols and what else to be the weapon of the ego to make people blind.
People have seen my thinking the last couple of weeks, and i've not seen a single person calling me something like as now is done on this thread. Not all people who believe in 19 are like those, or think like edip or who else. It is not a code that determines your insight. It is your open-mindness that does that.
So people stop being hypocrite, as all people are on different levels. Focus on different things, instead of labeling people. We were all on different levels a few years ago. If the one who is now you, would meet the old you of a couple of years ago, you wouldn't recgonize each other. Laughing at somebodies ignorance, is easy. But remember, God is laughing at our ignorance too. If you don't agree on something, then just use those words i don't agree because of........ And done, no more words neccesary.
Does it mean, when you say i believe this or that because your right, or because it is the level of understanding you have now?...............this changes and grows every day.....over 20 years from now, we'll laugh at how ignorant we behaved now.
Peace
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Peace arnold
Very, very well-written and thought-out post. I agree wholeheartedly.
Why do we have to see things in black and white?
Do I believe there is something with 19 in the Qur'an? Yes, there do seem to be a lot of patterns that are statistically significant.
Did Khalifa take it too far? And do his followers sometimes take things too far? Absolutely. They did and do this in two ways They take statistically insignificant results of data and make claims based on them. An introduction to statistics would negate many of their claims. No one can deny this. But that doesn't change the fact that there still remain some 19 tendencies in the Qur'an. No one can deny that either. Secondly, Khalifa did take things too far by using statistically insignificant and hand-picked data sets to confirm things like the 17 rakats of traditional salaat, etc. One can clearly see that in his zeal to make things clear for Muslims, he tried to use the Qur'ans 19-tendencies to confirm Sunni philosophies.
With all that said, however, It is possible that there is some sort of 19-related code in the Qur'an. It is also possible that God allowed Rashad to discover it. It is also possible that God allowed Rashad to make all these mistakes as a fitna to see who would choose to replace Sunni ahadith with Rashad's ahadith. It's all a constant trial.
At least that's what my current understanding is. Peace.
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Peace be upon you,
Let me get this right, the person who wrote this book didnt know about the alleged 19 code? And if your understanding is that it was delivered through "prophet Muhammad", are we to believe that there was a verse that he just let go misunderstood?
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Peace be upon you,
Let me get this right, the person who wrote this book didnt know about the alleged 19 code? And if your understanding is that it was delivered through "prophet Muhammad", are we to believe that there was a verse that he just let go misunderstood?
Peace Kyle.
Can you clarify what you're asking? I'm not sure I understand.
Assuming I am interpreting you correctly, if you work within the Qur'anic view that the Reading is God's revelation transmitted through a man to humankind, there is nothing unbelievable about said person not knowing about all layers of the Reading.
For example, we always hear about interpreting verses in light of modern science. Did Muhammad have those same modern scientific interpretations? It's doubtful. He was a man limited by his time and place. This doesn't necessarily mean that he lacked an understanding of the message he was transmitting. It could simply mean that there are many layers to the Qur'an, layers which can be accessed and understood in different ways by different people.
This layering of the Reading, in fact, is what compels people of all times and places to read and study it for its interpretations are never stagnant. In fact, one can argue this is but one of the many miraculous aspects of the Reading.
Similar to the modern science example, it is possible that there was yet another understanding that revealed itself after the advent of the computer, which allowed for the systematic tabulation of the Qur'anic letters/verses/chapters.
Peace.
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Peace,
I study theology, and the only thing that will proof the Quran authenticy is through a code pattern. So it was discovered at the exact moment. As there are so many doubts about its authenticy, even with all the science in it.
i know a lot of so-called followers of 19(how can you follow an alarmsystem?) has distorted its use and meaning. But it will not explain the Quran, or make you more guided. For me it erased all doubt, exactly as predicted in 7431. But i don't follow Rashad's interpretations and claims. I believe in the code, as i can see the pattern, but it only shows a way of verification of the Quran, nothing more nothing less....... -
Peace ik,
i believe in code 19 but the VERY basics. And 'his' message is one's interpretation.
