Is fluency is spoken & written Arabic necessary ...
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In my experience, its best to just relax and allow al-quraan to fill the etymological gaps.
That's a very correct approach ..
I used to be quite reliant on Parwez's 'lughatul quraan' but now I feel even that can be a suppressor.
Hmmm .. this is exactly what I had in mind about being 'stifled.' Learning Arabic as a second language and then seeking help from the dicitonary to understand the vocabulary of the Qur'aan can narrow one's perception regarding the social or historical context of the passage we are reading at the time. Thus, Arabic as a second language with the lughat constantly for assistance makes 'little knowledge a dangerous thing.' The same can also be said about the mind boggling translations I keep reading by many an unrecognized translators.
Salaam Alaikum and peace ..
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Peace be with you Zainab,
Because of the inevitable problems that come with reading Translations of the qur'aan, I highly recommend that you learn the Arabic language so you can read it the qur'aan in it's original text. It is much less complicated than many people would make it out to be.
Having said that, I do have a suggestion as to HOW to approach your Arabic studying for maximum benefit in the least amount of time and hassle. I need to ask you first what level you are at currently in Arabic? Do you know how to Read Arabic? Meaning, do you know how to read the Arabic script? If so, you are already well on your way. If not, no biggie because the arabic script and alphabet is quite easy and you can learn it in a week.
I'll be waiting to read your reply.
Salaam,
Damon.P.S. I would love to see this thread under a sticky because the relevance of this subject is very, very, very important yet highly underestimated.
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Peace all,
Arabic as second language plus a modern Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan. The correct approach would be to learn CLASSICAL Arabic language + use reputable CLASSICAL Arabic dictionaries (more than one) + study the qur'aanic context of the revelations + determine the meaning of a word in al-qur'aan according to what al-qur'aan defines as its meaning + study all occurrences of the same words or themes in al-qur'aan + compare at least 10 different translations + use our mind, reason, and knowledge + discuss with people of knowledge + follow the best meaning.
The social and historical context of a passage determined from the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors can be dangerously misleading and is unreliable and should not be used to determine the meanings of qur'aanic words/verses. The correct context of the qur'aanic passages/verses can be determined from al-qur'aan only. Majority of the translators rely heavily on the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad for translation of al-qur'aan and also rely on the post qur'aanic modern Arabic meanings of the qur'aanic words and their personal desires and egos, thereby completely distorting the original message and causing utter chaos and confusion. That is why no single translator can be blindly/completely/fully trusted to determine the true meaning of Allah's words. Allah repeatedly asks us to use our reason, mind, and knowledge to determine and follow His message.
The necessity of learning the classical Arabic language and using classical Arabic dictionaries to determine the corrrect meaning of al-qur'aan cannot be overemphasized, so we can determine the meaning of Allah's words as was understood by the Arabic people when al-qur'aan was being revealed. The alternative meanings acquired by those words many years after al-qur'aan was revealed cannot be read into the qur'aanic words. Examples are "al-masjid al-aqsa", "al-masjid al-haram", "shahr", "ramadhan", "salat", "zakat", "qiblah", "hajj al-bayt", "makkah", "ummi", "islam" etc.
There was NO physical Masjid Al-Aqsa at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan so "al-masjid al-aqsa" in al-qur'aan could not have referred to that physical building, as it was constructed in the 8th century during the Ummayad dynasty (709-715). Similarly even according to the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors, there was NO physical Masjid Al-Haram at the time of revelation of al-qur'aan. The current Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca was constructed many years after the revelation of al-qur'aan so "al-masjid al-haram" mentioned in al-qur'aan could not have referred to that physical building. Also according to archeological records, there is ZERO evidence of existence of the city of Mecca in the qur'aanic time, so "makkah" in al-qur'aan could not have referred to that city. "Shahr" meant "full moon" in the qur'aanic times, and acquired the meaning of "month" many years after revelation of al-qur'aan.
An analogy in English would be the word "gay" which meant "happy" originally and acquired the meaning "homosexual" around 1920 (ref Wiki Encyclopedia). Hence if we stumble upon an English book from the 16th century mentioning the word "gay" it could not have meant "homosexual".
Brother Damon, I agree with what you said providing we strive to learn the CLASSICAL Arabic language used in al-qur'aan to determine the original meanings of qur'aanic words/verses. You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the inevitable problems that come with reading modern translations of al-qur'aan, and no single modern English translator of al-qur'aan can be fully trusted.
I would advise everyone to please refer to the recent post by brother Ayman at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4790.msg86735#msg86735
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DamonP.S. I would love to see this thread under a sticky because the relevance of this subject is very, very, very important yet highly underestimated.
The reason for this is because while some people claim to be quranic, the reality is that they have embraced modernism or post-modernism but have yet to admit this to themselves. I respect people like Danish who have the guts to admit that they disbelieve, at least we know where they stand.
