Veil in Saudi Arabia-- Do You Find This Interesting?

KGB

I went to Saudi Arabia for Umra and Haj with my parents and my experience of Saudi people is very positive. Saudis always were friendly modest courteous kind. I met some very rich Saudi Sheikhs who had the same qualities money did not get into their heads.

Visited Ciaro and Alexenderia people again very nice friendly. All the countries I visited have very good friendly experiences.

TAJ

Peace NP, and All,

As Salaam Alaikum,

One of my favorite hobbies is to look at pictures. I love looking at them (if you have any good sites that feature pictures, please give me the link)!

Well I especially like to look at pictures of Muslims from around the world, especially Muslimahs.

Today I was flipping through pictures and something came across my mind, that I had actually thought about years ago because I often like to look at the same pictures after months of not seeing them...

While clicking through pics of women in Saudi Arabia I noticed something (again)....

While the women in the city cover completely, the bedouin women cover everything, including their face, except for their hair--- (click the links before)

http//www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/womenbehindtheveil/
http//www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/womenbehindtheveil/photo5.html

Now you would think that if a woman covered her face, that she obviously would cover her hair aswell, but this isn't the case for the bedouins.

Would anyone have any idea on why they do not deam it neccassary to cover their hair?

I can recall seeing another picture of a bedouin and this was the sme case--covered body, covered face, but uncovered hair.

well that's it.
cya

The face, not the hair, is what reveals the identity. So no one would be able to know the lady in the pic except her close family. Some women learn to drive trucks because of necessity,, boys learn driving from the early age of ten.

This Burqa3 (this black veil on her face. It has other names and different looks in other Arabian areas) is really part of the women's wear here.. ..and bedouin women wear it all the time even inside their own homes, even with only women around them, as if it was part of their faces...this is very normal here. But they would lift it up for seconds when kissing in greetings. This burqa3 keeps their faces feeling beautifully soft and very young looking (the best sunscreen!)

viartualeye

Hello,

For those people who can understand Urdu

Part I
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6364792184556584276&q=islam+woman+israr

Part II
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8453932216664643035&q=islam+woman+israr

Part III
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1786501075843892485&q=islam+woman+israr

Please watch completely and then you may comment on it also.

VE

arnoldyasin

Peace,

A quotian from the book, The nature of the Book, by Dr.Shahroor.

"?And tell the believing women to

Subdue their eyes, and
Keep their private area chaste <Farj>.
They shall not expose their <Zeenatuhun>, except that which is exposed. They shall place their cover on their <Juyoobuhun>, and shall not expose their <Zeentauhun> except to their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters,
<Nisauhun>,
<Ma Malakat Aymanuhun> or
Workers who do not have sexual interest, or
The children who do not yet understand women?s private parts.
8 They shall not strike their feet so it is known what they hide from their <Zeenatuhun>.
All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.? (24/31)
This command has also come down in 24/30 to address the male believers that they should subdue their gaze, and in 24/31 for the female believers that they do the same.
This is the first line of defense for both males and females from wanting and this would imply in today?s society to people we see in the street or even on TV, for the believers will not stare at sights which would make them uncomfortable (if the roles were reversed) but should exercise judgment.
Maintain the chastity has also come before this verse in 24/30 to address the believing men that they should maintain their chastity. The word <Farj> is directly related to the ?private area? or ?genitals? of both the man and the woman. The command in this verse is that women (and men in the previous verse) should PROTECT and CONCEAL their ?private area?.
The implications of this word go beyond merely the exposure of ones private area, but also to the level that protection involves not letting anyone touch or come near. Thus the idea of ?foreplay? and touching or ?oral sex? is AUTOMATICALLY rejected by the Quran for all those who are unmarried and no excuses are given.
The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

