Verse 17:36 The New Idol???
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Peace be upon you "thegod",
idolfree1 wrote
2147 should be sufficient regarding doubt(2147) "The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt"
but that is not a 'scientific' proof...it is simply quoting the book itself! how do v scientifically determine the book is not lying regards that verse? -)
I determine the truth of all verses in ANY book by verification in everyday life. I was merely showing above that the book we are studying verifies the proceedure.
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idolfree1 wrote
2111 should be sufficient that the truthful require proof(2111) Say "Give me your proof/evidence if you were truthful."
the verse 2111
2111 And they said "Will never enter the Paradise except who was Jewish or Christian ." Those are their wishes/desires. Say "Give me your proof/evidence if you were truthful."
Yes, proof is required over blind belief. Whats the difference between that and some guy named "Muhammad" saying all that is in "Koran"? Should we blindly swallow one, and require proof for the other? How do you reason?
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Peace brother.
Guess common sense isn't the same to everyone
Salam
Sure, but the key word is "COMMON"
cause I think it makes common sense to translate it as saying that God and those who are knowledgable are the only ones who can grasp the mutashabihat.
Please read my long comment below and answer my question if you can how come Allah will say with the believers that "He believes in the whole Quran as both from Allah?" a big question that is for mister Edib, for elaboration on the question please read my long comment below
To be sure, this isn't entirely a minority viewpoint. See translations by FM, Yuksel, Maulana Ali.
Fine, we all different, but to give your case some merit you need to answer the couple of questions in my long comment below
To my sense of reason, it would make more sense that God wouldn't put verses in a book for mankind that are not graspable by any human.
Unfortunatlly, the whole thing "The test" is not according to your sense of reason neither to mine, it is according to Allah sense of reason and He explained His sense of reason clearly in 37 as I explained in my long comment below
Tell me what you think of this article Ahmed http//19.org/index.php?id=14,49,0,0,1,0
I have read it twice and in my long comment below i responded to a few points that matters, the rest of the article does not concern me for the moment but one day I will try to respond to brother edib rergarding sura 74
It talks about other things too but Points 1-5 are about 37. Tell me what you think as I am anxious to get the best understanding.
Peace.
Here is what I think
Let?s look at 37 in details
?He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord? and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?
(7)
-> ? ?, ? He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book?, ?The Quran? is referred to as ?Al Kitab?, i.e. Al Kitab in verse 37 means 100% ?Al Quran?, i.e. Al Quran was sent down to Mohammad by Allah.
-> ? ?, ? In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book?, another clear sentence, Allah is saying to Mohammad and anyone who will read the Quran, in this book there are verses basics or fundamental of established meaning, 37 must be one of those as we will see while walking through it, some thought that 37 is a Mutashabihat verse, I even thought the same previously, but I quickly managed to understand that 37 can?t be Mutashabihat, because it is actually telling us the fact that there are Mutashabihat verses and why they were included in the Quran. Humans may expect that a book of guidance should be as clear as it can gets, which I agree, however let?s not forget that the Quran is also used to test everyone, i.e. it is a guidance (Muhkamat) and a test (Mutashabihat) at the same time, this is an awesome planning by the Al Mighty Allah, we read, in the Quran there will be Muhkamat verses, we didn?t read that All the Quran will be Muhkamat verses, those Muhkamat verses were also described as Umma Al Kitab, i.e. the foundation of the book, therefore the context suggest to the believers that the Muhkamat are the ones that they should care about, what about the rest of the Quran then?
