Whats the Consensus on the Calendar ?

JHamza

Calendar

Muharram;Sept-Oct.(Beginning on the New Moon closest to the Autumn Equinox)
Safar;Oct-Nov.
Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal;Nov-Dec
Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni;Dec-Jan.
Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal;Jan-Feb.
Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni;Feb-Mar.
Rajab al Murajjab;Mar-Apr.
Sha`ban;Apr-May.
Ramadan;May-Jun.(Month of Heat?)
Shawwal al-Mukarram;Jun-Jul.
Dhul al Qida;Jul-Aug.
Dhul Hijja;Aug-Sept.

13th Intercalary MonthRajab II/Rajab al Murajjab

The year 1427 would therefore begin according to this calendar on Sept. 22nd.

The Hebrew Calendar begins on Sept 22nd this yr which is on the night before the autumn equinox..The only way I can see for the delaying until Oct 22nd for the start of the new year would be that the present Jewish Calendar is wrong on determing the date of the new year...
Im not saying this is the correct version,only that this is what it would look like if the year begins on or near the autumn equinox,others argue that it begins in the spring with Ramadan being Nov/Dec.Ive read that Ramadan means heat and that it means autumn,which is it? Because if it means heat then the spring timing of may june like in the above calendar makes since,if it means autumn then the Nov/Dec time frame fits better.

This one is with the year beginning in Spring like the Hebrew religous Calendar

Muharram*; (Mar/Apr) (Beginning on the New Moon nearest the Spring Equinox)
Safar*; (Apr/May)
Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal *; (May/Jun)
Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni*; (Jun/Jul)
Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal; (Jul/Aug)
Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni; (Aug/Sept)
Rajab al Murajjab; (Sep/Oct)
Sha`ban; (Oct/Nov)
Ramadan; (Nov/Dec)(month of Autumn?)
Shawwal al-Mukarram; (Dec/Jan)
Dhul al Qida; (Jan/Feb)
Dhul Hijja; (Feb/Mar)

***13th Intercalary Month Rajab II/Rajab al Murajjab.

The year 1427 would therefore begin according to this calendar on Mrch 20...........

JHamza

Never mind I found out that the word ramadan means scorching heat.. http//www.muhajabah.com/ramadan-faq.htm therefore it has to refer to a summer time frame..like in this calendar

Muharram;Sept-Oct(On the Autumn Equinox)
Safar;Oct-Nov.
Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal;Nov-Dec
Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni;Dec-Jan.
Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal;Jan-Feb.
Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni;Feb-Mar.
Rajab al Murajjab;Mar-Apr.
Sha`ban;Apr-May.
Ramadan;May-Jun.(scorching heat)
Shawwal al-Mukarram;Jun-Jul.
Dhul al Qida;Jul-Aug.
Dhul Hijja;Aug-Sept.

The_Sufi

It also means Burning and could refer to the month of Burning which is Chislev.

JHamza

It also means Burning and could refer to the month of Burning which is Chislev.

The original word meant Scoarching Heat though..which in June its very hot... http//www.muhajabah.com/ramadan-faq.htm

How can Ramadan fall in Chislev if the calendar is stable(Im not saying its not)?When Yom Kippur which Muhammad is said to have adopted as Ashura always falls in Sept/Oct? This would mean that Ramadan would fall in May/Jun.exactly 8 months after Muharram...see calendar below

Muharram;Sept-Oct.(Yom Kippur is 0n Tishri 10,Ashura falls on Muharram 10-Tishri is always in Sep/Oct)
Safar;Oct-Nov.
Rabi`a I/Rabi al-Awal;Nov-Dec.
Rabi`a II/Rabi al-Thanni;Dec-Jan.
Jumada I/Jumada al-Awal;Jan-Feb.
Jumada II/Jumada al-Thanni;Feb-Mar.
Rajab al Murajjab;Mar-Apr.
Sha`ban;Apr-May.
Ramadan;May-Jun.(Month of Heat?)
Shawwal al-Mukarram;Jun-Jul.
Dhul al Qida;Jul-Aug.
Dhul Hijja;Aug-Sept.

In comparison,Hanukah always falls on Chislev 25th,and Chislev is always in Nov/Dec ,Chislev is also the 3rd month of the year not the 9th month as is Ramadan,the Jewish 9th month is Sivan,which is always in May/Jun.For Ramadan to fall in Nov/Dec it would have to be the 3rd month of the Yr,which it isnt.
And If Ramadan was in Nov/Dec that would place Ashura the 10th of Muharram in Mar/Apr,then Ashura wouldnt be on the same date as the date Muhammad adopted that the Jews kept(Yom Kippur) which like I said always falls in Sept/Oct. So either the Ramadan story of it falling in or around Chislev is wrong or the story of Muhammad adopting Ashura the fast of the 10th of the Jews(Yom Kippur)is wrong..We cant believe both,if the calendar is stable and doesnt float.The only way we can accpet that Ramadan fell around Hanakkuh and that Ashura falls in the 1st month and that month not coincide with Tishri any longer is if the Caendar floats and is not stable..

