Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam?

unknownuser

"Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam?"

Excellent question!!! THINK ABOUT THIS ONE HARD BECAUSE I'M GOING TO HAUNT YOU ON THIS ONE TILL YOU SWEAT YOUR NERVES OUT.

First Question Who was Muhammad?

Second Question Was it Muhammad or Ahmed?

Third Question If both are definitions, then WHO (the person by name) brought about the "orginal" message of Quran?

Fourth Question If Muhammad and Ahmed are proper names, then which one propagated the true message, Muhammad or Ahmed? Note Ahmed is mentioned in pervious scripture, Muhammad is not. Think hard on this one!!!

Fifth Question The conspiracy (please, no offense meant here. just concerns). Could it be possible that Ahmed, the real and true prophet was abandoned, desecrated or killed and Muhammad .

Sixth Question How was Quran compiled and revamped together and by whom in acutality and truth, as we have it today? And WHY? What's your evidence and how does it hold TRUE? Hint read historical evidence or analysis.

Seventh Question Why Muhammad destroyed all stone idols (360+) and left alone the biggest and 'sacred' one of all, the Kaaba, revered till today with all rituals intact?

Perhaps there are other questions but before even these pertinent questions are thoroughly, percisely and truthfully answered, we cannot move any further, let alone its message.

Al_Khidr

As Salaamu Alaykum Tanveermd

Thanks brother for welcoming me to the forum, I?m new here and I think this is one of the best discussion boards that I?ve came across. Now let me point out something that you overlooked in terms of my understanding of the word ?Deen?. If you would have read my article more critically, you would then realize that I am aware that the word ?Deen? is translated as a ?way of life?, ?prescribed way of life?. Sometimes when people translate, they use word(s) that is commonly known for the average person, so that is why many people translate the word ?Deen? as ?religion?, not because I nor anybody lacks knowledge pertaining to this word ?Deen?. There are many people who have deep knowledge in Arabic and translate the word ?Deen? as religion, even when they know that ?Deen? again is ?A Way Of Life?. The mistranslation by Yusuf Ali was something that was way off point, with a diabolical scheme (behind it) to support their false sectarian school of thought, that I pointed out. Thus, your comparison with that and my self was like comparing apples and watermelons, which has nothing to do with each other; no connection, simply put, pointless. Now back to my point, again you have to translate in a way sometimes to make sense for the average person. Now I will highlight a quote from my article that I posted entitled ?Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam??

?Prophet Muhammad of Arabia COMPLETED Deen of Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life).?

Tanveermd, noticed that I used the phrase, ?Deen of Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life)". That alone Tanveermd, should have raised your awareness to let you know that I clearly understand the word ?Deen? and not just someone who reduces it to ?religion?. Sometimes it helps to get in the head of the author or the one behind the pen. So I am in agreement with you in regards to the word ?Deen?. And also by the way I worded things in the article that I post-hopefully one can make the association from ?religion? to ?prescribed way of life? and not just be stuck on ?religion?. Tanveermd, I do not know if you read my response to Alpha97 pertaining to this article, but if not, I will highlight a quote to further illustrate my point

?Allah only revealed ONE RELIGION or WAY OF LIFE which is described as DEEN. Deen of Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life) is Islaam.?

Again Tanveermd, this is further evidence from my quotes to illustrate that I have full knowledge and understanding of the word ?Deen?. Thus I am not one Muslim who thinks ?Deen? is just ?religion?. The truth of the matter is ?religion? is man-made, Allah revealed a ?Prescribed Way of Life?, known as Islaam. But thanks again Tanveermd for pointing that out because it gave me a chance to further explain myself just incase there was some misunderstanding by you or any body else, Mashallah.

?It is apparent that you do not uphold the unverifiable hearsays and rumors known as "hadeeth" falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad. So it is surprising where you get the idea of "5 pillars" of islam.?

Tanveeermd, you are correct, I do not follow Satanic innovations called hadiyth and neither do I declare the false Shahaada that Sunni Muslims declare with Muhammad?s name in the same dominion with Allah. I and many other Muslims alike use the common notion 5 Pillars of Faith, as a means to explain Islaam in a nutshell, not Islaam in its completeness or its entirety. The notion ?5 Pillars of Faith? was never designed to explain all the laws and commandments within the Holy Qur?aan, again it is useful to explain Islaam in a nutshell and especially with those who are studying Islaam or addressing comparative religion, etc. etc. Sometimes when we address Islaam, we use words that are not in Al Qur?aan, even Muslim who follow Qur?aan ALONE such as myself and you, etc. An example is the term ?wudu?. Note that word is not in the Qur?aan, but many of us use it to describe ?ablution? when we are talking with others or addressing subjects on Islaam. We as Muslims should not look at things from a narrow or illogical perspective. We should dwell in root knowledge and not branch knowledge, if you understand where I?m coming from?