-> ? ?, ? others are allegorical?, here is the rest of the Quran, the other portion of the Quran verses are Mutashabihat, i.e. allegorical, i.e. hard to understand, i.e. confusing because it can have more than one meaning, this is not coincidence, it is part of the plan as Allah has told us that He included those allegorical verses in the Quran, now it is about time to ask why He did that?, we don?t need to look any where, we only need to continue reading the verse
-> ? ?, ? But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its meanings,?, the mighty plan objective is revealed, these deliberately inserted allegorical verses are there to expose those in whose hearts is perversity (believers or not, it applies to both), because those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, There is a very important hint in here, for those seeking discord, in which community there are seeking that discord?, it has to be the believers community, therefore we have a double test in hand, a test for the unbelievers to see if they will seek discord by speculating the different meanings of those Mutashabihat verses, and another test for the believers to expose who will follow that discord, it can also be considered a test to the unbelievers who don?t search for the meanings of these verses neither seek discord between the believers, it will be a test for them exactly like the believers to see if they will follow that discord or not. This is awesome planning, it may sound not fair at the first glance, but if we consider the following, I guess it has to be fair
In this life, this is how a tester creates a test, he/she includes in the test a bit of tricky questions, he/she never tell us what sort of tricks it will be included though, and yet the process is fair and square to all, in the case of this life test, The Tester ?Allah? has told us in advance what the trick is ?37?, THIS IS FAIRNESS AT ITS MAX, WHAT IS STRICKING IS, MANY STILL LISTEN TO THAT DISCORD THEN FOLLOW IT AS WE SEE ON THIS WEB SITE AND ON MANY OTHER WEB SITES
-> ? ?, ? but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah?, here is the denial that NO ONE WILL KNOW THE MEANING EXCEPT ALLAH, some people who try to twist the meaning of this crystal clear verse by saying there is a ?Waw? after ?Allah? which means ?And?, i.e. what will follow the Waw should share the action with Allah, the action here is knowing the meaning of those Mutashabihat verses, this is 100% wrong as I will prove ?LOGICALLY SPEAKING? later, but we must take note that this bit also started with a Waw, this does not mean it is sharing what was before it, this is clear from the context before it, the Waw was translated ?But? however ?Waw? means ?And?, it is also common knowledge in the Arabic language to start a new sentence with a Waw, EXACTLY AS THIS SENTENCE AND THE ONE AFFTER IT AND THE ONE AFTER THE ONE AFTER IT as we will see next.
-> ? ?, ? And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, here is a new sentence started with a Waw, and clearly means that the ones with knowledge will believe in both Muhkamat and Mutashabihat verses as BOTH FROM OUR GOD, WHY THEY SAY THAT, IF THEY MANAGED TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANINGS OF THESE MUTSHABIHAT VERSES?, the Mutashabihat should be Muhkamat for them ?Arne? they have the knowledge to know it??, yet they referred to them as BOTH, see, this is the logical refute to those who claim the people with knowledge will also crack these Mutashabihat verses and know its true meanings, I guess they are mixed up in what ?Rasikhoon fi Alilm? means, they think the knowledge may be science, but quite the contrary the Ilm in the verse means ?knowing Allah?, nothing more as science doesn?t fit in the description of the people with knowledge, because we can see an illiterate human who knows Allah far better than Einstein, what is important also is this if the knowledgeable people share the action with Allah in knowing the meaning of the Mutashabihat verses the Allah must share the action of saying ? , i.e. ? ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, see, this alone should demolish that non sensible understanding that those with knowledge will understand the meaning of the Mutashabihat verse along with Allah, because Allah should not say ? We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord?
-> ? ?, ? and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?, this bit started again with a Waw, as an indication of a new sentence, and it can be understood as being part of what the people with knowledge said or just another message from Allah, this two meanings of this bit can?t make 37 Mutashabihat as in either cases ?Allah or Al Rasikhoon fi Alilm? who is saying it, the message is clear that ? and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?
Clear from the above that Allah deliberately inserted Mutashabihat verses to test all of us and He told us in advance about the trick and it is clear that the verse can?t be Mutashabihat because every bit in it is clearly understood and makes great sense within the whole Quran context, the trick outcome as told is simply, some will try to search for its meanings seeking discord, others will listen to that discord and the true believers in Allah will just take it as from Allah without searching into its Mutashabihat meanings and they just accept both Mutashabihat and Muhkamat verses as from Allah
Finally how we can know that a verse is Mutashabih?, simply if we find that it can give two contradictory meaning, or two meaning that totally different and can cause confusion, like marrying 4 women for example, that Mutashabih verse 43 was overwritten by another Muhkam verses in the same sura that told us men can?t be fair with more than one woman hence it ordered us to marry only one, and we can see how the Mutashabih 43 verse causes a lot of back fire on the Muslims who wanted to justify their actions of polygamy in many different ways they interpreted verse (43), the fact of the matter is we don?t need that verse to find out of we should marry 4 or not, because the moment we discover the possibly contradictory meaning in it we should stop chasing its meaning as 37 told, However Allah didn?t leave us confused with the Mutashabih verse 43 He told us later to marry only one and even why we should marry only one
Salam
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Salaams all,
Obsession about Verse 1736 in respect of Verification seems to be getting out of hand?could be.
1722-37.
Do not do shirk??.
Be kind to parents??..
Give rights of others??
Be not stingy??.
Kill not children??
Do no shameful acts??.
Do not kill innocents??.
Don?t cheat orphans??.
Do honest trading??
Not follow /assert what is not though with/of it knowledge??
Don?t be arrogant???.?Don?t simply go out and kill someone if you don?t know you should?!
