What is DIVINE (GOD'S WORDS)?
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
The above is the flaw I find in your argument.
I donlt underswtand what you mean man, but did you consider that the onus on those who claim that it is not the words of Allah ?as the Quran says? to prove such allegation and tell us who was the mystery person(s) who authored the Quran?
If someone found the 100 bucks, and someone else comes and challenges him, then what you are doing is saying that the challenger is dumb and his opinion is worthless.
Not really, what I said if someone else came and said he owns the money then we have a problem in hand and the matter must be settled at court
In the case of the Quran, the Quran says about itself that it is the exact words of Allah, now for others to suggest something else they have to tell us who is that person and why he stayed anonymous?, now I can tell you whoi is the Author of the Quran if you don?t know Him, just read the Quran thoroughly and He will introduce Himself in great details to you
There have been many people who have challenged the Quran.
Excuse me bro, we need the author or the Quran if they say Allah is not the Author, other than that, their ranting is a waste of time
Maybe no one has been able to prove anything,
Of course no one proved that he is the author of the Quran, did you see/hear anyone came forward and said that he was the author of the Quran in the last 1400 years other than Allah?
but they all have challenged it.
not sure how you understand this challenge, that is different challenge to the make sura like it, the challenge in here is brought to the Kuffar on themselves by themselves, they came ranting and said a human is the author of the Quran, then they say Mohammad is that human and sometimes they say someone else, while neither Mohammad no someone lese ever claimed to be the author
what load of non sense those ranters come with for the last 1400 years
I don't think it's about the challenge, i think it's about proving what you have against the quran.
Well you may say this to those ranters then, because they brought that challenge on themselves by themselves, they are the ones who are promoting that a mystery human authored the Quran
I wasn't arguing that the Quran isn't from God. I do think it is,
but not in the way you do.and what is the way that I do?
I don't think God gave the Quran word for word to Muhammad.
It was not, it was word for word from Gebril to Mohammad, didn?t you know that?
The message of course is from God (everything is),
You need to elaborate for that one
but the words are Muhammad.
haha, here we go, Mister phonix, please don?t do like the sunni and associate things to Mohammad HE NEVER ASSOCIATED TO HIMSELF, Mohammad never said the flawed statement by you above
I guess you are mixed up between the Quran and the hadith, what you said above applies to the hadith mister believer, not to the Quran
That is another reason why I don't trust the Hadith.
LOLOLOLOL
You just answered yourself, now the Quran is not the hadith of the prophet mister believer
Because when Muhammad and/or his followers compiled the message into one book, they included in it whatever they thought people would need.
And you evidences are?
Wow, that was exactly as the Quran said
Slam dunk
see. You don't NEED the quran to know what is right or wrong.
oh yeh, how about the pork meat, did thee humans back then knew that it is bad?
cheers
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peace Ahmed,
it's great that you find my post amusing (really) ). But the thing is, i'm serious (where's the serious smiley?)
You did get me right. I do think that the Quran is the hadith. They are the same thing. Now i just "think" that. I don't know that. I know and I admit that I don't know (it's one of the "known unknowns". But i want to know. I want to have the best understanding. That is why I am having this debate with you.I said that everything is from God. This universe is from God. It contains God's message. Our goal is to understand and live by that message. Muhammad reached a state of being where he understood this message completely (enlightenment), so he started preaching his message to his people (in arabic). These teachings of Muhammad were later written down (either by him or his followers) and compiled into one book which we call the Quran.
This is just a "theory." What is it based on? well, the first thing is the fact that so far i havn't been able to find anything in the quran that people cannot discover for themselves. It is a great book, but in terms of what it teaches mankind, it is not anything "divine." The purpose of the Quran, it seems then, is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide. If we read the Quran, we already know what is bad for us and what is good for us without having to experience the good and bad to differentiate. Gambling is bad. If no one taught us that gambling is bad, then we would find out that gambling is bad only by gambling first. The Quran, or any other source of guidance, saves us from that gambling part
There is a bit more to it, but i'll save it for later.
