Veil in Saudi Arabia-- Do You Find This Interesting?

trn567765

i have spoken to many women who wear the veil and most say they wear it because they choose to. to protect themselves from mens thoughts. most people believe women are forced to but women are not they wear it proudly.

TAJ

Peace Trn,

i have spoken to many women who wear the veil and most say they wear it because they choose to. to protect themselves from mens thoughts. most people believe women are forced to but women are not they wear it proudly.

I love my veil. It does a wondrous job in protecting me from the harsh weather! But to protect me from men's thoughts... mm..?
What some men think of women is really their problem not ours and I am not here to slove it or make it easier for them.. However, if a man is thinking "something" about me and then I would sense it in his behaviour.. I then would just avoid any possible direct contact with such person, not only by the veil, as that won't stop him, but by avoiding being in his way altogether, especially when you know that it is not just my body and face but also because my voice and my way of talking can be very attractive too, as well as my aura, all parts of me that I cannot cover or change!

Proud of wearing the veil? All women should be proud of themselves with or without veil. Pride, by itself, is a great wall/hijab against lusty, mischievous men. A proud woman would never allow a man to take the wrong step towards her.

And,, welcome to the forum, Trn )

unknownuser

Salam AhmedBahgat, all,

Peace Ahmed,

Muhammah Shar7roor is a real person. He basically is trying to reinterpret Al Quran by creating a whole new meaning to the Arabic words. He is very entertaining in his TV interviews and has a great sense of humor, but you wouldn't see any body who is knowledgeable in Arabic language buying his talk!

It seems Sha7roor is a real person

sorry Taj, i thought it was a good joke by you, LOL

Thank you sister

i must check him out, i never heard of him actually

does he have a web site?

cheers

Dr. Shahrour is the best of the best!-) I had a chance to talk to him on phone last year when I was working with a team translating his book, he is cool, open, and I like a lot his objectivity. I haven't seen him once having that language on "sects" and what each group is doing (the labeling habit that most of people have when they want to refute other schools of thought). He has a website www.shahrour.org.

HOpe the above helps.
Peace. Myr.

TAJ

Peace Myr, All

Muhammah Shar7roor is a real person. He basically is trying to reinterpret Al Quran by creating a whole new meaning to the Arabic words. He is very entertaining in his TV interviews and has a great sense of humor, but you wouldn't see any body who is knowledgeable in Arabic language buying his talk!

Dr. Shahrour is the best of the best!-) I had a chance to talk to him on phone last year when I was working with a team translating his book, he is cool, open, and I like a lot his objectivity. I haven't seen him once having that language on "sects" and what each group is doing (the labeling habit that most of people have when they want to refute other schools of thought).

He is cool alright and so much fun to watch as he has a charming personality that would carry you awayyyyyyy
but if you try to verify it you would find that some (and some is enough) of what he says is baseless; not found in any Arabic dictionaries.. that's all.. I love Shahroor but, for the love of Allah, I can't buy what Shahroor says.

unknownuser

Salam Taj,

Peace Myr, All

Muhammah Shar7roor is a real person. He basically is trying to reinterpret Al Quran by creating a whole new meaning to the Arabic words. He is very entertaining in his TV interviews and has a great sense of humor, but you wouldn't see any body who is knowledgeable in Arabic language buying his talk!

Dr. Shahrour is the best of the best!-) I had a chance to talk to him on phone last year when I was working with a team translating his book, he is cool, open, and I like a lot his objectivity. I haven't seen him once having that language on "sects" and what each group is doing (the labeling habit that most of people have when they want to refute other schools of thought).

He is cool alright and so much fun to watch as he has a charming personality that would carry you awayyyyyyy
but if you try to verify it you would find that some (and some is enough) of what he says is baseless; not found in any Arabic dictionaries.. that's all.. I love Shahroor but, for the love of Allah, I can't buy what Shahroor says.

Saying that somebody is cool and open does not mean everything he says or does is correct or that you have to agree with everything and anything he claims. I myself disagree with him on several issues and let us remember even the prophets did mistakes and were recalled on several issues. However, Dr Shahrour has an engineering mind that most of the scholars and people do not have and that he successfuly (to my undestanding of course-)) used in his books to tackle the issues he wanted to tackle.
Can you give us an example of that "some is enough" that you could not verify? Thank you.