Marrie said
What I understand from 1736 in the light of the context don't assert nothing before being perfectly sure.
For example to testify a false testimony, to provide a false information, to say you heard and you did not hear, you saw and you did not see, you know and you don't know "All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord", this is why "For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for."I agree,does anyone else?
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Salam all
Can anyone answer these Questions , Please ?
1). How does one go about Proving The Existence of GOD scientifically ?
2). How Do you Verify that The Qur?n is the Word of GOD ?
3). How do you Verify that these Messengers of GOD mentioned in the Qur?n really Existed ?
4). How do you Prove The Existence of malaikat and your Definition of It ?
5). Can you Prove objectively that The Day of Judgement Exist or will come into Existence at a Given Time ?
( all these Questions and their Answers must be in Compliance to 1736 ).
As for me, the answer to the above Questions Is Negative ! Yet I am a believer , perhaps other people call it Faith , and this Faith comes from within the Real Self , reinforced by the Qur?n Verses such as 22-5 , 2147 and 73 among others as well as Observation of Life and Nature.
In my Original post on this Thread I cited Verses 5417, 5422, 5432,5430 as well as 1997 and 4458 as a Challenge to The Wise Brothers and Sisters to prove that Qur?n is Indeed Easy to Understand as the above Verses suggested. If it is Easy to understand , then why Not Resolve the Salat issue Now? If Salat is not 'Ritual Prayer' or if Salat is " Commitment to Uphold The Law of GOD from Dawn to Dusk where-ever we are "then I beg The Wise Ones in this Forum to Please enlighten us all with their Collective Wisdom on this issue so we can lai It to rest once and for all.
My sincere apology if any of my words offend The Believers in Free Mind , as none intended .
Peace and Cheers to all
almarh0m
"He who Created me , It is He who Guide me "
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idolfree1 wrote
I determine the truth of all verses in ANY book by verification in everyday life. I was merely showing above that the book we are studying verifies the proceedure.lets us recall what u said
idolfree1 wrote
The God states that we should be those WITHOUT DOUBT.i asked u to quote the verse which led to u to make that statement, and u responded with
idolfree1 wrote
2147 should be sufficient regarding doubt(2147) "The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt"
so according to u 2147 is stated by god! so what is the scientific proof that this verse is from god, based on which u stated that god states that v should be of those without doubt!
idolfree1 wrote
Yes, proof is required over blind belief. Whats the difference between that and some guy named "Muhammad" saying all that is in "Koran"? Should we blindly swallow one, and require proof for the other? How do you reason?u half-quoted 2111, which can be understood as follows
some people are claiming that not will enter paradise except a jew or a christian, which has no basis in the revelations of god! so the "say.." was in response to a definite contradiction of god's revelations!
a half-quoted verse does no justice to this discussion here! -)
also, are u saying that it was a man who manufactured the quran?...and that it is not from god? -)
that brings us back to what i asked u earlier do u affirm/deny that the quran is the word of god? give a scientifically verified answer which leaves u doubtless! -)
peace -)
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Salam all
Can anyone answer these Questions , Please ?
1). How does one go about Proving The Existence of GOD scientifically ?
2). How Do you Verify that The Qur?n is the Word of GOD ?
3). How do you Verify that these Messengers of GOD mentioned in the Qur?n really Existed ?
4). How do you Prove The Existence of malaikat and your Definition of It ?
5). Can you Prove objectively that The Day of Judgement Exist or will come into Existence at a Given Time ?
( all these Questions and their Answers must be in Compliance to 1736 ).
As for me, the answer to the above Questions Is Negative ! Yet I am a believer , perhaps other people call it Faith , and this Faith comes from within the Real Self , reinforced by the Qur?n Verses such as 22-5 , 2147 and 73 among others as well as Observation of Life and Nature.
In my Original post on this Thread I cited Verses 5417, 5422, 5432,5430 as well as 1997 and 4458 as a Challenge to The Wise Brothers and Sisters to prove that Qur?n is Indeed Easy to Understand as the above Verses suggested. If it is Easy to understand , then why Not Resolve the Salat issue Now? If Salat is not 'Ritual Prayer' or if Salat is " Commitment to Uphold The Law of GOD from Dawn to Dusk where-ever we are "then I beg The Wise Ones in this Forum to Please enlighten us all with their Collective Wisdom on this issue so we can lai It to rest once and for all.
My sincere apology if any of my words offend The Believers in Free Mind , as none intended .