Please tell me how you think Muhammad got hold of the Quran. Also, please provide me with evidence contradictory to my thinking. thanks. )oh yeh, how about the pork meat, did thee humans back then knew that it is bad?
cheers
why not? I myself am proof of what i claim. You saw it, now the next step is to accept it. I didn't know that what i said was also in the quran. I learned that myself. I don't know from where, but not the quran. that is proof.
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Peace AB,
what load of non sense those ranters come with for the last 1400 years
Interesting point. The same arguments that have been there from when quran was written down, are still being used today.
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
255 And they said ?Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening.?
215 They said ?No, these are just bad dreams; no, he made it up; no, he is a poet. So let him bring us a sign like those who were sent before.?
- And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say ?We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!?
5921 Had We sent down this Quran to a mountain, you would have seen it trembling, crumbling, out of reverence for God. And such are the examples We cite for the people, that they may reflect.
Peace
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Peace Phoenix,
These are quotes from your last post.
This is just a "theory." What is it based on? well, the first thing is the fact that so far i havn't been able to find anything in the quran that people cannot discover for themselves.
I didn't know that what i said was also in the quran. I learned that myself. I don't know from where, but not the quran.
The purpose of the Quran, it seems then, is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide.
Pleas clarify, coz I'm confusedPeace
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Peace all
enquirer wrote
Peace danish and all. I think danishes' post highlights a very important lesson to be learned. Laws,principles and rules cannot always be applied literally across the board in every situation...In the example given the women is in the most need,and so should receive the most help...Now to say that you should give the brother more because the quran says so,is bizzare,and probably against the 'spirit' of the book. In real life if you gave more to the brother or mother this would seem unjust..even if one says that the brother should recieve the greater portion,but is 'obliged' to help the sister,you cannot guarantee that a)the brother will fulfill this duty.(the brother might dislike the sister,or be unjust.) and b) why not give it to the sister straight away to cut out the beaurocracy,and to make sure the sister gets her 'rights'.
This example is another blow to those who seek a 'literal' interpretation of the quran in every situation,regardless of time,context,or the need for situation based ethics,morality..And the fact that human benefit is the main purpose of any scripture/knowledge...
Peace all.i completely back you on this one
and i would like to add, that at least in my case, that doesn't mean that quran is "tales of the ancient" to me...if it was, i wouldn't ne reading it nearly every day...
The morals stays, the rules adapt
lk -
peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
it's great that you find my post amusing (really) ). But the thing is, i'm serious (where's the serious smiley?)
I hope you don?t take my comments to you as offensive, just consider me a real brother to you, but one of those tough ones, LOL, not kiddin man, I?m very tough with my family memebers in addition to being very kind at the same time, Alhamdullelah
You did get me right. I do think that the Quran is the hadith.
Please bro, you need to back up what you say, now neither the Quran nor the hadith of Mohammad ever suggested the above
They are the same thing.
An utterly flawed statement, mate you are comparing human words with Allah words, please don?t be one of those who like comparing apples with mangos
There is no comparison between the hadtih of Mohammad or any human for that matter and the hadith of Allah
Now i just "think" that. I don't know that. I know and I admit that I don't know (it's one of the "known unknowns". But i want to know. I want to have the best understanding. That is why I am having this debate with you.
To be honest man, I don?t consider that I debate anyone here, if I seriously debate then it has to be under rules and judges, other than this everyone stands firm to their positions, but what I found that many here stand firm to their illogical positions
I said that everything is from God. This universe is from God.
Mate, we are talking about the last message here, the Quran, we are not talking about the heaven and earth please
It contains God's message.
Sure, but do you care to tell me what this message is and how it will guide us and save us on the JD?, thanks
Our goal is to understand and live by that message.
Well, I still need to know that message that I will get from the heaven and earth, if you mean the message is, there is a creator, great that is obvious to the believers hence they believe, but I just don?t get it, how this metaphorical message will guide and save us?