Peace. Myr.

TAJ

Peace Myr,

You can check few posts back in this thread.. Yes, I know that he studied engineering in Eastern Europe.

unknownuser

Salam AhmedBahgat, all,

Peace Ahmed,

Muhammah Shar7roor is a real person. He basically is trying to reinterpret Al Quran by creating a whole new meaning to the Arabic words. He is very entertaining in his TV interviews and has a great sense of humor, but you wouldn't see any body who is knowledgeable in Arabic language buying his talk!

It seems Sha7roor is a real person

sorry Taj, i thought it was a good joke by you, LOL

Thank you sister

i must check him out, i never heard of him actually

does he have a web site?

cheers

Dr. Shahrour is the best of the best!-) I had a chance to talk to him on phone last year when I was working with a team translating his book, he is cool, open, and I like a lot his objectivity. I haven't seen him once having that language on "sects" and what each group is doing (the labeling habit that most of people have when they want to refute other schools of thought). He has a website www.shahrour.org.

HOpe the above helps.
Peace. Myr.

Thank you sister, now I have two contradicting oipinions regarding that man, well I can;t take any of what you both said sisters unless i find out myself and honestly state my opinion regarding what he promotes about the Quran

thank again myr for the link

peace

Samia

To Taj

Prof. Sha7roor did not say "jabe" means "zeena". he explained it by its meaning in the verse where Allah asked Moses to put his hand in (jabika your jabe), and by the linguistic meaning of its its root.

Also, who said knowledgeable people in Arabic language do not buy his talk? It is just the opposite, i.e only people knowledgeable in Arabic do understand him.

He is Syrian, professor in Mechanical engineering, and a master in Arabic language and linguistics. He explains the words in the Qur'aan by their usage in the Qur'aan (hence his differentiation between The Book and The Qur'aan) and by refering to the oldest Arabic dictionary by Abu Fares and the linguistic works of Jirjani and Tha`laba.

unknownuser

Salam Taj,

Peace Myr,

You can check few posts back in this thread.. Yes, I know that he studied engineering in Eastern Europe.

Your answer shows me that you could not answer my question. Peace. Myr.

unknownuser

Salam AhmedBahgat,

Thank you sister, now I have two contradicting oipinions regarding that man, well I can;t take any of what you both said sisters unless i find out myself and honestly state my opinion regarding what he promotes about the Quran

thank again myr for the link

peace

Thanks God you want to find out for yourself-) otherwise it is not a healthy thinking to just go by what others say or state. His book "al kitab wa alQuran" is very interesting (you can download it from his website). His analysis of "tarteel" from within the Quran is merely sublime for me and I am convinced this is how Quran should be studied but again find out for yourself!-).

Peace. Myr.

warda

Thank you sister

i must check him out, i never heard of him actually

does he have a web site?

cheers

Salam Ahmed

You can find more about him and from him here

http//www.fykr.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=6022cb2d42946ec59ee86f469764e21b

You can listen to him also talking about secularism and history of secularism in the western as well as in the arabic world (in arabic only). Very interesting. I like this guy.

I find his work very interesting and its actually not true that everybody who has some deeper knowledge of the arabic language doesnt take his work serious.

Regards
warda

warda

Dr. Shahrour is the best of the best!-) I had a chance to talk to him on phone last year when I was working with a team translating his book, he is cool, open, and I like a lot his objectivity. I haven't seen him once having that language on "sects" and what each group is doing (the labeling habit that most of people have when they want to refute other schools of thought). He has a website www.shahrour.org.

HOpe the above helps.
Peace. Myr.

Peace Myr,

Wow, I can imagine thats it quite a hard task to translate his book into english! I have great respect for u doing so, really. Is the result of your work what we can see here on fm http//www.free-minds.org/books/shahroor.htm ?

Regards
warda

TAJ

Peace Samia,,

Well Samia,, The people of E'Sham know Shahroor really well,, especially the people of linguistics. However, you seem to care for him more than you care for the truth, so I am not going to say what those gaint linguistics say about Shahroor's interpretations! I suppose you are intelligent enough to, by God's guidance, find out by yourself.

Peace,

A quotian from the book, The nature of the Book, by Dr.Shahroor.