Peace and Cheers to all
almarh0m
"He who Created me , It is He who Guide me "
Salaam Almarh0m
Look like you are another member on free minds who has the same view as me. People will keep questioning Qur'an because they don't want to believe in the message. Qur'an clearly describes these peole. Glad to have you on forum.
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Peace be upon you,
so according to u 2147 is stated by god! so what is the scientific proof that this verse is from god, based on which u stated that god states that v should be of those without doubt!
Anything that is truthful is from the God. Therefore whatever book one reads, they must verify it through life experience, that is EXPERIMENTING, the scientific proceedure. How do you verify that you are following truth? Or do you just believe whatever you are told?
idolfree1 wrote
Yes, proof is required over blind belief. Whats the difference between that and some guy named "Muhammad" saying all that is in "Koran"? Should we blindly swallow one, and require proof for the other? How do you reason?You did not answer this.
u half-quoted 2111, which can be understood as follows
some people are claiming that not will enter paradise except a jew or a christian, which has no basis in the revelations of god! so the "say.." was in response to a definite contradiction of god's revelations!
a half-quoted verse does no justice to this discussion here! -)
So you dont want to answer the question?
also, are u saying that it was a man who manufactured the quran?...and that it is not from god? -)
I am saying that all books are written by man, they dont fall out of the sky. However, any book that is TRUTHFUL and does not conatin falsehood is, by default, from the God.
that brings us back to what i asked u earlier do u affirm/deny that the quran is the word of god? give a scientifically verified answer which leaves u doubtless! -)
Once I finish verifying all of its statements I will give you your answer, however I believe it is from the God, I just don't KNOW yet. But I have verified plenty to keep me busy until I verifythe rest.
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idolfree1 wrote
Anything that is truthful is from the God.let us keep this simple u said the god tells to accept nothing as truth unless it is verified, this u based on ur statement that god tells to be of those without doubt!
so how do u know without doubt that the god states to be of those without doubt? did u hear the god state that? i do not want a circular argument like 'traditions are necessary because traditions say so'!
also, is that (anything truthful is from god) the same as saying whatever is from god is truthful?
idolfree1 wrote
Therefore whatever book one reads, they must verify it through life experience, that is EXPERIMENTING, the scientific proceedure.do u believe that knowledge increases with time? do u believe that 'science' is evolving and as such is incomplete, and that which is imcomplete is imperfect? do u then take as ur verification an imperfect procedure and present it as perfect?
idolfree1 wrote
How do you verify that you are following truth? Or do you just believe whatever you are told?reasoning!
how do u verify god? or do u believe in something u have not scientifically verified?
idolfree1 wrote
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idolfree1 wrote
Yes, proof is required over blind belief. Whats the difference between that and some guy named "Muhammad" saying all that is in "Koran"?that it was a mortal who decided the content of the quran is something u need to prove! -)
idolfree1 wrote
Should we blindly swallow one, and require proof for the other? How do you reason?You did not answer this.
u have not presented a reference for ur claim that everything needs to be verified by experience! -)
for itself, the quran says its a revelation from god do u agree with with this assertion of quran?
if u claim that a mortal authored the book....then the book contains forgery....so which do u choose? that the quran is from god? or is it a forgery?
idolfree1 wrote
So you dont want to answer the question?ur comment rests on the premise that 'god demands that u should ask proof for everything'! however, as v see, the verse u quoted was only presenting half the picture...instead it demanded proof from those who asserted a thing contradictory to god's revelations!
so u still need to reference ur claim that god has asked to demand a proof for everything! -)
idolfree1 wrote
I am saying that all books are written by man, they dont fall out of the sky. However, any book that is TRUTHFUL and does not conatin falsehood is, by default, from the God.so is the quran truthful, is it from god?
idolfree1 wrote
Once I finish verifying all of its statements I will give you your answer, however I believe it is from the God, I just don't KNOW yet. But I have verified plenty to keep me busy until I verifythe rest.according to u, unless u scientifically verify something, u cannot be in certitude...since u do not know as yet...u are in doubt about the content of the book..is that correct?
but the book itself says that it does not contain anything dubious...does it? also, have u found something dubious in it?
have u scientifically verified god? do share ur verification! -)
peace be upon u -)
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Hi alarh0m,
I'll answer ur questions but can I understand ur view point clearly, first? It would help if U answer the following questions I previously asked u.Hi Alarh0m,
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
R u saying upholding this is wrong?
R u saying people should practice blind faith and blind actions? That people should not use their mind to decide what they ought to do, follow, believe? ???Peace!
Peace!