Salaam

Salaamun alaikum Al Khidr,

Thank you for sharing your understanding and welcome to the forum. I agree with most of your understanding and would like to draw your attention to some discrepancies I noticed in your posts

The Sunni?s false doctrine is not founded in Al Qur?aan, so they have to mistranslate the Qur?aan to support their sectarian schools of thought. Below is Yusuf Ali?s mistranslation of that very same verse

Qur?aan 16123
So We have taught thee the inspired (message), ?follow the ways of Abraham the true in Faith, and he joined not gods with Allah.

Mistranslation by Yusuf Ali

The underlined word ?ways? in Yusuf Ali?s so-called English translation has been purposely mistranslated. The Arabic word there is ?Milla? and in English it means ?religion? NOT ?way?. Remember the Sunni Muslims are known to translate the Arabic word ?sunna (sunnah)? as ?way? but now they mysteriously translate Milla as way when it should be translated as ?religion?.

Here you draw our attention to the mistranslation of "milla" by Yusuf Ali but in the translation of the following verses you mistranslate "deen" as "religion"

Qur?aan 319
The only religion approved by Allah is Islaam. Those who received the scripture dispute this fact, knowingly. This is due to jealousy on their part. For those who reject Allah?s revelations, Allah is most strict in reckoning.

Qur?aan 385
Anyone who accepts other than Islaam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.

Qur?aan 4213-14
13. He has prescribed for you the SAME religion, which He decreed on Noah, and what We have sent by inspired to you, and what We decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it.? The idol worshippers will resent what you invite them to do. Allah redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself everyone who submits in peace.
14. Ironically, they broke up into sects-only after the knowledge had come to them-due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Sustainer to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, these later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.

When you expose someone's mistranslation, you yourself should not mistranslate, just my humble advice. "Deen" is properly translated as "prescribed way of life" or "system" or "law".

All the 5 Pillars of Faith existed before Muhammad.

It is apparent that you do not uphold the unverifiable hearsays and rumors known as "hadeeth" falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad. So it is surprising where you get the idea of "5 pillars" of islam. Nowhere does Allah mention the term "5 pillars" in al-qur'aan. That is just excess baggage from the sectarian notion of islam and is pure conjecture, unsupported by Allah's words. In fact one of the so called "5 pillars" which is "hajj" is supposed to be for entire mankind according to al-qur'aan, and not just for muslims or mumins.

2227 And permit/respond to MANKIND with al-hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.

Please see the article at the following link on the 5 pillar myth

http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/pillars.htm

Regards,

Tanveer

Al_Khidr

Salam Tanveer

in your reply to Bro al Khidr you quoted him as saying " The 5 Pillars of faith existed before Muhammad" , In fact , If you care to read his Post again , you wil find that he never said 'the 5 Pillars of Islam ' but rather "the 5 Pillars OF faith " of which I am sure you know about i.e Believe in God, The malaikat, The Scriptures , The Messengers and The Day of Judment.

There are at least 3 Verses in The Qur?n which Mention this Clearly so called 5 Pillars of Iman . However , you are right in respect of "The 5 Pillars of Islam" ...They are not in The Qur?n. It just goes to show how easy It is to find Faults in Other People

Peace and Cheers

almarh0m

"He who Created me , It is He who Guide me".

Alhamdulillah for the enlightenment. Tanveermd equally lacked observation pertaining to my understanding of the word "Deen". I already posted a response to his lack of observation and critical analysis.

unknownuser

Peace Al Khidr

can you please explain to me these verse then

And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam.
]

(12)

No associate has He; and this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.

(163)

Clearly the verses say Mohammad was the first Muslim

Thanks

Al_Khidr

Peace Al Khidr

can you please explain to me these verse then

And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam.
]

(12)

No associate has He; and this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who submit.

(163)

Clearly the verses say Mohammad was the first Muslim

Thanks

Salaam Ahmed Bahgat

You have quoted the following two verses (6163 & 3912) and came to the conclusion that Muhammad was the FIRST Muslim. Let?s put things in their proper context or perspective. The Arabic word (awwal) can be defined as first, utmost, foremost, most important, principle, main part, etc. etc. etc. but you should pay attention to the context in which the word is being used, for example lets take a look at Qur?aan 6163 and move a few verses up to verse 161, which says

?Say, My Lord has guided me in a straight path the perfect religion of Abraham (Milla Ibrahiym), the upright (hanifan). He never was an idol worshipper.? (6161)

This verse clearly states that Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham, so therefore Muhammad could not be the first Muslim in history. Remember Abraham came before Muhammad. The context of the Arabic word here (awwal), could simply mean that he was one of the first in terms of his immediate generation or group at that time, but not the first in history and if that was the case then you will not find verses in the Qur?aan that instructs Muhammad to follow the religion of Abraham, again who came before Muhammad. This is only common sense. The same logic also follows the other verse that you quoted (3912). Below is another verse that shatters your conclusion of Muhammad being the first Muslim, when the Qur?aan clearly states that it was Abraham who names us Muslims in the Qur?aan as well as previous revelations

Qur?aan 2278
And strive for the cause of Allah as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and placed no hardship on you in practicing your way of life-it is the religion of your father Abraham. It is he who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation). Thus, the Messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. You shall observe the salaat, give the zakaat, and hold fast to Allah; He is your Protector, the best Protector and the best Supporter.