"?And tell the believing women to

Subdue their eyes, and
Keep their private area chaste <Farj>.
They shall not expose their <Zeenatuhun>, except that which is exposed. They shall place their cover on their <Juyoobuhun>, and shall not expose their <Zeentauhun> except to their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters,
<Nisauhun>,
<Ma Malakat Aymanuhun> or
Workers who do not have sexual interest, or
The children who do not yet understand women?s private parts.
8 They shall not strike their feet so it is known what they hide from their <Zeenatuhun>.
All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.? (24/31)
This command has also come down in 24/30 to address the male believers that they should subdue their gaze, and in 24/31 for the female believers that they do the same.
This is the first line of defense for both males and females from wanting and this would imply in today?s society to people we see in the street or even on TV, for the believers will not stare at sights which would make them uncomfortable (if the roles were reversed) but should exercise judgment.
Maintain the chastity has also come before this verse in 24/30 to address the believing men that they should maintain their chastity. The word <Farj> is directly related to the ?private area? or ?genitals? of both the man and the woman. The command in this verse is that women (and men in the previous verse) should PROTECT and CONCEAL their ?private area?.
The implications of this word go beyond merely the exposure of ones private area, but also to the level that protection involves not letting anyone touch or come near. Thus the idea of ?foreplay? and touching or ?oral sex? is AUTOMATICALLY rejected by the Quran for all those who are unmarried and no excuses are given.
The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

The area of the head (mouth, ears, nose) as well as the feet and hands all fall under the EXCEPTION to being covered which is mentioned as <Ma Zahar> in the same verse. <Ma Zahar> is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding <Zahar> from the body and therefore are exempt from having their <Zeena> which is the <Jayb> from being covered.
It is worth noting that a woman's stomach and back are NOT part of the <Zeena> and can be revealed if one wished to do so with no implications of "Right" or "Wrong".
It is upto the believing women to ensure that all these areas known as <Zeena> are covered and not revealed to anyone except 1. Husband, 2. Father, 3. Husband?s Father, 4. Son, 5. Husband?s Son, 6. Brother, 7. Brother?s Son, 8. Sister?s Son.
Some people may think that this allows a woman to appear entirely naked in front of the above list. The answer to that is ?yes?, it is not from the Halal or Haram if this happens, but it will be modesty and cultural norms that make this concept peculiar.

It is CRITICAL to note that the list of men to whom a woman can reveal her <Zeena> does NOT include her (Uncle, Son from Suckling, Brother from Suckling, Mother?s Husband, Daughter?s Husband and Sister?s Husband) EVEN THOUGHT these people are "Mahram's" whom she is forbidden from marrying (see sura # 4 for the full "Mahram" list).
This new understanding implies that some men may still have a sexual drive or desire for a woman even though they are her "Mahram's" which she is forbidden from marrying. Thus she is NOT to reveal her <Zeena> in their presence.

This understanding of <Zeena> will force most Fiqh scholars to re-examine their understanding that the <Zeena> is merely ornaments or make-up, but it is something much more which only a limited few are allowed to see (or else the Mahram?s in Sura # 4 must never see a woman if she has make-up or jewelry on).
4) The next word for those who may see a woman?s <Zeena> is described by the word <NISAUHUN>.
This word has been mistakenly understood to be ?women?, whereas the word <Nisa?a> can also be used for ?those who came later? <Nasee?a>. This word covers all those who come later on such as Son?s Son, Grandchildren, Son?s, Son of Brother, Son?s Son of Sister (i.e. all those who come from the seed of the people allowed to see the woman?s Zeena).
5) <Ma Malakat Aimanukum> (to be dealt with separately)
6) <Ghayr Ulu Al-Arab?a Min Al-Rijal>, this can be used to describe all men who do not have any interest in sexual conduct with the woman (such as a doctor who is giving her birth).
7) Children who do not yet understand the meaning of a woman?s private parts.
8 Striking their feet to reveal their <hidden Zeena>. This is referring to the <Zeena> which we have already identified as all the <Jayb's> with the exception of that which is is on the limbs "Protruding Zeena". This "hidden Zeena" can only be revealed through the striking of the feet if it were used to describe any form of dancing for a woman that causes the revealment of her ?hidden? bodyparts (breast, inner-thighs, and armpits). Such dancing can be found in what is today called ?exotic dancing?, ?belly dancing? and "striptease dancing?.