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that brings us back to what i asked u earlier do u affirm/deny that the quran is the word of god? give a scientifically verified answer which leaves u doubtless! -)
Once I finish verifying all of its statements I will give you your answer, however I believe it is from the God, I just don't KNOW yet. But I have verified plenty to keep me busy until I verifythe rest.
rotfl rotfl rotfl
I ve met so many hell ceatures but I havent seen one like idolfree...
he is a real masterpiece... D
hey brother idolfree, I wonder how much time will it take you to verify the rest of the statements in Koran ? D
For example, have you verified scientifically that Ebu-Leheb was a kafir? yay
Or have you verified scientifically that Jesus has begotten without a father? yay
Now, joking apart, answer the following
Do you really KNOW that tomorrow the gravitational acceleration will be 9,81 m2/sec or do you just believe (or assume) that it will be so as it has been so until now?
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Peace Kestrel )
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peace,
agree with Idolfree. We must make an effort to verify everything, including the quran.
And Kestrel, we do not need to set up a controlled scientific experiment in a laboratory to verify a certain piece of information. Many times, the empirical evidence is already in our head (our life). All we need to do is connect a couple of dots. If you can't do that, or don't want to do that, then you are no different then Abu Lahab (who probably followed some other holy teachings without verification).
I don't know why when the word "verify" is mentioned, people start picturing a lab with test tubes in it. seriously, learn what verify means and use your head to understand what someone is trying to say. Instead of posting useless information with smileys after every sentence. O0
Because everyone can do that. offtopic
so grow up. bravo. please. confused -
kestrel wrote
I ve met so many hell ceatures but I havent seen one like idolfree...dont be so harsh....he may have his own views....but in the very least he speaks for himself unlike some others here who do not have the ability to defend or refute so only take to following others in what they say without providin any arguments of their own!
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Peace kestrel. Idol-free,from his posts,is one of the most original,open-minded,honest,brave,and enlightened members on this forum......Rather than a hell-creature,he is probably a 'peace-loving' creature... bravo
Peace all. -
peace enquirer,
Peace kestrel. Idol-free,from his posts,is one of the most original,open-minded,honest,brave,and enlightened members on this forum......Rather than a hell-creature,he is probably a 'peace-loving' creature...
enquirer i agree 100% with your opinion regarding idolfree1 )
peace.
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Peace All
I can see that on this web site there are very well Quran informed muslims
keep it up brothers
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almarh0m wrote
It gives me no Joy to write this post , but i feel i must do it. The un-healthy Obsession about Verse 1736 in respect of Verification seems to be getting out of hand. Do we have to Personally Verify everything before we believe it to be true ?so coming to ur question no....we have thus far not seen anything in the quran which asks people to personally experience everything therein before believing by it! nor does god state anywhere to demand proofs for every quranic verse before believing in the quran!
infact the quran talks about those who believe by the gayb...then if god were to want u to verify everything...it would be asking a contradiction of u! it seems some of the verses like 2111 and 2147 have been misunderstood (and mistranslated) by some, which is causing a bit of confusion!
coming to 1736, 1 of the tools employed by the distracters of quran is to try to isolate its verses out of context so as to present a different picture, and the verse (1736) is perhaps another example of such isolation! a series of 'dos and donts', termed as hikmat, starts from 1722 and continues till 1739, of which 1736 is a part who believe by the quran are not to be upholders of that regarding which has not come 'ilm'!
example...4157 god does not take us back in time to verify for us whether or not christ was killed...it simply informs us that christ was not killed...then whoso upholds that christ was killed does so without 'ilm'! and v are not to be such upholders!
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Peace Ahmed.
Thanks for your post on 37. Makesa lot of sense.
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Peace friend,
agree with Idolfree. We must make an effort to verify everything, including the quran.
Phoenix, nobody is against this.But the discussion is about the un-healthy obsession about verse 1736, if we have to personally verify everything before we believe it to be true ? There are numerous things that an individual can never personally verify.Now keeping this in mind go and re-read my message plz.
And Kestrel, we do not need to set up a controlled scientific experiment in a laboratory to verify a certain piece of information. Many times, the empirical evidence is already in our head (our life).
friend, all these have nothing to do with what i wanted to say.my point is that you cant even verify that physical laws are constant over time so how can you verify ALL of the statements of Koran.You would say "g=9,81 m2/sec for all times" is a scientific fact, however it is rather a strong belief.How can you be sure gravity wont become a repulsive force tomorrow morning.
use your head to understand what someone is trying to say.
yes, plz use your head to understand what I'm trying to say.
so grow up. . please.
yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay
sorry but I'm happy with the child in me. D
yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay
peace...