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Tanveer Arabic as second language plus a modern Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan. The correct approach would be to learn CLASSICAL Arabic language + use reputable CLASSICAL Arabic dictionaries (more than one) + study the qur'aanic context of the revelations + determine the meaning of a word in al-qur'aan according to what al-qur'aan defines as its meaning + study all occurrences of the same words or themes in al-qur'aan + compare at least 10 different translations + use our mind, reason, and knowledge + discuss with people of knowledge + follow the best meaning.
I disagree to 'dangerous' because the vocabulary of al-quraan doesn't include 'modern' words like telephone etc. Al-quraan's vocabulary was subverted by a religious subversion. Deen, taqwa, islam, salaat have all a quranically-explained meaning yet this meaning has been changed by likes the hadith and sunnah. Most translations are unacceptable to me as they use these hadithic meanings.
The necessity of learning the classical Arabic language and using classical Arabic dictionaries to determine the corrrect meaning of al-qur'aan cannot be overemphasized, so we can determine the meaning of Allah's words as was understood by the Arabic people when al-qur'aan was being revealed. The alternative meanings acquired by those words many years after al-qur'aan was revealed cannot be read into the qur'aanic words. Examples are "al-masjid al-aqsa", "al-masjid al-haram", "shahr", "ramadhan", "salat", "zakat", "qiblah", "hajj al-bayt", "makkah", "ummi", "islam" etc.
Classical Arabic helped only half of the way, the rest depended upon the Quran's internal structure.
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Peace,
First of all KGB, you misunderstood, it said that the arabic language was changed not the Quran, you read it wrong, i can't even imagine how you could....
And yes, this, 'you don't arabic so you have no place to critize' card is used a lot. So this has nothing to do with racism, but with grasping every straw so they don't have to accept your information. And some arabs i know also believe they are the 'chosen' ones, but this is in every religion and culture, so nothing special.
And i agree that you need to know arabic. If you want to drive a car, you take effort in learning so you can get your drivers licence. If you want to really study the Quran, you have to learn arabic. This is a fact. You cannot depend on translation alone as they only represent the translators view and not directly what the Quran says.
And the comment mquran says above i agree with. The understanding of words has been changed into ritual meanings and so on. The original meaning is covered by hadith and linguistic changes. And knowing classic arabic is not enough as their meanings are explained by the Quran itself.
Peace
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ZainabHmmm .. this is exactly what I had in mind about being 'stifled.' Learning Arabic as a second language and then seeking help from the dicitonary to understand the vocabulary of the Qur'aan can narrow one's perception regarding the social or historical context of the passage we are reading at the time. Thus, Arabic as a second language with the lughat constantly for assistance makes 'little knowledge a dangerous thing.' The same can also be said about the mind boggling translations I keep reading by many an unrecognized translators.
Social and historical context? Zainab, please don't forget that whatever the content of al-quraan, that's exactly what Allah intended. So we don't need to know what metaphors arabs used or how the pharoahs of egypt dressed. What we do need to know is what the verse actually means and how it applies in our lives. My humble advice is, please don't worry about that and stick to linguistic and applicational study.
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Peace be with you Zainab,
Because of the inevitable problems that come with reading Translations of the qur'aan, I highly recommend that you learn the Arabic language so you can read it the qur'aan in it's original text. It is much less complicated than many people would make it out to be.
Having said that, I do have a suggestion as to HOW to approach your Arabic studying for maximum benefit in the least amount of time and hassle. I need to ask you first what level you are at currently in Arabic? Do you know how to Read Arabic? Meaning, do you know how to read the Arabic script? If so, you are already well on your way. If not, no biggie because the arabic script and alphabet is quite easy and you can learn it in a week.
I'll be waiting to read your reply.
Salaam,
Damon.P.S. I would love to see this thread under a sticky because the relevance of this subject is very, very, very important yet highly underestimated.
Salaams and peace Damon ..
Many thanks for your deep concern. Yes I can read Arabic script. I'll manage the rest and if or when I'm in need for help I'll certainly ask for it. Thanks again. -
Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan.
I agree with this statement. The clear verses of Qur'an translated into something else by using the dictionary root defination without the knowledge of Arabic language and Arabic grammer.
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ZainabHmmm .. this is exactly what I had in mind about being 'stifled.' Learning Arabic as a second language and then seeking help from the dicitonary to understand the vocabulary of the Qur'aan can narrow one's perception regarding the social or historical context of the passage we are reading at the time. Thus, Arabic as a second language with the lughat constantly for assistance makes 'little knowledge a dangerous thing.' The same can also be said about the mind boggling translations I keep reading by many an unrecognized translators.
Social and historical context? Zainab, please don't forget that whatever the content of al-quraan, that's exactly what Allah intended. So we don't need to know what metaphors arabs used or how the pharoahs of egypt dressed. What we do need to know is what the verse actually means and how it applies in our lives. My humble advice is, please don't worry about that and stick to linguistic and applicational study.