This is the BEAR MINIMUM that GOD has ORDERED the believing women to abide by with no repercussions or consequences in the hereafter. As for those who wish to have more INSTRUCTIONS as to what is suitable dress code, they do not have to look far
"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being harmed. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.? (33/59)
The instructions above is for the believing women who wish to avoid harm (either social or otherwise) which is caused if they were not fully clothed and may be treated with disrespect or as women who do not abide by GOD?s moral laws (i.e. prostitutes).
It is our duty as believers in the Book to ensure that GOD?s commands and instructions are understood so they may be implemented by people of all places and all times."

To Taj

Prof. Sha7roor did not say "jabe" means "zeena".

He did not!? The following is a piece from the above of Shahroor's

The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

Now, is the following yours, Samia, or Sha7roor's?

he explained it by its meaning in the verse where Allah asked Moses to put his hand in (jabika your jabe), and by the linguistic meaning of its its root.

I don't think so!
Moses was demanded to put his hand in his Jayb +, right? Ok, .. Where do you think Moses put his hand, Samia? In which opening of his body from Sha7roor's list of openings? Have you noticed the prepostion " Fee" "Fee Jaybika" + ..."in your jayb"..If it is the area of breast then "3ala" meaning "on"would be the correct word as "3ala" appeared in , because you cannot use "Fee" which means "in" like the following "in your breast".. How can one put his hands "in" his breasts!? One can put his hand "on" or even "between" but "in" as in "inside"..!? If the Jayb in those ayat could mean the area under the arm then the preposition "ta7ta" would be the correct one it would be like this Ta7ta Jaybika...and not "in" Jaybika.. And now, I cannot imagine that the Jayb could possibly mean the "vagina area <Farj>" !!!??? Would Allah demand such a thing from Moses o!?
How can the "vagina area"= "Farj" be the jayb in any ayah in the Quran whether , or or ...? How can a woman with her khimar cover her "vagina area"= "Farj" !?

From which dictionary does Shahroor bring those meanings? Tha3labah? Jirjani? Have you checked those yourself?

Also, who said knowledgeable people in Arabic language do not buy his talk? It is just the opposite, i.e only people knowledgeable in Arabic do understand him.

Knowledgeable people in Arabic cannot make sense of what he says. And it should not be hard to find out that those meanings don't exist in any dictionary. Tell me, please Samia, has Sha7roor been approved by Al Majma3 Al Lugawey ?

He is Syrian, professor in Mechanical engineering, and a master in Arabic language and linguistics.

He did study engineering in a university in Eastern Europe something like 40 years ago ..but a proffessor? And a master in Arabic language too? From which university did he get his masters degree?

He explains the words in the Qur'aan by their usage in the Qur'aan (hence his differentiation between The Book and The Qur'aan) and by refering to the oldest Arabic dictionary by Abu Fares and the linguistic works of Jirjani and Tha`laba.

Have you seen the Arabic dictionary by Abu Fares,, and all the rest? Did you use them to verify what Shahroor says? On what basis did you buy shahroor's talk? You are responsible to check what you buy. Does it make sense to you that you walk naked in front of your father and brother and son too? If that is ok with you then..

Wa ssalamm

unknownuser

Thank you sister

i must check him out, i never heard of him actually

does he have a web site?

cheers

Salam Ahmed

You can find more about him and from him here

http//www.fykr.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=32&sid=6022cb2d42946ec59ee86f469764e21b

You can listen to him also talking about secularism and history of secularism in the western as well as in the arabic world (in arabic only). Very interesting. I like this guy.

I find his work very interesting and its actually not true that everybody who has some deeper knowledge of the arabic language doesnt take his work serious.

Regards
warda

Thank you sister

I read some of his answers to some questions as well listened to one of his audio confrences and so far he sounds reasonable to me, what I like though that both of us are Civil Engineers, which will make it easy for me to understand him as I believe he will be using logic and common sense through his Quran insights, that logic and common sense he learnt must been gained through his engineering study, the same case with me i believe

Peace to all

Samia

Peace Samia,,

Well Samia,, The people of E'Sham know Shahroor really well,, especially the people of linguistics. However, you seem to care for him more than you care for the truth, so I am not going to say what those gaint linguistics say about Shahroor's interpretations! I suppose you are intelligent enough to, by God's guidance, find out by yourself.