Read the verse below, Isa (Jesus) and his disciples were a Muslims and they came before Muhammad

Qur?aan 5111
Recall that I inspired the disciples ?You shall believe in Me and My Messenger.? They said, ?We have believed, and bear witness that we are Muslims.??

Read the verse below for further evidence that proves that Muhammad was not the first Muslim. The verse below clearly says that Allay has prescribed the same religion on the Prophets/Messengers, which we know is Islaam and that verse also list them (the Prophets/Messengers) by name and they came before Muhammad, which also proves that Muhammad is not the first Muslim nor the first one to bring us Islaam

Qur?aan 4213-14
13. He has prescribed for you the SAME religion, which He decreed on Noah, and what We have sent by inspired to you, and what We decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it.? The idol worshippers will resent what you invite them to do. Allah redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself everyone who submits in peace.
14. Ironically, they broke up into sects-only after the knowledge had come to them-due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Sustainer to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, these later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.

I would like to share three translations with you to compare to your translation

Qur?aan 3912
?And I was commanded to be the utmost submitter.?

Translated by Rashad Khalifa

Qur?aan 3912
?And I have orders to be the foremost among those who surrender themselves (to His will).?

Translated by Amatul Rahman Omar & Abdul Mannan Omar

Qur?aan 3912
And I am bidden to be foremost among those who surrender themselves unto God.?

Translated by Muhammad Asad

Notice Ahmed Bahgat in their translation they used ?utmost and foremost? and not "first". But nevertheless, I have clearly proven using Qur?aan ALONE that Muhammad was not the first to be a Muslim.
I would like to close with this verse to give you something to ponder on because it states that Moses was the first to believe and Moses was also a Muslim. Are we to interpret that the following verse to say that Moses was the first Muslim??

Qur'aan 7143
When Moses came at our appointed tiime, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me." Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the first to believe."

Ahmed Bahgat the "FIRST" is not first in time but most zealous in faith; Submitting their will to the will of Allah in Peace. It has the intensive and not comparitive meaning of time...

Salaam and thanks brother for your post.

unknownuser

Salam brother Al Khidr

Mate, the many different english meanings has no merit to raise an argument against the Arabic Quran and its Arabic words, not that I'm disputing the Mohammad was not folllowing Melatu Ibrahim, what I'm arguing is this

The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more, and surely Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran, and that full on islam is based on Melatu Ibrahim but far more than what was required back

Regarding Moses argument and his saying that he was the first of the believers, OF COURSE HE WAS THE FIRST TO PRACTICALLY BELIEVE THAT ALLAH CAN'T BE SEEN

Peace

Elke

Peace ,

even if the only sens is (or was) FIRST, what is the problem ?

he was the FIRST in HIS community

quran clearly mentions that abraham was the one that named "us" muslims and that we follow the millat ibrahim, so there is IMO no new religion, but the same message given to a people that had not received it yet

lk

unknownuser

Peace all,

Welcome to the forum brother almarh0m.

in your reply to Bro al Khidr you quoted him as saying " The 5 Pillars of faith existed before Muhammad" , In fact , If you care to read his Post again , you wil find that he never said 'the 5 Pillars of Islam ' but rather "the 5 Pillars OF faith " of which I am sure you know about i.e Believe in God, The malaikat, The Scriptures , The Messengers and The Day of Judment.

There are at least 3 Verses in The Qur?n which Mention this Clearly so called 5 Pillars of Iman . However , you are right in respect of "The 5 Pillars of Islam" ...They are not in The Qur?n. It just goes to show how easy It is to find Faults in Other People

There is no such thing as "5 pillars" of FAITH according to al-qur'aan also. That is another excess baggage from the sectarian notions of islam and is unsupportd by Allah's words. If you gather all the verses of al-qur'aan describing the mumineen, you will notice there are more than 5 criteria.

According to al-qur'aan the mumineen are the following

They have faith in Allah & His messenger

"Mu'mins (faithful) are those who have faith in Allah and His messenger?" (4915)

This is much more than simply acknowledging One GOD, this is about establishing belief and faith in the heart and accepting GOD's messenger by taking on the responsibility of accepting the Book.