Please show me the passage in the great reading that tells us that we should "believe in Code 19", basics or otherwise.
Besides, even the basics are full of manipulations, as typical of numerology. Please see detailed explanation here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
For me, i came to God alone (quran alone) because as a sunni (ex) i was searching for a translation and i found his, and i believed in the message, and i surely came away thinking 'God alone' and it changed my life, in a drop of a hat. Believe me I have seen Diving guidance with my own eyes. I feel so honored and blessed that God has guided me and that's why i believe Rashad was a messenger because the message he brought made me a believer. And I choose to ignore his appendices, or interpretations, miscalculations etc. .I focus on his message, which was that ' Quran spells out worship of God alone' That's what he felt 19 meant ! What's wrong with that? Anyways peace out
It is wrong because we are clearly told in no uncertain terms in 7431 that the count of the guardians of hell is ONLY a "fitna"/trial for the unappreciative. Nothing of what you said is a function. The message of God alone is that of the book NOT that of Code 19. So try to appreciate the book and give The God His due appreciation and thank Him alone for making you a believer and not as a function of manmade Code 19 numerology.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Arnold,
There are many people who look at the 19 code in a different way, as myself i only to believe it as an 'alarmsystem' which is logical, as you would doubt certain verses and chapters trustworthyness.
Where does it say in the great reading that Code 19 is an "alarm system"?
I don't follow Rashad in his thinking or doing, and i believe myself he went beyond logic with his claims. But to totaly neglect some of his findings is also ignorant, as seeing something as true or not should be based on the evidence itself, and not on who discovered it, and how he saw it.
Based on the evidence itself, Dr. Khalifa used deceptive manipulations in even the most basic Code 19 counts, those of the initials. Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
Unlike all the articles promoting Code 19, the above article is actually based on the evidence and sound mathematical logic. I would actually propose the exact opposite. Namely, it is ignorant not to neglect numerology. I advise everyone who "believes" in Code 19 to learn about numerology and THEN decide if Code 19 is numerology or not.
I don't believe the code predicts or tells anything, beside to show the Quran is protected.
How does it show that the great reading is protected? Can you reverse engineer the great reading from Code 19?
In fact, didn't Code 19 do the exact opposite. It proved that it is not protected.
I have checked many times over the years and i cannot dismiss the evidence.
What did you check? The code? You can't check the same thing with the same knowledge that you have and expect to get different results.
You need to gain new knowledge about numerology and how it manipulates mathematical principles and you will see that Code 19 employs numerology tricks.
The code doesn't guide me, or tell me how to read the Quran, as i don't believe that is what the code is for. As for the two verses, i need more evidence, but i wouldn't surprise me if it were true. As for using it to calculate anything outside of the Quran, as salaat and so on, i believe is non-sense, as 7430 only says 19 is on it(the Quran), not on anything beside that, as i also don't believe external numbers can be used together with 19, like rashad did with his name. All respect to the man, as he still did his best in his eyes, only to bad he crossed borders of logic.
So the code is not to gain any followers, as most people see it, the pro's and against's. And i think the discussions are funny sometimes. Even if you believe in the code or not, it is still the Quran that guides us. So that is the criteria we have to judge people on. I agree, that if they use to code to 'explain' things, they cross a border, as in my eyes the code is not meant for that. Who cares if you believe in it or not. Some have the feeling that they have an additional proof that it is from God, it doesn't make you more or less a believer in the Quran.
Rashad Khalifa had to shake of his sunni past, like a lot of us on this site. It took us years to be on this level. You also Ayman, so focusing on his sunni-interpretations, is hypocrite. We are now 16 years further, since the man's death. Which is a long way. If i read the forum from the first page to now, i can see the development from shaking off the sunni-interpretation, to focusing on the words alone. This didn't take place overnight. Rashad made mistakes, and some controversial claims. But he took up the fight, where must people didn't dare to go. This is what i give the man credit for. So let's stop focusing on a dead man, and focus on what he discovered, not on his interpretations, just on if there is a code, yes or no. For me it is clearly yes.