Peace,

A quotian from the book, The nature of the Book, by Dr.Shahroor.

"?And tell the believing women to

Subdue their eyes, and
Keep their private area chaste <Farj>.
They shall not expose their <Zeenatuhun>, except that which is exposed. They shall place their cover on their <Juyoobuhun>, and shall not expose their <Zeentauhun> except to their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters,
<Nisauhun>,
<Ma Malakat Aymanuhun> or
Workers who do not have sexual interest, or
The children who do not yet understand women?s private parts.
8 They shall not strike their feet so it is known what they hide from their <Zeenatuhun>.
All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.? (24/31)
This command has also come down in 24/30 to address the male believers that they should subdue their gaze, and in 24/31 for the female believers that they do the same.
This is the first line of defense for both males and females from wanting and this would imply in today?s society to people we see in the street or even on TV, for the believers will not stare at sights which would make them uncomfortable (if the roles were reversed) but should exercise judgment.
Maintain the chastity has also come before this verse in 24/30 to address the believing men that they should maintain their chastity. The word <Farj> is directly related to the ?private area? or ?genitals? of both the man and the woman. The command in this verse is that women (and men in the previous verse) should PROTECT and CONCEAL their ?private area?.
The implications of this word go beyond merely the exposure of ones private area, but also to the level that protection involves not letting anyone touch or come near. Thus the idea of ?foreplay? and touching or ?oral sex? is AUTOMATICALLY rejected by the Quran for all those who are unmarried and no excuses are given.
The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

The area of the head (mouth, ears, nose) as well as the feet and hands all fall under the EXCEPTION to being covered which is mentioned as <Ma Zahar> in the same verse. <Ma Zahar> is literally translated as "that which protrudes", thus the limbs (head, feet and hands) are all protruding <Zahar> from the body and therefore are exempt from having their <Zeena> which is the <Jayb> from being covered.
It is worth noting that a woman's stomach and back are NOT part of the <Zeena> and can be revealed if one wished to do so with no implications of "Right" or "Wrong".
It is upto the believing women to ensure that all these areas known as <Zeena> are covered and not revealed to anyone except 1. Husband, 2. Father, 3. Husband?s Father, 4. Son, 5. Husband?s Son, 6. Brother, 7. Brother?s Son, 8. Sister?s Son.
Some people may think that this allows a woman to appear entirely naked in front of the above list. The answer to that is ?yes?, it is not from the Halal or Haram if this happens, but it will be modesty and cultural norms that make this concept peculiar.

It is CRITICAL to note that the list of men to whom a woman can reveal her <Zeena> does NOT include her (Uncle, Son from Suckling, Brother from Suckling, Mother?s Husband, Daughter?s Husband and Sister?s Husband) EVEN THOUGHT these people are "Mahram's" whom she is forbidden from marrying (see sura # 4 for the full "Mahram" list).
This new understanding implies that some men may still have a sexual drive or desire for a woman even though they are her "Mahram's" which she is forbidden from marrying. Thus she is NOT to reveal her <Zeena> in their presence.

This understanding of <Zeena> will force most Fiqh scholars to re-examine their understanding that the <Zeena> is merely ornaments or make-up, but it is something much more which only a limited few are allowed to see (or else the Mahram?s in Sura # 4 must never see a woman if she has make-up or jewelry on).
4) The next word for those who may see a woman?s <Zeena> is described by the word <NISAUHUN>.
This word has been mistakenly understood to be ?women?, whereas the word <Nisa?a> can also be used for ?those who came later? <Nasee?a>. This word covers all those who come later on such as Son?s Son, Grandchildren, Son?s, Son of Brother, Son?s Son of Sister (i.e. all those who come from the seed of the people allowed to see the woman?s Zeena).
5) <Ma Malakat Aimanukum> (to be dealt with separately)
6) <Ghayr Ulu Al-Arab?a Min Al-Rijal>, this can be used to describe all men who do not have any interest in sexual conduct with the woman (such as a doctor who is giving her birth).
7) Children who do not yet understand the meaning of a woman?s private parts.
8 Striking their feet to reveal their <hidden Zeena>. This is referring to the <Zeena> which we have already identified as all the <Jayb's> with the exception of that which is is on the limbs "Protruding Zeena". This "hidden Zeena" can only be revealed through the striking of the feet if it were used to describe any form of dancing for a woman that causes the revealment of her ?hidden? bodyparts (breast, inner-thighs, and armpits). Such dancing can be found in what is today called ?exotic dancing?, ?belly dancing? and "striptease dancing?.