Jewish Calendar
Tishri(Sp/Oc) Yom Kippur on the 10th(Muhammad is said to adopted as Ashura/Ashura is in Muharram)
Heshvan (Oc/No)
Kislev (No/De) Hannakuh on the 25th(Ramadan is 8 months away from Muharram,not 2 months)
Tevet (De/Ja)
Shevat (Ja/Fe)
Adar (Fe/Mr)
Nisan (Mr/Ap)
Iyar (Ap/My)
Sivan (My/Jn)
Tammuz (Jn/Ju)
Av (Ju/Au)
Elul (Au/Sp)

JHamza

Another proposal for a general not religious Calendar

Tishri(Sp/Oc) *Dhul Hijja(same as the Jewish month with the feast of Tabernacles - a pilgrimage festival)
Heshvan (Oc/No) Muharram
Kislev (No/De) Safar
Tevet (De/Ja) Rabi al awal
Shevat (Ja/Fe) Rabi al thani
Adar (Fe/Mr) Jumada al awal(First Spring)
Nisan (Mr/Ap) Jumada al thani(Second Spring)
Iyar (Ap/My) Rajab al Murajjab
Sivan (My/Jn) Sha'ban(same name as the Hebrew)
Tammuz (Jn/Ju) *Ramadan(moon of scorching heat)
Av (Ju/Au) *Shawwal al Mukarram
Elul(Au/Sp) *Dhul al Qida

Based on name comparisons,timing of ramadan,and meanings of Arab months.
*Restricted months of Quran. Pilgrimage would occur in these months beginning on the full moon and last 3 days.
Full Moon of Scorching Heat and the 10 day Fast would fall in late Ramadan or Early Shawwal al Mukkaram,based on when the full moon after the summer solstice occurs.

The only problem is that months would have to be 30 and some 31 days instead of 29 and 30 unless an extra month is added every 3 yrs.But if some months were 30 and some 31 there would not be a need for an extra month or and extra day every 3 yrs but there would be a need for an extra day if you adopted the same format as the Gregorian Calendar.

progod

The same grammatical rules that I used to justify that Makkah is not a city in the Quran and that bakkah is not a city either, definitely allows that ramadaan is not the Arab month that we are all used to. It follows the same form as nasayaan and shana'aan(in th Quran) that implies an intensive or during action. So Ramadaan does means 'intense heat, or lasting heat' and 'shah-r' being a month or a period oof 30 days definitely allows us to interpret our fasting in the Quran to be during a month of intense or lasting heat, and it was such a month in which the Quran was revealed.

With that said, now comes the issue of the pilgrimage. Analyzes Ahillat is a broket plural which can be for alot of different forms 'fa'eel, fi'aal, etc'

I only have a couple examples in mind 'hilaal and wareedat'. With that said haleel could also be the singular of ahillat. Hilaal can also me the equavalent of muhaallat (form III). However, I have never seen the verbal noun of the 3rd form put into a broken plural. I have never seen any verbal nound put into a broken plural. So if anyone can find examples of this, as well as the evocative 'an' overpowering the possessive and propostion cases (jarr) I would appreciate that.

I will be able to give my arguments more backing and can open us up to the more realistic and universal application of the Quran. The next step is finding out which months should be the 4 months of pilgrimage, or if we are allowed to come to a consensus on them on our own.

Godbless,
Anwar

phoenix1

peace

Is the Islamic Calendar proof of the "outdatedness"( o) of the Quran?

A solar calendar works perfectly fine if you ask me.
But i don't think we have a good/complete understanding of what the quran is trying to say. We either do not know enough yet, or we are making things too complicated when they are not.
I've always been confused about this calendar thing and what i can't accept is that something this (seemingly) unecessary and complicated can come from the quran. There has to be more-or less- to this than we think.

Elke

Peace Phoenix

"outdatedness" (happily u put it in brackets)... of quran can for sure not be applied to natural phenomena. It's rather the lack of right understanding as well as the institutionalization of religion that caused the calender problem.

BTW, IMO quran is not outdated at all in the attitudes/actions it forbids, only in the punishments and sometimes rules which may have been adapted to the society of bedouins some 1500 years ago...

lk

phoenix1

It's rather the lack of right understanding as well as the institutionalization of religion that caused the calender problem.

i agree.

progod

Peace,

Here is the issue as I see it. The Quran is not outdated but we have been looking at this all wrong. The Quran used words like Ramadaan, Kaabah, Mecca and Bakka and Holy months being ma'loomat, and ahillat knowing that the Arabs at the time or those focused on their practices could either choose the universal application of the Quran or not. The Quran says that it also leads astray but it only leads astray those who have wrong in their hearts. It would seem that most of the Arabs of Muhammad's day, or atleast the ones that won out, had wrong in their hearts so they opted for the meanings of words like Makkah and Kaabah that confirmed their established Arab traditions. But this was wrong.