But we are not focusing on the dead Dr. Khalifa. We are focusing on the "Code" and his claim of messengership which are tightly related. So as we saw above in my initial post which nobody disputed because it is indisputable his claim of messengership is bogus based on the message itself. We also see that Code 19 is numerology. We are not focusing on any person. We are focusing on exposing this fitna/"trial".
Does that change my view on the Quran? NO. Does it make me better then Ayman or somebody else? NO, because my believe is based on my understanding of the Quran, and not on if i can count letters and words or not. I believe we have focussed on the wrong discussions. I agree with almost all of Ayman findings about the Quran. Except on this term. Does that block me? No. Does that make Ayman or others less in understanding Quran? No.
I think it is stupid to present people who believe in 19, only as the people of the sites you refer too. Because i have seen the same ignorance on certain issues here on this site. It is not a code that make people blind and ignorant. People are not made blind because of one simple reason. The ego only needs something to make you get 'stuck', so you can't progress. The ego uses hadith, sunna of rashad, interpretation of certain translators, reading words as in titles or fixed meanings instead of letting the Quran show what it means(like in what's in a name article explains), history, their background, concience is enough( enquirer), their excuses to keep on doing their behaviour, idols and what else to be the weapon of the ego to make people blind.
People have seen my thinking the last couple of weeks, and i've not seen a single person calling me something like as now is done on this thread. Not all people who believe in 19 are like those, or think like edip or who else. It is not a code that determines your insight. It is your open-mindness that does that.
I agree that nothing of the great progress that we all made was a result of Code 19.
So people stop being hypocrite, as all people are on different levels. Focus on different things, instead of labeling people. We were all on different levels a few years ago. If the one who is now you, would meet the old you of a couple of years ago, you wouldn't recgonize each other. Laughing at somebodies ignorance, is easy. But remember, God is laughing at our ignorance too. If you don't agree on something, then just use those words i don't agree because of........ And done, no more words neccesary.
Does it mean, when you say i believe this or that because your right, or because it is the level of understanding you have now?...............this changes and grows every day.....over 20 years from now, we'll laugh at how ignorant we behaved now.
If you talk to people such as Kyle (and there are many others) who used to believe in Code 19, this is almost exactly how he would describe it.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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I study theology, and the only thing that will proof the Quran authenticy is through a code pattern. So it was discovered at the exact moment. As there are so many doubts about its authenticy, even with all the science in it.
How does it prove the authenticity of the great reading? Is this the criteria we are given in the great reading itself for proving its authenticity?
i know a lot of so-called followers of 19(how can you follow an alarmsystem?) has distorted its use and meaning. But it will not explain the Quran, or make you more guided. For me it erased all doubt, exactly as predicted in 7431. But i don't follow Rashad's interpretations and claims. I believe in the code, as i can see the pattern, but it only shows a way of verification of the Quran, nothing more nothing less.......
But that is NOT what 7431 is saying. You are basing your assessment on Dr. Khalifa's biased mistranslation. Even Edip acknowledged that.
Here is Dr. Khalifa's corrupt mistranslation
KHALIFA
7431. We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned
their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the
Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen
the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the
hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose
those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will
say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray
whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the
soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.Here is how Edip honestly corrected Dr. Khalifa's biased translation during our debate
EDIP YUKSEL
7431 We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their
number to be only a trial/punishment for the unappreciative, to convince
those who received the book, to strengthen the faith of the faithful, to
remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as
the believers, and to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and
the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None
knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the
people."Please note Edip's honest corrections
- Instead of the action "to disturb" which doesn't occur in the sentence, now the translation correctly describes the count of the guardians of hell as ONLY a "fitna"/trial/affliction.
- Now "the number" is not the reason why "the faith of the faithful is strengthened". Instead, the reason why "the faith of the faithful is strengthened" and everything else listed is that they see that "their count is only a trial/punishment for the unappreciative".
