Suggestion for Layth and Mods : Moderated Debates
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Peace all. Just for clarification,this phrase 'for or against'....Is this like bushes' 'youre either with us or against us'? .....In a positive critical discussion do we have to start off from 'specific representative parties',and 'entrenched positions'? And is there going to be 'branding',jingoism,and sectarianism in these discussions....Or critical study of the quran?....If people just want to defend their books from faith,or subjective means,then i dont see a lot being achieved....unless people are brave and open-minded enough to handle some home-truths..... elektro
Peace all. ps; no offense to the moderators,but they have not even addressed the jaxal/dq/banning issues with the other members of the forum....You really expect moderated debates to be 'impartial' and competent.....(im not saying the moderators are corrupt or intentionally bad,but i dont think they have the time or professionalism to moderate effectively....If they prove me wrong,i will apologise and stand corrected. ) -
Enquirereace all. Just for clarification,this phrase 'for or against'....Is this like bushes' 'youre either with us or against us'? .....
One is 'for and against' , the other is 'with and against' . You needn't be 'for' a thing in order to be 'with' a thing. I'm not for giving drunks 'curative measures of alcohol' as part of my taxes, but I do it anyway, so i'm 'with' it.
In a positive critical discussion do we have to start off from 'specific representative parties',and 'entrenched positions'?
This is a DEBATE so that people who claim certain things (like the quran doesnt have bla bla bla, as I recall one chap crowing some weeks ago) will have to prove their points and not use the forum as a place for verbal defacation.
And is there going to be 'branding',jingoism,and sectarianism in these discussions....Or critical study of the quran?
Or for that matter, dirty 'hit and run' tactician? People who come in with full of slogans but refuse to entertain even simple questions. We can't have such losers, you're right.
....If people just want to defend their books from faith,or subjective means,then i dont see a lot being achieved....unless people are brave and open-minded enough to handle some home-truths.....
You wouldn't see a lot being achieved because your goal is the dismantling of al-quraan and your ill-fated attempt in the contradiction thread, I can see why you're not relishing the idea that your answers will be checked for relevance ) . As for being brave, I think the first person who needs your advice is yourself and then Lote-Tree and Danish. You three have been coming and peddling your ideologies but think yourselves too high-and-mighty to respond to us religious plebs.
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Enquirereace all. Just for clarification,this phrase 'for or against'....Is this like bushes' 'youre either with us or against us'? .....
One is 'for and against' , the other is 'with and against' . You needn't be 'for' a thing in order to be 'with' a thing. I'm not for giving drunks 'curative measures of alcohol' as part of my taxes, but I do it anyway, so i'm 'with' it.peace mquran,
i think what enquirer meant was that there shouldn't be 2 FIXED positions. For or against.It isn't always black and white, so I think everyone should be able to post their understanding without having to worry about where they stand.
Also agree with enquirer (kind of) that the purpose of the debates shouldn't be defending the Quran, but acquiring a better understanding of what it says and what it is.
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Peace mquran. I guessed rightly you had a hidden agenda when you suggested these moderated debates....Male intuition......or should i say revelation...
Your subjective opinion may suggest 'hit and run'....but i try to discuss when there is some benefit in the discussion,where the discussion isnt personalised,and when there is some civility,or compatibility in the discussion...If you feel thats dishonest or running,then thats your subjective opinion....No offense but i dont think there are many who are open-minded enough to even entertain a constructive debate about the quran....just as some sunnis cannot debate about hadith without being emotional,or some christians cannot debate about jesus' exclusive divinity without getting irrational/emotional etc....I think you underestimate the fact that there are very valid arguments against a lot of 'quranic' understandings'... In your discussions on the forum with AB,you guys are barely civil,and are often not constructive....You think i want to waste my time with baseless argumentation?... You seem a very intelligent guy from your posts,but i think some of this intelligence is mis-directed.... I dont see why you have a burning need to prove the quran to be 'infallible'?....Why dont you follow its goood advices instead? I notice that a lot of people here just use whatever interpretation suits them,or their intellect/current mindset.......thats very subjective....I dont have too much problem with people doing that,but then allow others the liberty of their 'subjective' opinions too.
For the record,im not into post-mordernism or moral relativism....The closest you can get to pigeon-holing me is a 'humanist'...