The area of the head (mouth, ears, nose) as well as the feet and hands all fall under the EXCEPTION to being covered which is mentioned as <Ma Zahar> in the same verse. <Ma Zahar> is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding <Zahar> from the body and therefore are exempt from having their <Zeena> which is the <Jayb> from being covered.
It is worth noting that a woman's stomach and back are NOT part of the <Zeena> and can be revealed if one wished to do so with no implications of "Right" or "Wrong".
It is upto the believing women to ensure that all these areas known as <Zeena> are covered and not revealed to anyone except 1. Husband, 2. Father, 3. Husband?s Father, 4. Son, 5. Husband?s Son, 6. Brother, 7. Brother?s Son, 8. Sister?s Son.
Some people may think that this allows a woman to appear entirely naked in front of the above list. The answer to that is ?yes?, it is not from the Halal or Haram if this happens, but it will be modesty and cultural norms that make this concept peculiar.

It is CRITICAL to note that the list of men to whom a woman can reveal her <Zeena> does NOT include her (Uncle, Son from Suckling, Brother from Suckling, Mother?s Husband, Daughter?s Husband and Sister?s Husband) EVEN THOUGHT these people are "Mahram's" whom she is forbidden from marrying (see sura # 4 for the full "Mahram" list).
This new understanding implies that some men may still have a sexual drive or desire for a woman even though they are her "Mahram's" which she is forbidden from marrying. Thus she is NOT to reveal her <Zeena> in their presence.

This understanding of <Zeena> will force most Fiqh scholars to re-examine their understanding that the <Zeena> is merely ornaments or make-up, but it is something much more which only a limited few are allowed to see (or else the Mahram?s in Sura # 4 must never see a woman if she has make-up or jewelry on).
4) The next word for those who may see a woman?s <Zeena> is described by the word <NISAUHUN>.
This word has been mistakenly understood to be ?women?, whereas the word <Nisa?a> can also be used for ?those who came later? <Nasee?a>. This word covers all those who come later on such as Son?s Son, Grandchildren, Son?s, Son of Brother, Son?s Son of Sister (i.e. all those who come from the seed of the people allowed to see the woman?s Zeena).
5) <Ma Malakat Aimanukum> (to be dealt with separately)
6) <Ghayr Ulu Al-Arab?a Min Al-Rijal>, this can be used to describe all men who do not have any interest in sexual conduct with the woman (such as a doctor who is giving her birth).
7) Children who do not yet understand the meaning of a woman?s private parts.
8 Striking their feet to reveal their <hidden Zeena>. This is referring to the <Zeena> which we have already identified as all the <Jayb's> with the exception of that which is is on the limbs "Protruding Zeena". This "hidden Zeena" can only be revealed through the striking of the feet if it were used to describe any form of dancing for a woman that causes the revealment of her ?hidden? bodyparts (breast, inner-thighs, and armpits). Such dancing can be found in what is today called ?exotic dancing?, ?belly dancing? and "striptease dancing?.

This is the BEAR MINIMUM that GOD has ORDERED the believing women to abide by with no repercussions or consequences in the hereafter. As for those who wish to have more INSTRUCTIONS as to what is suitable dress code, they do not have to look far
"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being harmed. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.? (33/59)
The instructions above is for the believing women who wish to avoid harm (either social or otherwise) which is caused if they were not fully clothed and may be treated with disrespect or as women who do not abide by GOD?s moral laws (i.e. prostitutes).
It is our duty as believers in the Book to ensure that GOD?s commands and instructions are understood so they may be implemented by people of all places and all times."

I believe this is clear enough.....

The veil can be found all over the world. In Arabia itself it had and has multiple backgrounds, as some people already gave above. A lot of things are done by women themselves and has nothing to do with religion or not. That the rule became religious law in Islam, was mostly because of the rule of the Jews and Christians. For orthodox Jews, it is law that women must not show their real hair, not even to their husbands. And for Christians it is given in the New-testament that women always should cover their hair if they went to congregations or when they prayed. Also it was a custom with the Persian elite that their women were covered, that is also where the black dress came from that are worn mostly in Iran and by strict traditionalists. Through these influences, it became law, instead of only local custom. And they tried to make it like the Quran ordered it, which is certainly not so.