This is the BEAR MINIMUM that GOD has ORDERED the believing women to abide by with no repercussions or consequences in the hereafter. As for those who wish to have more INSTRUCTIONS as to what is suitable dress code, they do not have to look far
"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being harmed. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.? (33/59)
The instructions above is for the believing women who wish to avoid harm (either social or otherwise) which is caused if they were not fully clothed and may be treated with disrespect or as women who do not abide by GOD?s moral laws (i.e. prostitutes).
It is our duty as believers in the Book to ensure that GOD?s commands and instructions are understood so they may be implemented by people of all places and all times."

To Taj

Prof. Sha7roor did not say "jabe" means "zeena".

He did not!? The following is a piece from the above of Shahroor's

The <Zeena> of a woman is identified in the same verse when GOD commands her to ?cover? her Zeena which is the <Jayb>.
<JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else).

Now, is the following yours, Samia, or Sha7roor's?

he explained it by its meaning in the verse where Allah asked Moses to put his hand in (jabika your jabe), and by the linguistic meaning of its its root.

I don't think so!
Moses was demanded to put his hand in his Jayb +, right? Ok, .. Where do you think Moses put his hand, Samia? In which opening of his body from Sha7roor's list of openings? Have you noticed the prepostion " Fee" "Fee Jaybika" + ..."in your jayb"..If it is the area of breast then "3ala" meaning "on"would be the correct word as "3ala" appeared in , because you cannot use "Fee" which means "in" like the following "in your breast".. How can one put his hands "in" his breasts!? One can put his hand "on" or even "between" but "in" as in "inside"..!? If the Jayb in those ayat could mean the area under the arm then the preposition "ta7ta" would be the correct one it would be like this Ta7ta Jaybika...and not "in" Jaybika.. And now, I cannot imagine that the Jayb could possibly mean the "vagina area <Farj>" !!!??? Would Allah demand such a thing from Moses !?
How can the "vagina area"= "Farj" be the jayb in any ayah in the Quran whether , or or ...? How can a woman with her khimar cover her "vagina area"= "Farj" !?

From which dictionary does Shahroor bring those meanings? Tha3labah? Jirjani? Have you checked those yourself?

Also, who said knowledgeable people in Arabic language do not buy his talk? It is just the opposite, i.e only people knowledgeable in Arabic do understand him.

Knowledgeable people in Arabic cannot make sense of what he says. And it should not be hard to find out that those meanings don't exist in any dictionary. Tell me, please Samia, has Sha7roor been approved by Al Majma3 Al Lugawey ?

He is Syrian, professor in Mechanical engineering, and a master in Arabic language and linguistics.

He did study engineering in a university in Eastern Europe something like 40 years ago ..but a proffessor? And a master in Arabic language too? From which university did he get his masters degree?

He explains the words in the Qur'aan by their usage in the Qur'aan (hence his differentiation between The Book and The Qur'aan) and by refering to the oldest Arabic dictionary by Abu Fares and the linguistic works of Jirjani and Tha`laba.

Have you seen the Arabic dictionary by Abu Fares,, and all the rest? Did you use them to verify what Shahroor says? On what basis did you buy shahroor's talk? You are responsible to check what you buy. Does it make sense to you that you walk naked in front of your father and brother and son too? If that is ok with you then..

Wa ssalamm

Assalamu 3alaikum ya TAJ

I do not understand what you mean by (I care for him more than I care for the truth!!) Why would I care for him? And how don't I care for the truth? I read his books and I liked his methodology. I may disagree with some of his conclusions, but there was no occasion to speak about that. So please do not jump to conclusions and try to belittle others, and mostly do not be judgemental about people you know little about (me in this case)..

I see that you quote from a translation of the book, and since I read the book in its original language, all I can say is that this translation is very poor.