I give Edip a lot of credit for his honesty and courage above. You can see the rest of this unfinished (and sometimes heated) debate here
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/debate19.htm
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace,
Quote
How does it prove the authenticity of the great reading? Is this the criteria we are given in the great reading itself for proving its authenticity?There are patterns of 19 in the Quran that are not based on numerics but on mathematics, on 7430 refer to it in an interresting way, as we both agree mailika mean controllers. What the pattern does, is giving a way to investigate what is part of it and what not. This showed itself bit by bit. So our understanding grew by itself. The God promises the Quran is protected. If i buy a house, and the seller claims it to be protected, i want to see the alarmsystem myself so i can see that it is protected. The Quran has never changed, how do we know? How can we tell? Wishfull thinking? God made everything checkable for us, our creation, even our re-creation, all is possible to check. This rule also applies to the Quran, as God doesn't need wishfull thinking. All claims can be proven, so also the protection of the Quran.
EDIP YUKSEL
7431 We appointed controllers to be guardians of Gehenna, and we made their
number to be only a trial/punishment for the unappreciative, to convince
those who received the book, to strengthen the faith of the faithful, to
remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as
the believers, and to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and
the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None
knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the
people."I was talking about this, and the mistake rashad made, and you corrected, still don't take away the strenght and message of the verse.
Peace
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Peace Arnold,
There are patterns of 19 in the Quran that are not based on numerics but on mathematics, on 7430 refer to it in an interresting way, as we both agree mailika mean controllers.
What so-called "patterns" do you mean?
What the pattern does, is giving a way to investigate what is part of it and what not.
So what is part of it and what is not?
This showed itself bit by bit. So our understanding grew by itself. The God promises the Quran is protected.
Is this not enough?
If i buy a house, and the seller claims it to be protected, i want to see the alarmsystem myself so i can see that it is protected. The Quran has never changed, how do we know? How can we tell? Wishfull thinking? God made everything checkable for us, our creation, even our re-creation, all is possible to check. This rule also applies to the Quran, as God doesn't need wishfull thinking. All claims can be proven, so also the protection of the Quran.
How does the so-called Code 19 make you know that the great reading never changed? Is the proof given in 482 and the truth in the message that we can emprically verify in our own lives not enough? Haven't you experienced those things?
EDIP YUKSEL
7431 We appointed controllers to be guardians of Gehenna, and we made their
number to be only a trial/punishment for the unappreciative, to convince
those who received the book, to strengthen the faith of the faithful, to
remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as
the believers, and to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and
the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None
knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the
people."I was talking about this, and the mistake rashad made, and you corrected, still don't take away the strenght and message of the verse.
The message of the verse is that what is in blue is the result of what is in red NOT a result of any number by itself. I hope that you can see the difference and the implications.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace all,
Allah has promised to protect THE MESSAGE, not the literal each and every letter. That is why there are 10 versions of al-qur'aan with minor differences in letters and verse counts, but no difference in the overall message. Any code can only be based on counting letters, but can NEVER ENCODE A MESSAGE, as a message is not like letters that can be counted and codified. The same message can be given by 10 different sentences with different words and letters and in different languages that will still express the same message, even if they do not retain the code properties. On the other hand a text can have contradictory, illogical message and yet can have a mathematical code based on each and every letter, and such a code will accomplish nothing.
Example is a "mathematical surah like unto it" at the following link which is "protected" by code 19
http//monotheism.faithweb.com/response.html
Code 19 DOES NOT protect against ADDITION or DELETION of surahs or verses from al-qur'aan that have similar code 19 properties. That is a mathematical fact. For example, what if there were 228 (19 x 12) original chapters with many additional chapters that began with initials and had the code 19 property, and 114 of them were deleted ? or what if there were 133 (19 x 7) original chapters and 19 of them were deleted ? Or what if there were only 57 (19 x 3) or 76 (19 x 4) or 95 (19 x 5) original chapters and extra chapters were added to make up the total of 114 chapters ?
How come code 19 of al-qur'aan has not been published in a SINGLE scientifically reputable journal. If it really had the wonderful statistical significance based on valid and consistent methodology, it should have appeared in a reputable scientific journal by now. A MIRACLE based on mathematics and statistics not even worthy of being published in a reputable scientific journal ? Does not make any sense.
In summary NO CODE (EVEN IF IT EXISTS) can be used to protect even the literal number of words/verses/chapters etc. let alone a MESSAGE.