I agree partly. It depends upon the verse being read. The Qur'aan has 114 chapters and over 6,000 verses. Needless to say, all aren't alike. Some (even if they're revealed pertaining to a particular situation) can be taken as commandments for all times. And some refer to specific situations of the time .. situations that don't prevail at present. Here's when the social, historical or political context needs to be considered, without which one's perception of that verse (or those verses) could go pretty awry. And as I can see, quite a bit of that is actually happening around here. I don't mean to say that linguistic and applicational approach isn't important. It sure is. But there's one more thing that's still more vital and it includes the linguistic & applicational aspects, that is, to have a rational overview of the entire concept of the Qur'aan. Peace ..
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Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan.
I agree with this statement. The clear verses of Qur'an translated into something else by using the dictionary root defination without the knowledge of Arabic language and Arabic grammer.
Similarly this is also true in the case of those studying the Qur'aan having Arabic as a second language when the dictionary can often be a hindrance than a help.
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Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan.
I agree with this statement. The clear verses of Qur'an translated into something else by using the dictionary root defination without the knowledge of Arabic language and Arabic grammer.
I've seen that approach used here by the christian Apple Pie, on his twisted crusade to 'prove' that the Qur'an says that Jesus is God. I remember asking him whether he considered Lane's Lexikon to be God's word, given that he picks meanings that support his thesis from Lane confused
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Salaamun alaikum brother mquran, all,
Classical Arabic helped only half of the way, the rest depended upon the Quran's internal structure.
That is exactly what I was saying
The correct approach would be to learn CLASSICAL Arabic language + use reputable CLASSICAL Arabic dictionaries (more than one) + study the qur'aanic context of the revelations + determine the meaning of a word in al-qur'aan according to what al-qur'aan defines as its meaning + study all occurrences of the same words or themes in al-qur'aan + compare at least 10 different translations + use our mind, reason, and knowledge + discuss with people of knowledge + follow the best meaning.
The part of my quote above in blue = al-qur'aan's internal structure.
Al-quraan's vocabulary was subverted by a religious subversion. Deen, taqwa, islam, salaat have all a quranically-explained meaning yet this meaning has been changed by likes the hadith and sunnah. Most translations are unacceptable to me as they use these hadithic meanings.
Agreed. That is the same as I mentioned in my post
Majority of the translators rely heavily on the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad for translation of al-qur'aan and also rely on the post qur'aanic modern Arabic meanings of the qur'aanic words and their personal desires and egos, thereby completely distorting the original message and causing utter chaos and confusion. That is why no single translator can be blindly/completely/fully trusted to determine the true meaning of Allah's words.
The red part in my quote above = so called "hadith and sunnah" and the blue part = modern Arabic dictionaries.
I disagree to 'dangerous' because the vocabulary of al-quraan doesn't include 'modern' words like telephone etc.
I agree that the vocabulary of al-quraan doesn't include 'modern' words like telephone etc. and that is not the reason I said that modern Arabic dictionaries are dangerous to understand al-qur'aan.
I said it was dangerous because of two reasons
Firstly, modern Arabic dictionaries have given alternative post-qur'aanic meanings to some qur'aanic words which are not the original true meanings of those words in the context of their qur'aanic usage, which can cause confusion and misunderstanding and mistranslation if those qur'aanic words are translated according to modern Arabic dictionaries.
Secondly, the correct approach to understanding al-qur'aan is not Arabic as second language + modern Arabic dictionary, but is learning CLASSICAL Arabic language + al-qur'aan's internal structure + using our minds, reason, knowledge as I stated in my previous post.
I agree when you questioned the usage of social or historical context to determine the meaning of any verse. Firstly, all the social/historical/political context necessary to understand any qur'aanic verse is already given in al-qur'aan itself. Secondly, the "social/historical/political context" based on the unverifiable and fabricated hearsays and rumors falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad (so called hadith and sunnah) is totally unreliable and therefore cannot and should not be used to determine the true meanings of Allah's words.
In my understanding NONE of the qur'aanic verses need any social/historical/political context for their proper understanding OTHER THAN the social/historical/political context already mentioned in al-qur'aan, which makes the unreliable/unverifiable/fabricated social/historical/political context based on the so called hadith and sunnah redundant anyway.
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Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan.
I agree with this statement. The clear verses of Qur'an translated into something else by using the dictionary root defination without the knowledge of Arabic language and Arabic grammer.
Similarly this is also true in the case of those studying the Qur'aan having Arabic as a second language when the dictionary can often be a hindrance than a help.
Sister Zainab unfortunately Arabic is not even my second language. I am ashamed to admit that can't read Arabic Qur'an. Its about four years that I have made some progress to read some words but not sure how to pronounce them correctly. I have to depend on various translations to understand the message.