You highlighted a sentence (supposedly a verse) saying (to cover their zeena) "which is their jayb". Actually the verse does not say that, but it says (to cover their jaybs).

As for the dictionaries he used, I do know them, but lisanul3arab suffies to find the meaning of jayb. Again he did not say it meant "any opening with two sides" whatever that means! He said "thanyat folds". He also analyses the word by the root system (I do not understand why any linguist should have a problem here).

As for the verse of Moses, he confirmed his understanding by the other verse where Allah says to Moses " wadmim yadaka ila jana7ik"; Since jana7 is "wing", and if Moses was to "enter" his hand into his jayb (in the first verse), therefore jayb is the opening of the dress below the neck and the hand will pass under the arm "jana7". If you then want to understand it as another part of his body, this is your problem, not Sha7roor's.

Who are the people of "almajma3 allughawy"? I mean, where are they, what are they doing and what is their output? They ever failed to produce one dictionary!! They can't even produce new Arabic technical words to keep pace with the fast discoveries in the various fields of knowledge!! I am a translator and I know their unforgiven shortcoming as we strauggle with new vocabulary. Who elects them? On what criterea? When was the last time they held a meeting, and what was their last contribution to the Arabic language? Good for Dr Sha7roor he is not one of them.

I did not say he holds a Master degree in Arabic. I meant he is master in Arabic.

You also said that Elsham linguists..etc..etc. I only know Arab linguists, irrespective of their nationalities.

Wassalam

unknownuser

Salam Samia,

.........I read his books and I liked his methodology. I may disagree with some of his conclusions, but there was no occasion to speak about that....
......
I see that you quote from a translation of the book, and since I read the book in its original language, all I can say is that this translation is very poor.

Very well said! it is actually his methodology that is really very interesting with this new undestanding of what should be "tarteel" of the Quran. And I agree with you about this translation dilemma. Most of people work on poorly translated texts and this is where most of the debate takes place but inchallah with your expertise and input, we will all benefit and learn.
Peace. Myr.

unknownuser

Salam Warda,

Dr. Shahrour is the best of the best!-) I had a chance to talk to him on phone last year when I was working with a team translating his book, he is cool, open, and I like a lot his objectivity. I haven't seen him once having that language on "sects" and what each group is doing (the labeling habit that most of people have when they want to refute other schools of thought). He has a website www.shahrour.org.

HOpe the above helps.
Peace. Myr.

Peace Myr,

Wow, I can imagine thats it quite a hard task to translate his book into english! I have great respect for u doing so, really. Is the result of your work what we can see here on fm http//www.free-minds.org/books/shahroor.htm ?

Regards
warda

Thank you for your kind words. No I am not involved with any translation for free-minds. It is a completely different team. You are right, it is very difficult to translate his book to English because sometimes you may translate but you may feel that you are not truely conveying the author's understanding. I am not a translator and I think Samia can explain better this dilemma of translating from Arabic to English without losing the author's interest but inchallah slowly but surely we will try to come up with something acceptable to the author. Peace. Myr.

Samia

Salam Myr

Thanks for your kind words and understanding.
Since I read his first book "alkitaab wal-Qur'aan" in 1999, I kept thinking of translating it, because I believe that it is a valuable source of teaching people how to read - and understand - the Qur'aan. Unfotunately, I did not find the time to.

Yes I agree that translating his book is quite challenging, especially that it is based on Arabic linguistics , sociolinguistics, word morphology or "sarf" and root system.

But by whom was the translation on this thread done?

SwedenMajidah

Salam all,

I will only say that it's terrible and it's annoys me that women in some areas/countries have to cover themselves up so much due to men's bad behaviour of looking at women >(

So this is our destiny, to hide for men's eyes!?

Insha Allah in this summer I will have a trip to Abu Dhabi, do I have to wear veil there? How they look on white women who don't wear veils?

Peace Sis Maria

KGB

The women who chose to cover themseleves have no problem doing so because its their culture and tradition. I just respect their traditions and culture. I have never been to Abu Dhabi or Dubai still know from that they are very much westernized and there are plenty of women working in businesses and they are not required to wear the traditional dresses. I have seen topless women in public which was the most ugly and disgusting scene for me.