In accordance with the Old Arabic language that the Quran is written in

Ramadaan = A season or lasting time of Heat

shah-r = Literally all the periods of time that it might take from one new moon to the next. It literally is a standard of time based off of a lunation which can vary from 29.27 to about 29.83 days. This calculation takes into account 24 hour days and not sightings of the moon based on days that start from sundown to sundown like the jewish day or sunrise to sunrise like the Quranic day. In which case if the moon was sited during the day time on the 29.27th day the next day wouldn't start until sundown making the month 30 days. So depending on where this 29.27 to 29.83 days cycle ends (and was cited) an old-school Arabic shahr could have been 29 or 30 days.
The Quran prefers the 30 day opinion, when it equates missing a day's fast with feeding a needy person and mising 2 months of fast with feeding 60 people. 584 and 2184 "And an acceptable substitute for those who are able to rough through a daily-fast is the feeding of someone in need."

Ka'bat = true honor/glory
Makkat= true destruction
Bakkat= High rank, a cut above the rest, distinguished, crowding
Ahillat= Things that are selected to be consecrated. from haleel, from maa uhilla bihi (2174).
Ma'loomat= tu'lamu= "is to be (should be) dinstinguished, well known, discerned"

So if we put all the pieces together we don't need the old Arabic calendar. Because during the hot seasons in any place that we may be we are to fast for 30 days.

"God, with true glory(al-ka'bata), will make (the)sacred houses ((the)sanctuaries Al-baitul-haraamu) an upliftment for mankind" 597

"They will ask you about the consecrations (ahillatun, from haleel, from maa uhilla bihi 2174)

The consecrations are to be timed for the people and not at random during the Hajj, and instead of that whole entering through the back doors thing that verse can be understood as 'By the pilgrimage! Righteousness isn't entering the houses of God just to make your appearences there(bi'an ta'too al-buyoota bidhuhoorihaa). The righteous individual is the one who is worried about his well-being (attaqaa). So go through the doors of these houses (al-buyoota) and worry about God so that you can succeed." 2189

"The season(s) of pilgrimage should be (are to be) months that will (are to) be well-known, distinguished, discernable" 2197 That means we can chose them, and that we should make them clear and widely known.

"The count of (30 day) months as far as God is concerned is to be 12 (no more no less). This was his decree the day he made the heavens and the earth. Four of them should be (are to be) sacred, and that will be (is to be) how it stands. (the standing order/rule)." 936

In a year there are 365 days which means 12.16 or 12 months and 1/6 of a month. But the Quran established the counting in UNITS. When you count in Units for instance if your going through the units of a book and you are half way through Unit 11 and I ask you "what unit are you in in the book?" Your going to say Unit 11, because I set the measurement in Units, even if the book has chapters and sections. There can be 12 months and 6 days in a year, but if I ask you how many months are in this year, what will your answer be? 12. That is why 5 extra days don't matter. We would love for the world to be even in everything but that is not how it is. And honestly why should it matter?

"And when you are fully vulnerable (bi batni makkata(literally "in the belly of perdition/destruction)), it is God who would hold your forces (yadhand,support,power, backing) back from them and their forces back from you, discounting (min ba'da an, in its sense of ibti&aadan an) the possiblity (or on top of the possibility) that he may empower you so that you can defeat them." 4824

(There are times when both sides in times of struggle are on edge and damages may be fatal to both sides, but it is God through his book (and us following his decrees) and through his divine will that maintains those tentative times of peace that we may need and appreciate)

Taking all this into account the Arabs could have understood Makkah as the city of Makkah and The Ka'bah as the Holy shrine in Mecca. They could have, with reason, kept the traditional months of pilgrimage as they were widely known. (which unkoranically they preferred to understand as literal lunations, and not its other meanings as periods of 29 days or periods of 30 days)

And they could have grammatically and through their unkoranic understanding continued to understand ahillat as moon phases. But with linguistic analysis and analyzing the Quran they didn't have to. The Arabs of that time had all of the tools to understand the Quran right if they would have analyzed the Quran more. As well as those who learned Classical Arabic later and paid more attention to Christian, Jewish, or traditional Pre-Quranic Arab trends of thought. As well as the Rumorous literature of the Hadeeth. I'm sure some Arabs had it right on, but the righteous are always few, amongst all people. In addition to that speakers of languages are often tricked by their own language, often not recognizing the subtle differences that 1 word can have depending on the context, or the different meanings a word can take on.

You can easily take a word like 'light' in english and use it in a way that would confuse the native and make him confront the fact that he has become accustomed to using one word in a number of different ways, all of which he was not fully-conscious of. That is why the dictionaries like lisaanul-Arab and others, as insightful as they might be are limited by the analytical potential of their authors. Arabs have traditionally used the word shah-r to refer to the period between one hilaal(new crescent) and the other, but have always just associated it with the new moon. Like an english speaker might not realize that a month can also be 28 or 29 or 31 days, because he usually associates it with the average 30. Or he may not realize other subtleties because he usually thinks of the word in the context of the names April, may or june. Most times he automically assumes all of the meanings and then deduces later as he learns more from the context of the conversations.

But over all despite the mistakes of our forefathers we now have the correct understanding which we see frees takes alot of burden off of us.

Godlbess,
Anwar

I still would like it if anyone could come up with examples were the evocative 'a' in bakkata and makkata can over-ride prepositions like 'bi, fee' or possession constructions (al-idaafat)