They attain the status of having no doubt

"?and attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever?" (4915)

They are faithful in what has been revealed, and its words only grants them more faith.

They strive with their money and lives

"?and strive with their money and their lives in the cause of GOD. These are the truthful ones." (4915)

Having faith is just the '1st-step' to their journey?they are ones who put their money where their mouth is and strive towards GOD with their money and lives.

Their hearts tremble when Allah is mentioned

"The true faithful are those whose hearts tremble when Allah is mentioned?" (82)

Their faith is strengthened by hearing Allah's revelations

"?and when His revelations are recited to them, their faith is strengthened?" (82)

They trust in their Lord

"?and they trust in their Lord." (82)

They uphold the salat

"They uphold the salat?" (83)

Due to the journey that these people have undertaken, more spiritual linking with GOD is required through the method of establishing the 'Salaat' and constantly reciting the words and commands of the Lord.

They give to charity

"?and from our provisions to them, they give to charity." (83)

They are also givers to charity in order to attain the 'purification/Zakat' that can cleanse the soul and perfect the journey towards GOD.

Result

"Such are TRULY THE FAITHFUL. They attain high ranks at their Lord, as well as forgiveness and a generous provision." (84)

They also fast

"O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you perhaps you may be righteous." (2183)

Mumineen are also required to fast.

So actually salat and charity and fasting are requirements for iman or being mumin according to al-qur'aan. As you can clearly see there are more than 5 criteria for iman or being a mumin according to al-qur'aan.

In any case, nowhere Allah mentions the term "5 pillars of FAITH" in al-qur'aan, and if you count the total criteria for being a mumin it is more than 5.

Regards,

Tanveer

unknownuser

Peace Al Khidr,

I was already aware that you translated "deen" as "way of life" in your notes, but all I was requesting was to be consistent with the translation everywhere, otherwise it leads to confusion. There is NO JUSTIFICATION of mistranslating Allah's words anytime and anywhere, not even once. My humble advice is to be very careful when translating Allah's words ALL THE TIME.

Secondly there is no justification to use the term "5 pillars", as the fundamental aspects of islam are much more than 5, including the prohibitions. The basic criteria is monotheism, followed by many prohibitions and good deeds

Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you

You shall not set up idols besides Him.
You shall honor your parents.
You shall not kill your unborn children from fear of poverty-We provide for you and for them.
You shall not commit gross sins, publicly or privately.
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand.
You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity.
You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means.
You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives.
You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed. (6151-152)

As you can see the basic elements are more than 5. There are other basic prohibitions too including the prohibited foods and the prohibited marital relations, but I just wanted to illustrate that there is no such thing as "5 pillars".

We should refrain from using inaccurate terms to describe islam "in a nutshell", or using terms that are unsupported by Allah's words as that actually causes confusion in the minds of those who are trying to seek the truth and learn about islam, and is also pure conjecture.

I also dont want to go into more details as that is going outside the scope of the topic of this thread, but the website you quoted, in addition to containing many TRUTHS, also has many UNTRUTHS/FALSEHOODS in the form of excess baggage according to the fabricated sectarian notions of islam, which are totally unsupported by Allah's words. Considering your emphasis on seeking only the TRUTH, it is surprising for you to refer everyone to such a site which contains many apparent UNTRUTHS/FALSEHOODS also, unless you put a disclaimer in your post warning everyone of the above.

Regards,

Tanveer

Wakas

peace all,

A few small but important points

Similar phrase is used for other prophets, e.g.

Abraham did NOT call us Muslims, the "He" is referring to God.

Past prophets used the word "muslim"
If you ponder further on this point you may come to an interesting realisation that it is extremely unlikely they used the Arabic word "muslim" thus more likely used the equivalent in their language of the time, thus de-emphasising the title/noun "Muslim".

may give some a better idea as to when "islam" came about.

And here is a link
http//www.whysanity.net/monos/matrix3.html

Just because I thought some might find it appropriate.

Wakas

unknownuser

Peace all,

Regarding the word "awwala" meaning "foremost" in addition to "first", I would like to draw the attention of everyone to similar usage in English as in the phrase "first lady of USA". Here "first" does not mean the literal first wife of the first president but the "foremost" lady currently. Whether "awwala" means "first" or "foremost" in al-qur'aan is determined by the context.

I hope that helps.