Muhammad reached a state of being where he understood this message completely (enlightenment),
What message exactly?
1)The message that there is God, or
2)the message of the Quran, please note the message of the Quran also include the first message and many other messages inside itso he started preaching his message to his people (in arabic).
Preaching his message or Allah message? This is very confusing bro, Mohammad didn?t have his own message, he was assigned a role as a messneger to deliver the message of His God
These teachings of Muhammad were later written down (either by him or his followers) and compiled into one book which we call the Quran.
Evidences please, the above was never ever suggested by Allah, neither by Mohammad nor by his followers
This is just a "theory."
I?m glad it is, but it is a flawed one though and does not make any sense
What is it based on? well, the first thing is the fact that so far i havn't been able to find anything in the quran that people cannot discover for themselves.
Really?, how about the descriptions of the hell and paradise, did humans managed to know that themselves?
And at what generation exactly you are talking about?, one of the firsts or one of the latests?, because the knowledge of the firsts was far less than the knowledge of the latests as you know
How about Abu Lahab, did the humans know that he will die a kafir?
I?m sure that there are zillions of examples of things we only knew it from the Quran, I?m just very busy preparing myself to go overseas on 25/5 and have a lot of things to do, but possibly when I come back I will search the Quran and bring to you at least 10 examples of things that we only knew from the Quran and not from any other human
It is a great book,
And why that human author ?if it is true? denies himself his great book?, I need some logical answers please, so far you provided nill
but in terms of what it teaches mankind, it is not anything "divine." The purpose of the Quran,
But that contradicts what the Quran says about itself
it seems then, is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide.
Well, it seems you just contradicted yourself, how come humans manage to discover everything in the Quran without the need of the Quran then you say ? is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide?, please bro, don?t confuse me
If we read the Quran, we already know what is bad for us and what is good for us without having to experience the good and bad to differentiate.
Really?, lol bro, what you said means that having experience in life is useless, thank you for the insight though, here is another contradiction by you, if we already know what is bad for us and what is good for us then how come the Quran is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide.?
Gambling is bad.
Excuse me bro, to what laws exactly gambling is bad?, is it to the human laws or to the Quran laws?, also many humans see gambling not a bad thing
If no one taught us that gambling is bad, then we would find out that gambling is bad only by gambling first.
Haha mate, then how come we already know what is bad for us and what is good for us ?
The Quran, or any other source of guidance, saves us from that gambling part
There is a bit more to it, but i'll save it for later.Now let?s see another thing other than gambling, I guess we have a huge list to choose from, how about marrying 4?
Well many humans think it is bad, and many others think it is good, to what standards exactly, I have to ask?
Now the Quran has a totally different view on that subject, and I?m sure no one can say that logically speaking polygamy is wrong, but a lot will agree that gambling is wrong, so you chose an obvious bad example which is gambling, there are many other examples that humans can't know that it is bad or good for them, the Quran actually told us that humans may love something that is bad for them and hate something that is good for them
Where is the Quran stands here regarding your argument of gambling if we apply it on ploygamy?
Please tell me how you think Muhammad got hold of the Quran.
Man, it is written in the quran, please read it thoroughly, but I told you that before already, it is through Gebril, word by word then Allah made Mohammad memorise it as He told us in the Quran then Mohammad recited it to them and told his people, that what they heard is from Allah, now why Mohammad say that if it is his words thank you?
Also, please provide me with evidence contradictory to my thinking. thanks. )
I will bro but please give me a chance until I come from OS, I?m leaving on 25 and will be back on 6/6, because I need a lot of time to search the Quran and find the verses that contradict your understanding inshaallah
why not? I myself am proof of what i claim. You saw it, now the next step is to accept it. I didn't know that what i said was also in the quran. I learned that myself. I don't know from where, but not the quran. that is proof.
Good for you bro
cheers
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Peace AB,
what load of non sense those ranters come with for the last 1400 years
Interesting point. The same arguments that have been there from when quran was written down, are still being used today.