My girlfriend weares a headcovering, but in a beautifull way. It makes her look like a princess i always say to her. She knows it is not law in Islam, but she has grown up with it, and so she is used to it. So she decides for herself if she weares it or not. So, with her it is not because of religion, but because of custom she weares it. The reasons given above in several posts, are real good reasons why the bedouin women dress like they do, 1.for protection against the sun. 2.because it hides certain features and exposes only what they want you to see. 3.because of men's opinion on women sexual spirit and their no-self-control. 4. it is custom. So these reasons are all seperated from religion, and are all based on custom and local ideas.

Peace

TAJ

Peace S2S,

If you think about it, whats the one thing most women dont like about their face... it's usually the nose. Either too small, too big, crooked, etc etc. So various bedouins of different Arab regions have come up with nifty ways of hiding the nose while adding more emphasis on the eyes... which is an area most Arab women like about themselves anyway. and it adds more lift to the cheeks, etc etc. So really it's just like make-up for western women LOL

I never saw or heard of a woman who would choose a niqab, burqa3, ba66oolah, etc..in order to cover her nose and accentuate her eyes! As a matter of fact I never met a veiled woman who thinks that she is not beautiful. And they are beautiful by all means, without any make up except of course the Arabian black kohl. And not only beautiful but also very joyous and spontaneous and have no inhibitions or worries whatsoever.. Hakuna matata )

NoProgressive

peace noprogressive and sugar,

is covering for women only in islam? my mother always argued why can't guys cover since the eyesight for men and women is the same.

is covering the best way to maintain your chastity(for both men and women)...

i heard that men cover to in soudi arabia according to traditions and it is part of sunnah i have always wondered why the men muslims in other part of the world do not follow this sunnah and women does.

perhaps it is in surah noor(surah 24)

peace, rifat

What? I don't understand what you are saying. We're not discussing the issue of men covering or not, I'd like to know what is the reason behind this form of dress for the women in bedouin tribes.

salaam

NoProgressive

As SAlaam Aliakum Ik,

there's not a single verse in the quran that mentions 'cover your hair' or 'cover your head' Just whatever it takes so you can look righteous. It's God's mercy that no specific code of dress is there, because different cultures have different meanings of 'righteous'

But it mentions "khimar", and then later goes and mentions "jilbab"... obviously two different articles of clothing with different purposes.

And in the USA there is not dress code for "righteous"

unknownuser

Peace TAJ

Well that was my point exactly. They aren't wearing a niqab or a burka. If you look at the photo NoProgressive posted of the bedouin covering her face but NOT her hair, you'd see my point. It has NOTHING to do with Islamc doctrine at all. Niqab means you're covering everything but the eyes or one eye even. These bedouin ladies don't wear niqab. NoProgressive found it interesting that they cover the face and don't cover the hair. My explanation was an anthropological one based on the book I read in college. You could research it yourself and find the various face coverings various bedouin tribes have devised as well as Egyptian women in olden days. They all cover the same areas with different forms, some even use a metal mask that covers only the nose and comes around the cheeks. In fact, the bedouin women of Oman don't even take off their face covering in front of their husbands. They only take it off in front of other women and eunuchs.

I didn't mention hijab-wearing women at all, in fact I specifically stated that I'm not talking about the average Arab Muslim woman who covers herself. I have respect for any woman who chooses to wear hijab to proclaim her modesty, as long as it's not a hypocrtical stance. I myself wouldn't choose that form of modesty for my own reasons but respect anyone who does choose so.
SALAM

TAJ

Peace S2S,

I didn't mention hijab-wearing women at all, in fact I specifically stated that I'm not talking about the average Arab Muslim woman who covers herself. I have respect for any woman who chooses to wear hijab to proclaim her modesty, as long as it's not a hypocrtical stance. I myself wouldn't choose that form of modesty for my own reasons but respect anyone who does choose so.

