understanding BaGhA'a in 24:33 and in 19:20 and Tahasanun
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Salaam,
Can Arabic speaken persons help me with a better understanding of the word BaGhA'a in 2433, if i check the word Bagiyyaa in 1920, i get
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchasteAnd i understand these words coming from the same root, meaning
loosing your balance, exceeding the bounds of just, exceeding the bounds, doing injusticealso with Tahasanun in 2433 i get these different undestandings
HaSadNun
To be well fortified
to strengthen
to immunize
to secure
to strengthen one's position
to be secure
be protected
And TaHaSadNun
securing
safeguarding
protection
protectedness
See
Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)
Furthermore, Abu Fazl and Lanes hold similar ideas on the issue of Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify
to secure
to structure (a palace)So i would end up with this understanding of the part of verse 24;33
and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their rights/permission/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life)So it does not only refer to not marrying them off against their permission, but against anything that goes against their permission if it takes away their right to structure their own lives(palaces).
Or as the last one
Protect them against guardians who don't accept the women seeking their own ways of independence.Can any arabic speaken person give his opinion on this?
Peace
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Peace bro
The Arabic word Bahga?a can mean many things, all about perpetrating something, one of its common meanings is prostitution, and as you can see the prostitutes are perpetrating the laws of God by committing this filthy sexual act, they are also perpetrating the common laws of a healthy societies
Whenever an arabic word is used, IT IS ONLY THE CONTEXT THAT WILL LEAD TO THE RIGHT MEANING, it is not the root in any way
And clearly from 2433 that it is talking about a major issue which is ?SEX? therefore the word Bagha?a in 2433 MUST mean prostitution, what confirms that is the sentence ?In Aradan Tahasunan? which means to protect against their sexual desires and be God fearing women
In 1920 we can see how the word was used as a noun ?A Prostitute?, ?Baghia? it is clear that the context is about SEX again because she had a child and no husband to claim that he is the father,
But if you want to take the meaning further that it means do not force the women to do anything wrong, I guess this is fine as long as you put prostitution on top of the list
Peace
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unlawfull Sex is also
endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fitAll these fit into that verse, so your idea that prostitute sticks out is unwarranted, all of these meanings refer to that it is an improper act, something you just don't do.
And in 2433 it is not referred as sex, the verse is about marriage/making a contract.Nikaa meaning mixing/combining/making a covenant/contract. And TaHassanun means
securing
safeguarding
protection
protectednessSo yes, the verse can apply protection against lewdness/improper behavior as fornication, but putting prostitution on top of the list is what you read, not what it directly says. We have to pick out the best translation that will give the widest understanding. That is why i don't agree in total with PMtranslation saying, don't force them into marriage, because it says, don't force them in anything that goes beyond their idea of injustice. This includes prostitution, forced marriage and anything that goes beyond their freedom rights.
Thanx for the comment
Peace
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nobody else any comments?? ? ? !
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if it 's only comment u want
wonderful !
everyone knows how much the rights of women in the world are still being battered - and not only their rights x
so this is a verse for women's freedom of choice and not only about prostitution as usuallay interpreted !
peace all,
lk -
Me and brother ponderingmind came up with these translations. I believe myself both translations apply, because if you read it in Arabic you can read both these understandings and we would limit the grace of the Quran by just picking one out, some would say that laws should be clear, and by thus only one meaning can apply, but in mine opinion both are really clear, especialy also when you keep in mind that you approach the verses from to different angles.
First we look at Nikaa meaning marriage/combining/mixing/contract/covenant/joining
BaGhA'a (as also in 1920 Bagyyaa) meaning
Sought for or after, desired, endeavored to find and take and get (good or evil)
Loving or affecting a thing
Acting wrongfully, injuriously or tyrannically
Seeking or endeavoring to act corruptingly, wrongly and/or unjustly, insolent/disobedient
Exceeding due bounds or just limits in any way
Not right, proper or fit
Prostitute or adulteress, unchasteTahasanun
HaSadNun
To be well fortified
to strengthen
to immunize
to secure
to strengthen one's position
to be secure
be protected
And TaHaSadNun
securing
safeguarding
protection
protectedness
See
Hans Wehr - A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic - Edited by J. Milton Cowan (Third Edition)(183)
Furthermore, Abu Fazl and Lanes hold similar ideas on the issue of Hasuna (Ha,Sad,Nun) Giving
to fortify
to secure
to structure (a palace)Malakat
coming from the word MaLaK
kingdom or realmAyManukum
oath/pledgeMa malakat aymanukum what is under your guardianship/oath
We can translate the verse from marriage point of view
"And combine/marry/bring together off those among you who are single/solitary, and from the virtious/good/righteous among your male and female servants/subordinates/workers. If they are poor/in need, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who are not able to find a combination(match)/not able to marry, continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those (women) under your oath/authorization/guardianship seek marriage/rights, then marry them off/give them their rights if you find they are ready/deserve it, and give them from the wealth of God which he has bestowed on you. and don't compel/drive/force your daughters/your women/young women into something that goes beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, if they wish/desire to structure their own 'palace'(life)/protect their own 'palace'(life).