Al_Khidr

Salam brother Al Khidr

Mate, the many different english meanings has no merit to raise an argument against the Arabic Quran and its Arabic words, not that I'm disputing the Mohammad was not folllowing Melatu Ibrahim, what I'm arguing is this

The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more, and surely Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran, and that full on islam is based on Melatu Ibrahim but far more than what was required back

Regarding Moses argument and his saying that he was the first of the believers, OF COURSE HE WAS THE FIRST TO PRACTICALLY BELIEVE THAT ALLAH CAN'T BE SEEN

Peace

Walaykum As Salaam Ahmed Bahgat

You missed critical points that I highlighted. I also came from Arabic to English. This is a mistake in Arabic that you have made when you said this, "The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more". If you look at Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary you will see the word (awwal) has the following meanings first, utmost, foremost, most important, principle, main part and more. awwal means more then just "first" You have made an attempt to comment on the Arabic,when its you that is lacking knowledge in Arabic. The translations that I pointed out in English that used the words "utmost/foremost" are also consistent with the Arabic definition of the word (awwal). Below is another fallacy statement that you made

"Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran"

This statement right here is definately innovations because you fail to produce any Qur'aanic evidence (Chapter & Verse) to prove your statement, so logically since you have failed to do that we have to dismiss your statement as an opinion. You ignore all the verses that I gave you which proves that Muhammad was not the first Muslim. I even quoted you a verse from the Qur'aan to illustrate that Isa (Jesus) was a Muslim and he came before Muhammad. Abraham who came before Muhammad practiced our Peaceful Way Of Life, long, long, long before Muhammad was ever thought of, thus Islaam was well established before Muhammad came on the scene, check out the link below

http//www.angelfire.com/realm3/shahaada/Abraham_Original_Messenger_Of_Islaam.html

To me you sound like the Sunni Muslim who idolize Muhammad. The Qur'aan even says that Abraham was appointed as Imam by Allah. You need to re-read all the verses that I gave you with an open mind. Islaam was well established before Muhammad and the fact that Muhammad was instructed to follow Milla Ibrahiym refutes your claim of him (Muhammad) being the first and now the first full Muslim as you state.

Al_Khidr

Walaykum As Salaam Ahmed Bahgat

You missed critical points that I highlighted. I also came from Arabic to English. This is a mistake in Arabic that you have made when you said this, "The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more". If you look at Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary you will see the word (awwal) has the following meanings first, utmost, foremost, most important, principle, main part and more. awwal means more then just "first" You have made an attempt to comment on the Arabic,when its you that is lacking knowledge in Arabic. The translations that I pointed out in English that used the words "utmost/foremost" are also consistent with the Arabic definition of the word (awwal). Below is another fallacy statement that you made

"Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran"

This statement right here is definately innovations because you fail to produce any Qur'aanic evidence (Chapter & Verse) to prove your statement, so logically since you have failed to do that we have to dismiss your statement as an opinion. You ignore all the verses that I gave you which proves that Muhammad was not the first Muslim. I even quoted you a verse from the Qur'aan to illustrate that Isa (Jesus) was a Muslim and he came before Muhammad. Abraham who came before Muhammad practiced our Peaceful Way Of Life, long, long, long before Muhammad was ever thought of, thus Islaam was well established before Muhammad came on the scene, check out the link below

http//www.angelfire.com/realm3/shahaada/Abraham_Original_Messenger_Of_Islaam.html

To me you sound like the Sunni Muslim who idolize Muhammad. The Qur'aan even says that Abraham was appointed as Imam by Allah. You need to re-read all the verses that I gave you with an open mind. Islaam was well established before Muhammad and the fact that Muhammad was instructed to follow Milla Ibrahiym refutes your claim of him (Muhammad) being the first and now the first full Muslim as you state.

Salam brother Al Khidr

Mate, the many different english meanings has no merit to raise an argument against the Arabic Quran and its Arabic words, not that I'm disputing the Mohammad was not folllowing Melatu Ibrahim, what I'm arguing is this

The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more, and surely Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran, and that full on islam is based on Melatu Ibrahim but far more than what was required back

Regarding Moses argument and his saying that he was the first of the believers, OF COURSE HE WAS THE FIRST TO PRACTICALLY BELIEVE THAT ALLAH CAN'T BE SEEN

Peace

Al_Khidr

Walaykum As Salaam Ahmed Bahgat

You missed critical points that I highlighted. I also came from Arabic to English. This is a mistake in Arabic that you have made when you said this, "The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more". If you look at Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary you will see the word (awwal) has the following meanings first, utmost, foremost, most important, principle, main part and more. awwal means more then just "first" You have made an attempt to comment on the Arabic,when its you that is lacking knowledge in Arabic. The translations that I pointed out in English that used the words "utmost/foremost" are also consistent with the Arabic definition of the word (awwal). Below is another fallacy statement that you made

"Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran"

This statement right here is definately innovations because you fail to produce any Qur'aanic evidence (Chapter & Verse) to prove your statement, so logically since you have failed to do that we have to dismiss your statement as an opinion. You ignore all the verses that I gave you which proves that Muhammad was not the first Muslim. I even quoted you a verse from the Qur'aan to illustrate that Isa (Jesus) was a Muslim and he came before Muhammad. Abraham who came before Muhammad practiced our Peaceful Way Of Life, long, long, long before Muhammad was ever thought of, thus Islaam was well established before Muhammad came on the scene, check out the link below

http//www.angelfire.com/realm3/shahaada/Abraham_Original_Messenger_Of_Islaam.html

To me you sound like the Sunni Muslim who idolize Muhammad. The Qur'aan even says that Abraham was appointed as Imam by Allah. You need to re-read all the verses that I gave you with an open mind. Islaam was well established before Muhammad and the fact that Muhammad was instructed to follow Milla Ibrahiym refutes your claim of him (Muhammad) being the first and now the first full Muslim as you state.