831 And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!
255 And they said Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening.
215 They said No, these are just bad dreams; no, he made it up; no, he is a poet. So let him bring us a sign like those who were sent before.
- And if Our revelations are recited to them, they Say We have listened, and if we wish, we could have said the same thing. This is nothing but tales of the ancients!
5921 Had We sent down this Quran to a mountain, you would have seen it trembling, crumbling, out of reverence for God. And such are the examples We cite for the people, that they may reflect.
Peace
What can I say bro, well, the Quran is the terminator of these non sense, how great to read in it what we see and hear around us?, i guess it impresses you as it does with me
Take care bro and keep the strong faith in our God
Salam
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Peace Phoenix,
These are quotes from your last post.
This is just a "theory." What is it based on? well, the first thing is the fact that so far i havn't been able to find anything in the quran that people cannot discover for themselves.
I didn't know that what i said was also in the quran. I learned that myself. I don't know from where, but not the quran.
The purpose of the Quran, it seems then, is to help us, guide us, and save us from hardships we would encounter without this guide.
Pleas clarify, coz I'm confusedPeace
I swear bro, i didn't read that comment before I posted my long reply to brother phonix, but it seems we have a red hand case in hand
take care
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peace Zenje, Ahmed
Sorry about not being clear.
The way we learn things is through experience. We cannot know what something is without experiencing it. So if we want to know something is bad, we need to experience that bad thing to learn from it. The Quran, and every other piece of knowledge and guidance, makes it easier for us because we don't have to experience it to know that it is bad. And that "proof" i was talking about was that i came up with the conclusion on how to distribute the money without knowing that the quran said the same thing. We don't have to read the quran to know what is right and what is wrong.
But forget about everything because these are just trivial details (which i bet none of us will ever agree on).
These are my main points
-is it "God alone" or "God and Quran alone?"
is it really necessary for us to read the quran and follow it exactly to connect to God?
would mankind lose it's way if every copy of the Quran dissappeared?
Does God really need a book to carry His message?
Should we use the Quran as a useful piece of guidance (whether divine or not) or should we make it an idol that we must accept and follow and even worship to achieve salvation?
please answer those questions and help me help you help me help myself. -
What can I say bro, well, the Quran is the terminator of these non sense, how great to read in it what we see and hear around us?, i guess it impresses you as it does with me
Its a wonderful historical book to read from which one can learn, understand and reflect, just like any other spiritual and jurisprudent books along with real events/circumstances which REALITY calls out for; "hands-on facts". Several "wisdom quotes", poetry and touching songs are quite enchanting and can easily become "Allah's Words", come to think of it. sun
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and Ahmed,
what does "red hand case" mean??
LOL bro
it is an expression I made that is metaphorical of being caught red handed, you know the word Yad is used in many metaphorical ways in the Quran
Cheers
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What can I say bro, well, the Quran is the terminator of these non sense, how great to read in it what we see and hear around us?, i guess it impresses you as it does with me
Its a wonderful historical book to read from which one can learn, understand and reflect, just like any other spiritual and jurisprudent books along with real events/circumstances which REALITY calls out for; "hands-on facts". Several "wisdom quotes", poetry and touching songs are quite enchanting and can easily become "Allah's Words", come to think of it. sun
mate, as far as i saw in my life no book has reached that amazing level of making all people itchy about it but the Quran
look at ya for example, you are very itchy about the Quran
Salam
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Peace be with you Phoenix,
I will try to answer your questions with more questions, perhaps you will think about them.
-is it "God alone" or "God and Quran alone?"
Is it one or the other?is it really necessary for us to read the quran and follow it exactly to connect to God?
Perhaps not a must, but why not?would mankind lose it's way if every copy of the Quran dissappeared?
Is this a real question?Does God really need a book to carry His message?
The God does not need anything.Should we use the Quran as a useful piece of guidance (whether divine or not) or should we make it an idol that we must accept and follow and even worship to achieve salvation?