But I did not mention hijab-wearing women in my post! I did not go near that at all.
I was only responding to what you mentioned earlier here is the quote

So various bedouins of different Arab regions have come up with nifty ways of hiding the nose while adding more emphasis on the eyes... which is an area most Arab women like about themselves anyway. and it adds more lift to the cheeks, etc etc. So really it's just like make-up for western women LOL

In my response to you I wrote that I never met a woman or heard of one who would use anything on her face for the purpose of "hiding her nose while adding emphasis on the eyes"! Especially when there is nothing not beautiful with their noses. Have you met any woman who does that for that purpose?

unknownuser

Salam Taj
So how many bedouins have YOU met?
Because I haven't met any I just read about them ...

NoProgressive

As Salaam Alaikum TAJ,

In my response to you I wrote that I never met a woman or heard of one who would use anything on her face for the purpose of "hiding her nose while adding emphasis on the eyes"! Especially when there is nothing not beautiful with their noses. Have you met any woman who does that for that purpose?

Let's remember that this is Arabian culture, not another. It is no myth that Arabs have been known for the covering of their face. Therefore while it may be something taboo in some places, it may very well be another everday accesory in the deserts of Arabia.

Come on, plenty of us have this illusion of sex when it comes to women covering their faces.

salaam

TAJ

Salam S2S,

Salam Taj
So how many bedouins have YOU met?
Because I haven't met any I just read about them ...

I am one of them, originally!

warda

Peace Arnoldyasin,

A quotian from the book, The nature of the Book, by Dr.Shahroor.

Is there finally an english translation of the book by Dr. Mohammed Shahrour which is in Arabic Al Kitab wa Al Quran? Or is it another book by him? Do you know where to purchase it from?

Thanks for answering and regards
warda

TAJ

Peace Arnold,

The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

The area of the head (mouth, ears, nose) as well as the feet and hands all fall under the EXCEPTION to being covered which is mentioned as <Ma Zahar> in the same verse. <Ma Zahar> is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding <Zahar> from the body and therefore are exempt from having their <Zeena> which is the <Jayb> from being covered.
It is worth noting that a woman's stomach and back are NOT part of the <Zeena> and can be revealed if one wished to do so with no implications of "Right" or "Wrong".
It is upto the believing women to ensure that all these areas known as <Zeena> are covered and not revealed to anyone except 1. Husband, 2. Father, 3. Husband?s Father, 4. Son, 5. Husband?s Son, 6. Brother, 7. Brother?s Son, 8. Sister?s Son.
Some people may think that this allows a woman to appear entirely naked in front of the above list. The answer to that is ?yes?, it is not from the Halal or Haram if this happens, but it will be modesty and cultural norms that make this concept peculiar.

It is CRITICAL to note that the list of men to whom a woman can reveal her <Zeena> does NOT include her (Uncle, Son from Suckling, Brother from Suckling, Mother?s Husband, Daughter?s Husband and Sister?s Husband) EVEN THOUGHT these people are "Mahram's" whom she is forbidden from marrying (see sura # 4 for the full "Mahram" list).
This new understanding implies that some men may still have a sexual drive or desire for a woman even though they are her "Mahram's" which she is forbidden from marrying. Thus she is NOT to reveal her <Zeena> in their presence.

This understanding of <Zeena> will force most Fiqh scholars to re-examine their understanding that the <Zeena> is merely ornaments or make-up, but it is something much more which only a limited few are allowed to see (or else the Mahram?s in Sura # 4 must never see a woman if she has make-up or jewelry on).
4) The next word for those who may see a woman?s <Zeena> is described by the word <NISAUHUN>.
This word has been mistakenly understood to be ?women?, whereas the word <Nisa?a> can also be used for ?those who came later? <Nasee?a>. This word covers all those who come later on such as Son?s Son, Grandchildren, Son?s, Son of Brother, Son?s Son of Sister (i.e. all those who come from the seed of the people allowed to see the woman?s Zeena).