Peace all. Ps;i wish you peace,no hard feelings...Just gotta say it like it is sometimes. ) -
Phoenix think what enquirer meant was that there shouldn't be 2 FIXED positions. For or against.
This is a very interesting position coming from Enquirer, my dear Phoenix. Enquirer came with a very strong 'do you really believe bla bla bla' to me some weeks ago. His position was already very fixed.
My position vis-a-vis al-quraan divinity is black and white. I believe it's of divine origin and free of error. Anyone who believes this notion is incorrect will then take the opposing camp. People unsure can always sit it out.
It isn't always black and white, so I think everyone should be able to post their understanding without having to worry about where they stand.
Not always, but sometimes it is and this is where debates come in.
Also agree with enquirer (kind of) that the purpose of the debates shouldn't be defending the Quran, but acquiring a better understanding of what it says and what it is.
Funnily, he doesn't mind attacking the Quran but runs and hides when people defend it.
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Peace mquran. I guessed rightly you had a hidden agenda when you suggested these moderated debates....Male intuition......or should i say revelation...
My agenda isn't hidden. It is quite simply to stop the misinformation perpetrated by yourself and your associates. Why would I hide this agenda at all?
Your subjective opinion may suggest 'hit and run'....but i try to discuss when there is some benefit in the discussion,where the discussion isnt personalised,and when there is some civility,or compatibility in the discussion...If you feel thats dishonest or running,then thats your subjective opinion....
So if someone else calls you to defend your allegations, will you then step up? Why don't you kindly tell me how to address you? I will address you however you choose, as long as you step up and defend your allegations.
No offense but i dont think there are many who are open-minded enough to even entertain a constructive debate about the quran....just as some sunnis cannot debate about hadith without being emotional,or some christians cannot debate about jesus' exclusive divinity without getting irrational/emotional etc....I think you underestimate the fact that there are very valid arguments against a lot of 'quranic' understandings'...
Are there? Do you want to bring them foward in a moderated debate or will you keep inhabiting your little hiding place?
In your discussions on the forum with AB,you guys are barely civil,and are often not constructive....
I return the civility of my discussion partner. If you were true, you would comment on actual views and pro or against, but what you do is intellectual cowardice. You whine 'oh , you two disagree, so even though i havent the fainted what you're on about, you both must be wrong'. That's is quite laughable.
You think i want to waste my time with baseless argumentation?... You seem a very intelligent guy from your posts,but i think some of this intelligence is mis-directed.... I dont see why you have a burning need to prove the quran to be 'infallible'?....Why dont you follow its goood advices instead?
You don't mind making accusations but when it comes to defense, you think its 'baseless'? That's a contradiction.
My intention is to ensure that the people who come in here afresh have a fair chance at seeing just how al-quraan handles argumentation. You're against that because your need is for people to join you in your disbelief.
I notice that a lot of people here just use whatever interpretation suits them,or their intellect/current mindset.......thats very subjective....I dont have too much problem with people doing that,but then allow others the liberty of their 'subjective' opinions too.
Really, do you want to debate that point , in a moderated fashion, of course.
For the record,im not into post-mordernism or moral relativism....The closest you can get to pigeon-holing me is a 'humanist'...
Peace all. Ps;i wish you peace,no hard feelings...Just gotta say it like it is sometimes.I wouldn't even call you a humanist because humanists are generally people with integrity and decency. Humanists whom I've met and read about don't do hit and runs.
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...but in any given issue crying foul will always be there.
I see what you mean. A debate hasn't even started and... )This is a debate that will be agreed upon between the 2 members from the get go. No agreement, no debate. It's futile to argue about a debate that doesn't exist. brickwall
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Peace mquran. I guess its time for me to 'hide and run' again... But only from your posts my friend...As i have told you before,i will not make the mistake i made previously by assuming people are ready for a constructive,unemotional debate on the quran,or that you and me are 'compatible' for a constructive debate....I really dont necessarily mind what your or anybodies beliefs are.....Its behaviour that matters to me.....As for your subjective opinions you pass on me,danish and lote-tree....Well i dont think we are going to loose much sleep over someone criticising our characters from the vantage point of a computer....
peace all. ps;if i dont adress you for a while,dont take offense...i think its best for everybodies peace....And that is what islam is supposed to be about....peace..... -
Peace mquran. I guess its time for me to 'hide and run' again... But only from your posts my friend...As i have told you before,i will not make the mistake i made previously by assuming people are ready for a constructive,unemotional debate on the quran,or that you and me are 'compatible' for a constructive debate....I really dont necessarily mind what your or anybodies beliefs are.....Its behaviour that matters to me.....