Salam brother Al Khidr

Mate, the many different english meanings has no merit to raise an argument against the Arabic Quran and its Arabic words, not that I'm disputing the Mohammad was not folllowing Melatu Ibrahim, what I'm arguing is this

The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more, and surely Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran, and that full on islam is based on Melatu Ibrahim but far more than what was required back

Regarding Moses argument and his saying that he was the first of the believers, OF COURSE HE WAS THE FIRST TO PRACTICALLY BELIEVE THAT ALLAH CAN'T BE SEEN

Peace

Al_Khidr

Walaykum As Salaam Ahmed Bahgat

You missed critical points that I highlighted. I also came from Arabic to English. This is a mistake in Arabic that you have made when you said this, "The word Awal in Arabic means "First", nothing else nothing more". If you look at Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary you will see the word (awwal) has the following meanings first, utmost, foremost, most important, principle, main part and more. awwal means more then just "first" You have made an attempt to comment on the Arabic,when its you that is lacking knowledge in Arabic. The translations that I pointed out in English that used the words "utmost/foremost" are also consistent with the Arabic definition of the word (awwal). Below is another fallacy statement that you made

"Mohammad was the first full on Muslim after the revelation of the Quran"

This statement right here is definately innovations because you fail to produce any Qur'aanic evidence (Chapter & Verse) to prove your statement, so logically since you have failed to do that we have to dismiss your statement as an opinion. You ignore all the verses that I gave you which proves that Muhammad was not the first Muslim. I even quoted you a verse from the Qur'aan to illustrate that Isa (Jesus) was a Muslim and he came before Muhammad. Abraham who came before Muhammad practiced our Peaceful Way Of Life, long, long, long before Muhammad was ever thought of, thus Islaam was well established before Muhammad came on the scene, check out the link below

http//www.angelfire.com/realm3/shahaada/Abraham_Original_Messenger_Of_Islaam.html

To me you sound like the Sunni Muslim who idolize Muhammad. The Qur'aan even says that Abraham was appointed as Imam by Allah. You need to re-read all the verses that I gave you with an open mind. Islaam was well established before Muhammad and the fact that Muhammad was instructed to follow Milla Ibrahiym refutes your claim of him (Muhammad) being the first and now the first full Muslim as you state.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Whoever brought this message understood that peacefulness(islam) was the correct path. We should all strive to be men and women who EXALT "muhammad" the attributes of the God and manifest them in our character. One can only EXALT "hamd" after the WILL is given birth, therefore "ahmed" comes after the WILL.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

Just to note about the word 'awwal', according to Quranic usage, it's very difficult to understand it as 'first' in a chronological sense

No partner hath He this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will.Wa Bidhalika 'Umirtu Wa 'An 'Awwalu Al-Muslimna (6/163)

If I obey Allah and say the above, would I be commanded by God to build a time machine and go to the time before Muhammad or Ibrahim?

Usage in al-quraan clarifies the meaning of a word.

Al_Khidr

Salaam Tanveer

You have said this

?I was already aware that you translated "deen" as "way of life" in your notes, but all I was requesting was to be consistent with the translation everywhere, otherwise it leads to confusion??

Actually Tanveer, I wrote that article so clear, a beginning would have no problems of understanding it. I personally think it?s your ego that you are having difficulties with because I really made your observations and critical analysis look minuscule. There was no confusion at all, except the reality in your head.

Rashad Khalifa has produced an excellent English translation of Al Qur?aan and he uses the word ?religion?. Not because he lacks knowledge of the Arabic word ?Deen?. The word ?religion? is fashionably used and people can quickly grasp the concept. Tanveer you have to be able learn how to speak the language of the people and get them to understand. You always have to keep that in focus, so sometimes you may have to use word(s), phrases, etc. that may not always be the best but the people can relate to it and in this case people definitely can relate and understand the word ?religion?. And from that point you can raise people?s consciousness by systematically exposing them to deeper a understanding. And that is why my rational of using the word religion and I also used the word ?Way Of Life? or ?Prescribed Way Of Life?, again so that the reader will have a deeper understanding of the Arabic word ?Deen? and that is why in my post, I have said

?Allah only revealed ONE RELIGION or WAY OF LIFE which is described as DEEN. Deen of Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life) is Islaam.?

