Challenge to all rejectors of the Divinity of Al-Quraan : Moderated Debates
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cant you see that this whole thing is moot to begin with. IF the challengers, who reject the Qurans divinity has to prove or disprove this from the Quran itself, you haev a paradox.
Why is this paradoxical if the parts of al-quraan they use are alleged to be false?
Why should or would they use the scripture like that? My reasons to disbelieve it as the direct word of God, is mere observation of earlyer sysetems mixed with sound reasoning, their ideas, origins etc. Those are not to be found in the document known as Quran.
And that's fine. Your friends didn't allege so. They alleged al-quraan has contradictions and I'm challenging that.
This whole debate will fall back on "The Quran is true because the Quran says it is true", thus there is no way they can defend their stand, and for me. that is simply not good enough.
It's not good enough for me either (because that's not why al-quraan is divine anyway) but seeing your 'will fall back' statement has disclosed your research into the matter. Sad to see you stopped where you stopped.
God is obvious, i dont need shady textural excercises to understand this fact, or behave in a proper manner. And the fact that im currently meeting monotheists from all over the world, from various creeds, shows that im right. The message is eternal and not trapped in any single book. You can spend most of your life studying this scripture and not understand a damn thing, and there will be people who never opened a book at all, who have it all pretty well nailed down.
Fine. Good luck in your path.
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LT Highlights the bits that upsets you in that thread.
Nothing upsets me in that thread.
Then case closed! Go about your business.
And leave me out of it!Quranic text is in the public domain.
So is my challenge.
Then don't use my name.
It's not about approval. It's about righteous behaviour of which you have little of in this particular issue.
My righteous behaviour is with myself and My God alone.
I don't need your approval on my righteous behaviour.Regards,
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Peace all. Magis post highlights some very pertinent points about this whole 'debate'...
I will add another...What is meant by 'divinity'?... -
LTThen case closed! Go about your business.
And leave me out of it!Some things never change, eh LT? You see cut people's posts in half and try to fake your way through. Let me clarify
- What you write doesn't emote me personally
- However, I do intend to clarify things for present and future readers.
You didn't want to be left out of it. You wanted to air your views and now I'm issuing a challenge. Take it or not, it will be clear that people like yourself aren't exactly forthright in your convictions.
Then don't use my name.
Sure, what you can do is, declare that all the tripe you posted before was unsubstantiated and that you never did any research. Then it'd be a moot point to challenge you.
My righteous behaviour is with myself and My God alone.
I don't need your approval on my righteous behaviour.Are you unable read or something? My response was
Try to get the point, please. The points are as follows- You have opinions
- You're not hesitant to air your opinions (about the beliefs of others in a quranic forum, no less)
- Others challenge you to defend your points.
- You duck and dive and refuse to meet the points.
- Others challenge you to a moderated debate. You refuse but retain the right to disparage and criticise.
It's not about approval. It's about righteous behaviour of which you have little of in this particular issue.
If your righteous behaviour is between you and God, then my point regarding you 'book-free' spiritualists is made even before the debate. You guys simply create your ethos as you go along. It's ok to defecate on the views of others but not ok for them to challenge you. How 'just'...
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EnquirerPeace all. Magis post highlights some very pertinent points about this whole 'debate'...
I will add another...What is meant by 'divinity'?...No point raising questions if you won't stick around to see the answers being concieved and given birth to. It'd be as succesful as your 'democracy' thread then...
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Peace mquran and all...I will repeat...What is meant by divinity?...
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Peace to All
If you'd allow me to interject, the whole notion of a debate forum is to have your OWN beliefs picked apart and challenged. This is the only way we evolve. After they are thoroughly discussed, you either hold stronger to your conviction based on more solid thought formation, or you begin to explore a new perspective. Therefore, if anyone - LOTETREE or anyone else - believes the quran has contradictions, state your case! What do you have to lose? If you have thoroughly come to that conclusion then educate us all. There is nothing wrong with being wrong in the end either. There are a few times where I believed in something and someone on this forum challenged my core beliefs. I had to go back to the drawing board and reevaluate. In the end, I am a winner because I either grow from a new learning experience or I hold closer to my own faith. God commands us to tread lightly on this earth and not be so arrogant to believe you are taller than the mountains. Take others' opinions with a grain of salt but also your own and you will go far.
My definition of divinity of quran=God's Word period.
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Peace soul2squeeze. You make some very good points in your post about learning and evolving...I think what some people may be wary of is the 'partisanship',and the very strong subjectivity in these debates...(not to mention the accusations,and insults directed from the vantage point of a computer screen.)
My question was,'what is meant by divinity'?...In other words what do you mean by 'god',when you say the quran is 'gods' words?...