Quran is for our guidance. No one here disagrees with that. Why the insistence to go one extreme or the other? Why refuse the guidance when it has been given to you for your benefit? Why is it, that when one adheres to quran as God's words, he/she "worships" quran?Peace
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peace Zenje,
Is it one or the other?
i think God alone is enough.
Perhaps not a must, but why not?
exactly. it's not a must. It is a great book, but if one does not have access to it, or one cannot find any guidance in it, then does one have to follow it in order to achieve heaven?
would mankind lose it's way if every copy of the Quran dissappeared?
Is this a real question?yes it was. But i think i got your answer. which is "no."
Quran is for our guidance. No one here disagrees with that. Why the insistence to go one extreme or the other? Why refuse the guidance when it has been given to you for your benefit? Why is it, that when one adheres to quran as God's words, he/she "worships" quran?
following the quran is not what i have a problem with. I follow it myself. What I call worship is not when a person calls the quran God's words but when it is treated like this indestructible, perfect book and any kind of comment questioning that is replied with anger. And when people take everything in the quran literally and believe in it even though the literal interpretation makes no sense. That is believing in something blindly. Not because it is good, but because they are compelled to follow what they believe is the word of God.
Maybe it is perfect, but is that what the important message is? is the purpose of the quran to prove to us that the quran is the word of God?
If someone denies that the Quran is the word of God but still follows it's message, does that mean that person is a rejector?
My point is, why can't we just take guidance from it, follow it's rules and principles, and leave it at that.
Use for what it is supposed to be used. Do we not have trust in it's message that we have to convince others that it has divine origins? -
Peace Phoenix,
i think God alone is enough.
As do I.It is a great book
Aye, it's that... and then some.
but if one does not have access to it...
Aye
or one cannot find any guidance in it
then one wasn't looking for guidance, was one?yes it was. But i think i got your answer. which is "no."
No, my question was is this real?... all qurans dissappearing in the world! Let's put it this way, If that happens, then I'll have an answer for you then.following the quran is not what i have a problem with. I follow it myself.What I call worship is not when a person calls the quran God's words but when it is treated like this indestructible, perfect book and any kind of comment questioning that is replied with anger.
First, If you follow the quran, truly, then you believe it's God's words. If you don't believe it's God's words, then you don't follow it, truly. (Generally speaking, not you specifically) Second, it is perfect, I am yet to find a close second, but I am open to suggestions. Replying with anger, has got nothing to do with the book, or God, that is the individual's emotional reaction. Just as one probably wouldn't be all happy and joyful if their mother were insulted. Just an example, let's not get into that, please.And when people take everything in the quran literally and believe in it even though the literal interpretation makes no sense. That is believing in something blindly.
I think we have established that there is no one (not secterian nor otherwise) that believe that EVERYTHING in quran is literal, so let's not keep throwing this out like it's real. Something that makes sense to me, may not make sense to you and neither party is wrong, agreed?Not because it is good, but because they are compelled to follow what they believe is the word of God.
For some, maybe even many, this may be true, but this case does not apply to all. For example, I believe that quran is the word of God without a shadow of a doubt. Does this mean that I can scientifically/rationally convince you?.. no. And because of that, am I then believing blindly?... let God be the judge of that.Maybe it is perfect, but is that what the important message is?
The important message, whatever you believe it to be, is perfect. But no, perfection is not the point.If someone denies that the Quran is the word of God but still follows it's message, does that mean that person is a rejector?
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but if you've rejected God's words, then yes, you're a rejector. I don't see how one would REJECT God's word, and then follow it at the same time though.My point is, why can't we just take guidance from it, follow it's rules and principles, and leave it at that.
But that's what we strive to do! sunDo we not have trust in it's message that we have to convince others that it has divine origins?
I don't try to convince others, that's an exercise in futility, especially when others are not interested in learning from it.I hope we have come closer to understanding eact other.
Peace be with you.