Or
and don't compel your daughters/your young women into something beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own ways of strengthening their position.
Or
And don't compel your daughters/young women (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/them feeling injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides (from the consequences of such mischievous plans).(2432-33)
"Hayatud Dunya" has been presented to be so by Abu Fazl in his Urdu Dictionary in Urdu words as follows "Fawri Aaish", I have translated above the meaning given by Abu Fazl in Urdu to English to be "Immediate enjoyments".
God is the one who "covers them from the consequences of the plans" and "provides them", Ghafuur=
God is the one who "protects" and "provides" .Ghafuur even means "the one who protects" (Refer Gharibul Quran - Abu Fazl)(page.292). Raheem even means "the one who provides" (Refer Lughatul Quran and Gharibul Quran notes on "Rahma")In the first version it is to combine the single people, so they can find a partner in love, and don't just pick out the rich. Combine the rich and poor to get a balanced society, where equality rules. And God will help them all grow then. And if they can't find a good combination yet, let them wait, and don't fall into illicit acts. And if you are a trustee/responsible over people under your care, that can mean from daughters to anyone under your authority/guardianship, then if they are ready, let them get married if they want, and help them get started. And don't force the daughters/women into situations were they feel they are being treated with unjust, things that go beyond their wishes, their permission, let them fill in their own lives. Let them decide on their own, how they want to develope. So this can apply to choice of education, husband, work, and so on. Just to please your or a family, or to uphold a tradition, or to gratify your wishes and plans you had with them, let those expectations go. Let them be individuals is what this verse tells us. Because God will protect them against the consequences of your plans.
Or if you see Nikaa in a social 'help' contract.
This is what you can see if you approach Nikaa in a social waya) Life in a Quranic system is more social where none would be left solitary. This verse urges the Social programmers to work on providing a strong family structure for these solitaries this may be through marriage or without it. Such is because such solitaries may be a child, a lady, a woman, or even elderly citizens residing in the city.b) Quran wants various classes of the society to come forward and show their enthusiasm in helping these solitaries find their a better life.c) Quran even emphasizes that those with limited means aren't ignored in this call. This is because, there are chances that they may have something to give to some which others may not. So, let this call be generally for all, whosoever feels that he/she is well in a position to fulfill it.
2432
So get the solitaries, the solitaries of society together, combine with them/form social contracts with them, wether you are rich or poor, the virtious, and God will grant them from His Bounty. God is Encompassing, Knowledgable.a) To continue, after going through the responsibilities of the contract (case to case) if one feels that he may not be able to do it, then let him refrain from proceeding with it. One shouldn't be demotivated for being in such a state; it is hope that takes one to the top, if one has the will to learn and strive in getting what he aims at in ways better and productive.
b) I believe that one is more a kind of Trustee when it comes for handling "Ma Malakat Aymanukum". Thus, giving back the trust to the right owners is quite important. So, of those who have responsibilities pertaining "Ma malakat Aymanukum" based on some stipulated contract, should spend of what they own of theirs if requested when it comes for establishing them in their desirable objectives. However, in case, the trustee is more worthy of defining the limits of spending then be it so.
c) Last but not the least, having had given such right to the trustees it doesn't mean that they poke nose and press things to a level that individuals tend to have nothing of their personal identity or say a opinion or even an objective regarding their future. One should understand that it is they who have to decide what they would have to do and that the job of the trustee is to guide them. So, if those under the shade of the trustee particularly the young women wish to strengthen their life in their own independent ways (this may or may not be about marriage) then they should be given all the more utilities to work on it. Let not the gliterring present deceive you in giving them their due rights.2433
And let those who can't find a good combination (to give social help or to find social help), then refrain from it till God helps you, enriches you. And if those who are under your guardianship (Ma Malakat Aymanukum) seek their own rights (Kitaab) then give them once you believe that they deserve it and provide them with the means that God had provided you with.And don't compel/drive/force the people under your guardianship(contract) on you into something (in regards to their personal goals) beyond their just rights/doing them injustice, when they seek their own independent ways of strengthening their personal position (in regards to their personal goals in life).
In order that you make a gain in the goods/In order that you seek the gains of the immediate enjoyments (hayatud Dunya). God is the One who protects and provides (from the consequences of such mischievous plans).So in these interpretations, that both fit perfectly, you get two most important ideas/laws/directions. One protecting women/youths/people under guardianship, and the other to drive people to help social solitary people to get back on their feet.