But due to your dogmatic views and narrow outlook, you will look at the term ?religion? as a mistranslation of the Arabic word ?Deen?. However, just like I have mentioned previously, ?religion? is man-made, Islaam is actually a Prescribed Way Of Life from Allah Himself. Tanveer the term ?religion? used in the context of Allah is not a mistranslation of the word ?Deen?, sometimes you have to look at the context in which the word is being used. Since the term ?religion? is connected to Allah (in context) then that term itself does not possess a man-made doctrine of religion such as Judaism or Christianity. Now I am not saying that the word ?religion? is the best translation, I am not saying that at all, but its usage is appropriate and can be used, just the same way the Progressive Muslims would rather use the English word ?God? in their translation rather then preserve the original Arabic ALLAH. The English is in no way equal to the original ALLAH, but I understand its purpose and why some people use the term ?GOD?. It is just your narrow dogmatic views, which is blinding you Tanveer. The Progressive Muslims translate the word ?Deen? as ?System? and I can understand that and the methology behind translating the word ?Deen? as ?System? but however, people can relate to the word ?religion? and understand it and again when you use the word ?religion? in connection with Allah, the expression is not man-made, like in the religion of Judaism or Christianity.

Let me flip the script for a minute Tanveer. Do you feel or believe that the English word ?GOD?, can take the place of the original Arabic word ?ALLAH? in the Holy Qur?aan? Do you feel that the English word ?GOD? is equal in all respects to the Arabic word ?ALLAH??

Tanveer, you must continue on with your narrow view and dogmatic ways by saying the following

?Secondly there is no justification to use the term "5 pillars", as the fundamental aspects of islam are much more than 5?

and after your provided a list of scriptures you said again

?As you can see the basic elements are more than 5. There are other basic prohibitions too including the prohibited foods and the prohibited marital relations?

Let provide again a quote from my previous article that I posted

?I and many other Muslims alike use the common notion 5 Pillars of Faith, as a means to explain Islaam in a nutshell, not Islaam in its completeness or its entirety. The notion ?5 Pillars of Faith? was never designed to explain all the laws and commandments within the Holy Qur?aan?

Tanveer in your quotes you still continue to say ??islam are much more than 5? and ?As you can see the basic elements are more than 5?? I never declared that the expression ?5 Pillars Of Faith? explains Islaam in its totality or completeness, I only said that it can be used to explain Islaam in a nutshell. I think you need to look up the word ?nutshell? so that you can understand the intentions of myself. But since I never, let me repeat, I never declared that 5 Pillars Of Faith explains Islaam in its completeness. The word ?nutshell? is a word that has the connotation of something being limited and since I never declared that the 5 Pillars explains Islaam in depths/completeness/or in its totality, then Tanveer you do not have an argument here. You need to stick with dealing those so-called Sunni Moslems who may make such foolish declarations. But I believe it?s your dogmatic sectarian beliefs, which is actually limiting your comprehension along with your dogmatic approach to logic and reasoning is what is causing the problem. And this was something that I clearly illustrated with your approach in regards to my article using the word ?religion? and you foolishly try to place it on the same level with my point of exposing the Sunni mistranslation of Al Qur?aan, which (their sunni motives) was something totally different, then I using religion and also using Prescribed Way Of Life.

Since I know the type of psych that I am dealing with, Tanveer let me state the following in this way for you

Again, just like how you over looked critical points in regards to my self and the word ?Deen?, which I clearly highlighted, you have again done the same thing in regards to my expression of the phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith?. I said that phrase or notion that I am using is a harmless expression to explain Islaam in a nutshell, again Tanveer, it is by no means designed to explain Islaam in all its Laws and Commandments etc. and also the expression in which I used ?5 Pillars Of Faith? was not something that I used to reduce expaining the Iman of Islaam, and again you missed the boat, just like the word ?Deen?. Actually your dogmatic views have created a sectarian belief and locked you in an empty void. Such narrow thinking and brainwashing stunts your intellectual faculties.

The phrase ?Five Pillars Of Faith? do not have to be mentioned in the Qur?aan for one to use that phrase. I have given you an example of that with the word ?wudu?. Wudu is not in the Qur?aan, however Muslims like yourself who follow Qur?aan alone use the word or term ?wudu? when address aspects of ablution, so if that is ok then its fine to use ?5 Pillars Of Faith? even though the phrase is not in the Qur?aan. Tanveer, lets not get ridiculous and narrow minded to say that we can express ourselves with only words in the Qur?aan, that?s foolishness. The phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith? that is used by Muslims like myself, use such harmless phrase to address Islaam in a nutshell, not to explain all aspects of Islaam. We do not follow dogmatic sectarian opinions emanating from people like your self.