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Arabic dictionary is indeed a dangerous combination to study al-qur'aan.
I agree with this statement. The clear verses of Qur'an translated into something else by using the dictionary root defination without the knowledge of Arabic language and Arabic grammer.
I've seen that approach used here by the christian Apple Pie, on his twisted crusade to 'prove' that the Qur'an says that Jesus is God. I remember asking him whether he considered Lane's Lexikon to be God's word, given that he picks meanings that support his thesis from Lane confused
This is exactly what I am talking about you understand it very correctly.
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to acquire intellectual recognition in the Islamic world ??
It is soooooo hard zainab to get that - It seems that only you can recognise my genius!
But I guess that is good enough DThe more I get to know our people, the more confused I get. I don't know what's happening to our Ummah. Makes one so despondent.
Perhaps you can join my "Ummah" zainab?
This Ummah is called "Humanity" - and there is plenty of room for you DRegards,
"Humanity" has different communities which evolves out of a natural and harmless phenomenon in humans. And one of these communities has been the Muslim Ummah since the 7th century. It might not exist any longer because of the shenanigans of its own people, but it once did exist, and it's always suppose to. There's no need to get paranoid at the sound of the word 'Ummah.' It's got nothing to do with dividing humanity, if that's what some are thinking. There's nothing wrong with forming one's own community, and neither does this mean being reclusive or not liking the others. I would never have such a negative approach!
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Salaams and peace dear Leyla ..
Many thanks for your informative posts. I found them very helpful. -
Zainab"Humanity" has different communities which evolves out of a natural and harmless phenomenon in humans. And one of these communities has been the Muslim Ummah since the 7th century. It might not exist any longer because of the shenanigans of its own people, but it once did exist, and it's always suppose to. There's no need to get paranoid at the sound of the word 'Ummah.' It's got nothing to do with dividing humanity, if that's what some are thinking. There's nothing wrong with forming one's own community, and neither does this mean being reclusive or not liking the others. I would never have such a negative approach!
That's right, a Muslim ummah is supposed to exist, it's meant to be central/main ummah (ummatan wasat - 2/143) although I would say people calling themselves 'muslim' today do not have such an ummah. Humankind is meant to be one ummah too (ummatan wahid - 2/213).
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That's right, a Muslim ummah is supposed to exist, it's meant to be central/main ummah (ummatan wasat - 2/143) although I would say people calling themselves 'muslim' today do not have such an ummah.
Yes, right ...
Humankind is meant to be one ummah too (ummatan wahid - 2/213).
Right on again .. however, as I had talked briefly on this topic earlier, differences are inherent of human temperament. There are lots of values that the universal human community ought to acquire, but they don't. Thus, from the practical view point, we need to see matters the way they are, rather than the way they should be. Allah SWT mentions in the Glorious Qur'aan that if He so wanted He could have made all mankind one community. But He wants to put us through tests & trials in this earthly world, so He has created us the way we are. Besides, as I already stated, creating a Muslim Ummah must not be taken as a gesture for dividing the world community. In fact, Muslims are not the only ones who are supposed to have an Ummah. Such community cultures exist in every society. What's important is to have the right goal of smooth interaction, understanding and harmony between these various sections of people in our planet.
Peace ..
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ZainabRight on again .. however, as I had talked briefly on this topic earlier, differences are inherent of human temperament. There are lots of values that the universal human community ought to acquire, but they don't. Thus, from the practical view point, we need to see matters the way they are, rather than the way they should be.
I'm afraid I have a problem with that because what you phrased as 'the way they are' (are - to be, existing) isn't real. It's based on a baathil system, a system that would crumble in the coming of al-haqq (21/18, al-haqq smashes the brains of al-baathil).
Having said that, al-quraan isn't a binary reality in the sense that it's either a 0 value (no quranic values) or 1 (100% quranic values). There are various stages along The Way.
Allah SWT mentions in the Glorious Qur'aan that if He so wanted He could have made all mankind one community. But He wants to put us through tests & trials in this earthly world, so He has created us the way we are.
I disagree. While 'insaaniyat' (where 'ins' is a word described in the Quraan in mostly negative terms) is an aspect of an-naas (humankind), there's also the 'bashariyat' (where 'bashar' is the aspect of the Adamic man, who knows of his position in the world). So both states, the fall and the awakening are possible. Presently however, the world is in the fall.
Besides, as I already stated, creating a Muslim Ummah must not be taken as a gesture for dividing the world community. In fact, Muslims are not the only ones who are supposed to have an Ummah. Such community cultures exist in every society. What's important is to have the right goal of smooth interaction, understanding and harmony between these various sections of people in our planet.
Not division but direction. I say a 'muslim ummah' should lead the world in actualising the human being and spreading God's light in the world.