Peace all. ps;Some of my opinions are just that...my subjective opinions...I take subjective opinons,including my own,with a pinch of salt....And some so-called 'objective' opinions,i take with a whole sack-full of salt... -
Peace to you Enquirer, Peace all,
I think what some people may be wary of is the 'partisanship',and the very strong subjectivity in these debates...(not to mention the accusations,and insults directed from the vantage point of a computer screen.)
Acutally, that's absolutely true. How will this ever be fair? We need to have moderators that are unbiased in their opinion on the issue; or as unbiased as possible. Which we'll never find anyone on this forum who is neutral on the issue of the quran! Then we get into the problem of what the criteria is for answering a question. I can come with 30 points for answering a question and if someone is too biased they can call it all hogwash and be done with it. The more I think about it the less I like the idea of a moderated debate, you're absolutely right. If we can agree to leave our insults out of posts we probably could still have a constructive discussion though.
My question was,'what is meant by divinity'?...In other words what do you mean by 'god',when you say the quran is 'gods' words?...
What I mean by God? I would say the Unseen Creator... i'm not sure where this is going... Can you clarify your stance?
Peace all. ps;Some of my opinions are just that...my subjective opinions...I take subjective opinons,including my own,with a pinch of salt....And some so-called 'objective' opinions,i take with a whole sack-full of salt... Smiley
LOL words to live by D
Peace
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- What you write doesn't emote me personally
- However, I do intend to clarify things for present and future readers.
Go ahead and clarify "things" for the present and future readers.
But leave me out of it.You didn't want to be left out of it.
Oh yes I do! So beat it chap. Go and harass someone else.
Take it or not, it will be clear that people like yourself aren't exactly forthright in your convictions.
My convictions are with myself and God alone.
Sure, what you can do is, declare that all the tripe you posted before was unsubstantiated and that you never did any research. Then it'd be a moot point to challenge you.
I declare that all that I have written was good enough to upset you.
If your righteous behaviour is between you and God, then my point regarding you 'book-free' spiritualists is made even before the debate. You guys simply create your ethos as you go along. It's ok to defecate on the views of others but not ok for them to challenge you. How 'just'...
My justice is with me and my God Alone.
Perhaps you need to look in the mirror and think about "righteousness"....Regards,
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It's not good enough for me either (because that's not why al-quraan is divine anyway) but seeing your 'will fall back' statement has disclosed your research into the matter. Sad to see you stopped where you stopped.
What makes you assume that i have stopped with anything? I have just seen these debates ad naseum, and they always end up in. The Quran is right because the Quran says so.
Peace
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Peace soul2squeeze. Nice post...
I asked 'what one means by god',because on this forum alone,there are several differing views of god,his attributes,and his power...the debators could clarify their view of god beforehand...
If all truth is from god,then any truthful book is divine...
If the criteria for a book being divine,is the abscence of contradictions,then a phone-book or science journal can be divine...
If a book having scientific accuracies in it,or accurate predictions/scientific predictions in it,qualifies it as being divine,then the bible,some scientific american issues,and nostradamus' work are also divine...
This topic is a veritable pandoras box....And without being patronising...I think some people do not have the skills to debate un-emotionally on this topic...Not yet anyway....Those who want to discuss civily,without the need for moderators,will continue to discuss to seek better understandings,and not to defend their books or views at all costs...
Peace all. If the discussion doesnt lead to some benefit,understanding,or peace what is the point? (KGB;i welcome a civil disussion at your request. .) -
Enquirer
I decliined to discuss Qur'an with you when you invite for discussion because of the very bad experiences in the past where I was called the some stupid person, sunni terrorist. I can have discussion with you now just like a fierce tennis match with no personal grudges.
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Peace KGB. Thats fine...Just to clarify,i am not aware that i personally have called you any bad names....
Im happy that we can discuss like a 'fierce' tennis match,and shake hands afterwards....You want to play on grass or clay?... -
Peace Enquirer
You did never call me any names that is the truth but I avioded you because of past bad experiences.
I can play on all fields (Qur'an - understanding with the help of translations and logic; slow courts) clay court, politics (grass and fast courts). ;D
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Soul2squeezeLOTETREE or anyone else - believes the quran has contradictions, state your case! What do you have to lose? If you have thoroughly come to that conclusion then educate us all. There is nothing wrong with being wrong in the end either. There are a few times where I believed in something and someone on this forum challenged my core beliefs. I had to go back to the drawing board and reevaluate. In the end, I am a winner because I either grow from a new learning experience or I hold closer to my own faith. God commands us to tread lightly on this earth and not be so arrogant to believe you are taller than the mountains. Take others' opinions with a grain of salt but also your own and you will go far.
That's good you do this. However, don't expect this from Danish, Enquirer or Lote-Tree. They are here simply to show 'quraniyeen' that they are more evolved. They have 'evolved' beyond the book they disparage and that the book is outdated. It's a different story however, when they are challenged.
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Peace KGB. Ok,im very happy to see progress...You never know we could have a friendly wimbledon,with no rain... bravo yay