In closing, you Tanveer, would probably have a good argument dealing with a Sunni Muslim, who may state the phrase ?5 Pillars of Faith?, explains Islaam in its totality or completeness. Tanveer, Open up your mind?

Peace Al Khidr,

I was already aware that you translated "deen" as "way of life" in your notes, but all I was requesting was to be consistent with the translation everywhere, otherwise it leads to confusion. There is NO JUSTIFICATION of mistranslating Allah's words anytime and anywhere, not even once. My humble advice is to be very careful when translating Allah's words ALL THE TIME.

Secondly there is no justification to use the term "5 pillars", as the fundamental aspects of islam are much more than 5, including the prohibitions. The basic criteria is monotheism, followed by many prohibitions and good deeds

Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you

You shall not set up idols besides Him.
You shall honor your parents.
You shall not kill your unborn children from fear of poverty-We provide for you and for them.
You shall not commit gross sins, publicly or privately.
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand.
You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity.
You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means.
You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives.
You shall fulfill your oaths to GOD. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed. (6151-152)

As you can see the basic elements are more than 5. There are other basic prohibitions too including the prohibited foods and the prohibited marital relations, but I just wanted to illustrate that there is no such thing as "5 pillars".

We should refrain from using inaccurate terms to describe islam "in a nutshell", or using terms that are unsupported by Allah's words as that actually causes confusion in the minds of those who are trying to seek the truth and learn about islam, and is also pure conjecture.

I also dont want to go into more details as that is going outside the scope of the topic of this thread, but the website you quoted, in addition to containing many TRUTHS, also has many UNTRUTHS/FALSEHOODS in the form of excess baggage according to the fabricated sectarian notions of islam, which are totally unsupported by Allah's words. Considering your emphasis on seeking only the TRUTH, it is surprising for you to refer everyone to such a site which contains many apparent UNTRUTHS/FALSEHOODS also, unless you put a disclaimer in your post warning everyone of the above.

Regards,

Tanveer

Al_Khidr

Peace all,

Regarding the word "awwala" meaning "foremost" in addition to "first", I would like to draw the attention of everyone to similar usage in English as in the phrase "first lady of USA". Here "first" does not mean the literal first wife of the first president but the "foremost" lady currently. Whether "awwala" means "first" or "foremost" in al-qur'aan is determined by the context.

I hope that helps.

Salaam Brother Tanveer

I think this was a good point. Great analogy.

unknownuser

Peace Al Khidr,

Firstly, in my understanding, "deen" CANNOT be translated as "religion" in al-qur'aan. Please give references from a classical Arabic dictionary if you think otherwise.

Secondly, in my understanding, "5 pillars" CANNOT be used to explain islam even in a "nutshell" as it is a very inaccurate and misleading term and is unsupported by Allah's words.

Thirdly, if you keep using personally insulting remarks and words for me I will have to report you to the moderators. Let this be a kind reminder. Please try to keep the discussion civil and objective and refrain from personal comments and judgments.

Wudu is not in the Qur?aan, however Muslims like yourself who follow Qur?aan alone use the word or term ?wudu? when address aspects of ablution

When did I use the term wudu or support it ?

I follow Allah alone. Al-qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and is sufficient for our guidance but is not the ONLY truth or the ONLY sign. Allah tells us about the signs within and in the universe around us also and encourages us to ponder on all those signs.

But I believe it?s your dogmatic sectarian beliefs which is actually limiting your comprehension along with your dogmatic approach to logic and reasoning is what is causing the problem

We do not follow dogmatic sectarian opinions emanating from people like your self.

Actually your dogmatic views have created a sectarian belief and locked you in an empty void.

Who are you to judge my beliefs and call them sectarian ? Only Allah can judge someone's beliefs. I do not believe in any sects. If I express my understanding based on Allah's words, that becomes sectarian ?

I personally think it?s your ego that you are having difficulties with

you foolishly try to place it on the same level

Since I know the type of psych that I am dealing with

I have no ego problems. I am merely trying to discuss and seek truth based on al-qur'aan. Please refrain from making judgments and personal comments/remarks and calling my statements foolish.

Such narrow thinking and brainwashing stunts your intellectual faculties

But due to your dogmatic views and narrow outlook

It is just your narrow dogmatic views, which is blinding you Tanveer

Tanveer, you must continue on with your narrow view and dogmatic ways

Since when did basing one's views on Allah's words become dogmatic and narrow outlook/view ? If your understanding differs from mine you can present it in a civil and objective manner and give solid arguments to prove it while refraining from personal remarks. Your post would have been complete without the use of any of the above quoted insulting personal remarks and judgements. If you continue with this attitude I will have to say peace and refrain from having any discussion with you in the future.

16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.

2946 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender."

2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."

Regards,

Tanveer