This is our understanding for now, may God grow our knowledge, any comments are welcome, keep in mind we tried to get the most open and best understanding and translations, and we kept in mind that the Quran is a Book send to guide society....
InshaAllah we will understand more in time...
Peace
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Peace,
Thank you, yes i based my understanding of these verses partly on that article D
The term 'independent' i believe can be used, as it connected with TaHaSaNun. To structure, fortify. Which is metaphorical for structuring your life to be independent.
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Hello,
There are 2 ways of beings chaste
- no sex
- marriage
In , the word almuhsanatu is from the same root and means "married".
That's why I think the best translation of this verse is this one
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1856®ion=E1
(see also the following page for the comment)The interpretation of asad is in this line too
And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled , God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
http//www.geocities.com/masad02/021Please note that, if such a women is not granted freedom to marry, and then commit illicit sex, then she may be forgiven.
Peace
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peace,
I highly disagree with this translation as tahasanun doesn't only refer to unchastity, but to everyhting that goes beyond the justice of a women's right. This has clouded the real meaning of this verse. And limited its message. This verse doesn't apply to slavegirls, as it normally is applied to. But we have still a long way to go. But the traditional approach of this verse is wrong, as slavery is condemned in the Quran, so this verse must be approached with a much wider view.
Peace
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peace,
I highly disagree with this translation as tahasanun doesn't only refer to unchastity, but to everyhting that goes beyond the justice of a women's right. This has clouded the real meaning of this verse. And limited its message. This verse doesn't apply to slavegirls, as it normally is applied to. But we have still a long way to go. But the traditional approach of this verse is wrong, as slavery is condemned in the Quran, so this verse must be approached with a much wider view.
Peace
You can replace "slavegirls" by "female servants/subordinates/workers", and keep the understanding i have proposed, cant' you ?
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Peace,
Yes and no, as tahasanun refers to a lot more then just unchastity...... So yes, you can translate it like that, but is it the best translation? I think not.....
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Peace,
Yes and no, as tahasanun refers to a lot more then just unchastity...... So yes, you can translate it like that, but is it the best translation? I think not.....
Is tahasanun used in the meaning of "everyhting that goes beyond the justice of a women's right" elsewhere in the quran ?
I think not... -
Peace Arnold,
My wife and I had written the following article sometime back
http//www.free-minds.org/malak.htm
Your idea of "mohsanat" meaning "independent" is very interesting and it is in line with the finding of it meaning "self-protected".
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam,
I can?t read this article,
Maybe it is replaced ?
Please help -
tahassun has nohing to do with chastity nor the root H-S-n is anything to do with chastity, escept where contrived interpretations or tranlations are made so that chasitty is turned into a female specialty and not preseved as virtue for everyone of any sex. The terms for chastity in Qur'an ar Hafadha farj, not ahsana. e all know in almot all civilisations chastity is turned into a feminine specialty. The Qur'an of course could nto be left alone, it had to be corrected so that it too made chastity a femine extra duty that is females must be chaste ot like men, but take off some of the burden of chastity of them and put it on the women themselves. The total amount f chastity is the same, but it is distributed unevenly women 99 per cnet and men 1%, if they choose.
Salaam
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tahassun has nohing to do with chastity nor the root H-S-n is anything to do with chastity, escept where contrived interpretations or tranlations are made so that chasitty is turned into a female specialty and not preseved as virtue for everyone of any sex. The terms for chastity in Qur'an ar Hafadha farj, not ahsana. e all know in almot all civilisations chastity is turned into a feminine specialty. The Qur'an of course could nto be left alone, it had to be corrected so that it too made chastity a femine extra duty that is females must be chaste ot like men, but take off some of the burden of chastity of them and put it on the women themselves. The total amount f chastity is the same, but it is distributed unevenly women 99 per cnet and men 1%, if they choose.
Salaam
Right.
And mention about she (Syeda Maryam the truthful) who guarded her pudendum- chastity; thus remained virgin in life ?
And of Maryam, daughter of Imr'aan, who guarded her pudendum- chastity; thus remained virgin in life .......
Thereby, when they (maid servants) are given in wedlock, thereat, if they have committed "fahishatin" - some illicit sexual activity , half of that punishment which is prescribed by Penal code of society in respect of such offences in respect of independent family women, shall be liable against them.
...........When a dependent - maid servant is wed she becomes protected by her husband.
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Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?n
a) Total occurrences 96
b) No of constructions 51
It occurs in 89 Ayahs in 41 Sura
Nouns 13' Recurrence 31; Verbs 38 Recurrence 65
Ibn Faris stated
( ة
.
That it signifies firstly the demand, seeking a thing/object; and secondly it signifies some sort of corruption, degeneration, transgression. perversion, immorality, and turpitude.
Lane Lexicon He sought; sought for, or after; sought, desired, or endeavoured, to find, and take,
Semantic domain Emotion
Sub field Seeking
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(12.htm