No of course not, how can we be ready for a guy like you, who posts and posts but never answers? Behaviour matters, huh? Good stuff. What do you call of behaviour of people who make statements , commit others to answering but runs and hides thereafter?
As for your subjective opinions you pass on me,danish and lote-tree....Well i dont think we are going to loose much sleep over someone criticising our characters from the vantage point of a computer....
I really don't care. But to the best of my ability, I will challenge your campaign of misinformation.
Also, I really didn't expect you, Danish or Lote-tree to EVER step up for debate. It's not just your ability to be honest and decent. People like you will always hide and never be upfront.
peace all. ps;if i dont adress you for a while,dont take offense...i think its best for everybodies peace....And that is what islam is supposed to be about....peace.....
Islam's peace comes AFTER conflict and victory over mischief, not as a result of lying down and taking fecal matter from the likes of you.
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peace
thanks to mquran for your answer about the justifications.
and
those expressions related to the last episode of the digestion + the ' you no integrity and decency.. etc ' stuff is what the mods had to delete and send some lines to the user reminding the rules of etiquette needed online and offline. -
Peace Elena and all. There are two main offenders when it comes to using questionable phraseology,and questioning of integrity etc........im sure the fourm knows who these two are...Im not really too concerned what they say to me,i can overlook that....But it annoys me when they persistently use this bad language/questioning of others beliefs routine, with others who disagree with them. (and they even argue with each other ).)....And then some of the mods/admins have the audacity to sweep the jaxal/dq/banning issues under the carpet,while letting others,and these two get away with persistent offenses...Is that quranic justice?...Thats why i say some of the mods/admins are not professional,or competent...No offense... ) Just saying it like it is...
peace all. ps;these are not the only two offenders... i think the forum needs more tolerance,and more of this; group -
Peace all. By the way,i dont really want anyone banned....Just a bit more civil behaviour would be nice.....Especially from guys advocating 'quranic' justice......Ask idol-free for ideas on 'behaviour modifications' and peaceful behaviour........That brother knows what hes talking about... bravo
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salaam
I really don't care. But to the best of my ability, I will challenge your campaign of misinformation
.Surely then you dont need the moderators. Let people judge for themselves as to who is truthful.
And then some of the mods/admins have the audacity to sweep the jaxal/dq/banning issues under the carpet,while letting others,and these two get away with persistent offenses...Is that quranic justice?...Thats why i say some of the mods/admins are not professional,or competent...No offense... Just saying it like it is...
I agree with you on this
think the forum needs more tolerance,and more of this;
and I think most would on this
regards
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What do you call of behaviour of people who make statements , commit others to answering but runs and hides thereafter?
I call it the "master/student syndrome with a touch of leyla/majnu play".
As for your subjective opinions you pass on me,danish and lote-tree....Well i dont think we are going to loose much sleep over someone criticising our characters from the vantage point of a computer....
But to the best of my ability, I will challenge your campaign of misinformation.So far you've done nothing but bicker and sob.
Also, I really didn't expect you, Danish or Lote-tree to EVER step up for debate. It's not just your ability to be honest and decent. People like you will always hide and never be upfront.
Take the "de" and "dis" out of debate and discuss, and you'll find your established mindframe which makes people like me 'hit and run'.
Islam's peace comes AFTER conflict and victory over mischief, not as a result of lying down and taking fecal matter from the likes of you.
You and Ahmed seem to be enjoying the flavour the most.
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LOL
I guess this thread turned to be entertaining, thanks a lot boys and girls
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And by the way, Mr. mquran, since you are promulgating the debate issue, I'll bet that the first ones to deviate and debar prospective and deligent discussions will be you and Ahmed along with a few encroachments that barge in from time to time.
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LOL
You're a classic Danish, and sure lucky that I like you