Is that quote from Sha7roor's book, or is it your understanding?

unknownuser

Salam Taj
WOW you're a bedouin! Which tribe? Was it easy for your family to get a passport from your original country?

TAJ

Peace S2S,

We are settlers now, have been for a looong time. We don't live in tents but in houses built with concrete! However, some of the traditions remain.

TAJ

As Salaam Alaikum NP

As Salaam Alaikum TAJ,

In my response to you I wrote that I never met a woman or heard of one who would use anything on her face for the purpose of "hiding her nose while adding emphasis on the eyes"! Especially when there is nothing not beautiful with their noses. Have you met any woman who does that for that purpose?

Let's remember that this is Arabian culture, not another. It is no myth that Arabs have been known for the covering of their face. Therefore while it may be something taboo in some places, it may very well be another everday accesory in the deserts of Arabia.

Come on, plenty of us have this illusion of sex when it comes to women covering their faces.

salaam

I think that the burqa3, niqab, etc.. was originally (I mean something like thousands of years ago) invented for environmental reasons,, to protect the face from the sand storms and the generally harsh weather here especially with lack of water.
Another big reason, I think, is because of the bad way (most) men here view women, and so they make their women cover their faces in order not to be recognized by other men, so to conceal their identity,, as they cannot stand that another man is looking at their women (their possession). It is rigidity and possessiveness and not for religion reasons. Also many men think that having a daughter, a girl born to them is a disgrace they would rather hide.. so it is as if when the girl is not seen (her face as identity is not showing) then she does not exist.

TAJ

Peace Arnold,

The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

The area of the head (mouth, ears, nose) as well as the feet and hands all fall under the EXCEPTION to being covered which is mentioned as <Ma Zahar> in the same verse. <Ma Zahar> is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding <Zahar> from the body and therefore are exempt from having their <Zeena> which is the <Jayb> from being covered.
It is worth noting that a woman's stomach and back are NOT part of the <Zeena> and can be revealed if one wished to do so with no implications of "Right" or "Wrong".
It is upto the believing women to ensure that all these areas known as <Zeena> are covered and not revealed to anyone except 1. Husband, 2. Father, 3. Husband?s Father, 4. Son, 5. Husband?s Son, 6. Brother, 7. Brother?s Son, 8. Sister?s Son.
Some people may think that this allows a woman to appear entirely naked in front of the above list. The answer to that is ?yes?, it is not from the Halal or Haram if this happens, but it will be modesty and cultural norms that make this concept peculiar.

It is CRITICAL to note that the list of men to whom a woman can reveal her <Zeena> does NOT include her (Uncle, Son from Suckling, Brother from Suckling, Mother?s Husband, Daughter?s Husband and Sister?s Husband) EVEN THOUGHT these people are "Mahram's" whom she is forbidden from marrying (see sura # 4 for the full "Mahram" list).
This new understanding implies that some men may still have a sexual drive or desire for a woman even though they are her "Mahram's" which she is forbidden from marrying. Thus she is NOT to reveal her <Zeena> in their presence.

This understanding of <Zeena> will force most Fiqh scholars to re-examine their understanding that the <Zeena> is merely ornaments or make-up, but it is something much more which only a limited few are allowed to see (or else the Mahram?s in Sura # 4 must never see a woman if she has make-up or jewelry on).
4) The next word for those who may see a woman?s <Zeena> is described by the word <NISAUHUN>.
This word has been mistakenly understood to be ?women?, whereas the word <Nisa?a> can also be used for ?those who came later? <Nasee?a>. This word covers all those who come later on such as Son?s Son, Grandchildren, Son?s, Son of Brother, Son?s Son of Sister (i.e. all those who come from the seed of the people allowed to see the woman?s Zeena).

Is that quote from Sha7roor's book, or is it your understanding?

unknownuser

Sha7roor's book rotfl

would that be mister Sha7roor? O0

I don't know, but he looks like him (they both have the same hair cut)

unknownuser

It seems Sha7roor is a real person

sorry Taj, i thought it was a good joke by you, LOL