Every kind of similitude....
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First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Peace Tim,
This is the question that the populace probably asked that got them into trouble in the first place. Seeing other people with man-made religions and rituals the populace who had been freed by the reading couldn't handle the freedom and wanted to go back to a life of rituals. So over time, they invented, borrowed, interpreted, and synthesised a bunch of doctrines that were just as convoluted and wrong as any other before them.
If you are sincere about what you state - following the reading alone, then what else could be the answer to the question above?
The debates that take place around some concepts changes nothing in relation to the key things in the reading - that there is no god other than the God, that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and that you should do good works and live a righteous life.
That you should feed the impoverished, and look after those who can't fend for themselves. To be honest always and completely fair in your practises and trade. All things that would come under the umbrella of righteousness. You already know these things.
What more is there? What else do you want to follow?
Regards.
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First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Peace Tim,
This is the question that the populace probably asked that got them into trouble in the first place. Seeing other people with man-made religions and rituals the populace who had been freed by the reading couldn't handle the freedom and wanted to go back to a life of rituals. So over time, they invented, borrowed, interpreted, and synthesised a bunch of doctrines that were just as convoluted and wrong as any other before them.
If you are sincere about what you state - following the reading alone, then what else could be the answer to the question above?
The debates that take place around some concepts changes nothing in relation to the key things in the reading - that there is no god other than the God, that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and that you should do good works and live a righteous life.
That you should feed the impoverished, and look after those who can't fend for themselves. To be honest always and completely fair in your practises and trade. All things that would come under the umbrella of righteousness. You already know these things.
What more is there? What else do you want to follow?
Regards.
Peace Truth,
Ahhh at last!
I couldn?t agree with you more.
Please don?t begrudge me for playing devils advocate. People hire me to help pitch businesses to Venture Capitalists, so refining arguments in this way is habit.
Cheers,
Tim
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BuDaddy wrote
....Do you know what people here say when these non-definitive rhetorical arguments are made by Qur?an Alone Muslims?
First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Then, when no tangible answer is given then they say ?This is probably just a group of Jews getting together and coming up with a bunch of crap to divide Muslims?.
They're just too blind to realize that they are already divided.
They're too blind to realize that they are implementing the Torat of the Jews without even being aware of it.And they still accuse us of trying to divide them..
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Peace be upon you Bu Daddy,
Qur?an alone Muslims are very good at pointing out that the Qur?an is fully detailed
For the record, it is Al Kitaab that is fully detailed, meaning that the Universe contains all we need. It is not referring to the physical book that has taken on this name "Koran".
and when it needs to be very specific. This is touted primarily when taking on Traditional Muslims. You point out their use of unclear verses as a vehicle for creating a system you reject. The problem is that once that is done, instead of sticking to the specifics that give you an unassailable argument; God Alone Muslims turn around and start tackling the same verses that got the traditional Muslims in trouble.
Again, through going through the "confusion" instead of avoiding it, we come to find out that there are signs in the UNIVERSE that are clear and straightfoward and others that are not as clear. It is in no way saying that The God gave us a message that we can never understand. We have to make this point CLEAR, or else there will develop a defeated mindset. How can you understand something that you have already convinced yourself is no understandbale?
Just look at the topic of this thread. Do you not think this has been a topic of debate for nearly fourteen hundred years? How do you think we got ?To fallow the Messenger is to fallow God? = 6 books of hadith?
It wil always be the case except for those who truly do the work.
God tells us that there is content within the Qur?an that we will never understand and that trying to derive it?s meaning will only cause us problems.
Never does the God say that.
Just because a Muslim rejects hadith dose not mean they can derive a superior understanding of these unclear verses. And it is this trying to come to a superior understanding of this unclear content that is no different than any Muslim or scholar that has come before. ?God knows what you know not?.
The God says that those with knowledge (observable proof) will understand. Verse 37 is not about the physical written book.
This of course dose not mean that we ignore those verses that are not clear. Indeed, we must contemplate the whole Qur?an. We just have to stop using these verses to derive a system. The system within the Qur?an is simple and clear and easy to pitch, as long as you don?t cloud them with endless interpretations derived from unclear verse.
Derive a system? The system is already in place, its just a matter of understanding the system and submitting to the LAW.
All of God's message can be understood, the more we purify the nafs and work righteousness.
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Peace be upon you,
Ahhh at last!
I couldn?t agree with you more.
Please don?t begrudge me for playing devils advocate
Never D Cause I love playing God's Advocate D
But I just want to point out that as we all agree what correct behavior deals with, the question is HOW do we get this info into our SPIRIT(nafs)? This message deals with Behavior SHAPING (emphasis on shaping). HOW do we make the change?
A hint The response of those in hellfire will say they were not of those who "salaat".
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Peace Idolfree1,
You know I was pretty much finished with this thread, but then you popped up.
I?ve been a convert to Islam since 1989, and read the Qur?an daily. I haven?t read every hadith, but most translated into English. Dealing with the media regularly, I?ve reviewed Shariah and Fiqh so I know where their boundaries lay (at least in the context of where I live). I speak 3 languages fluently (English, Bahasah Malaysia, and Indonesian). I?m about the only American that does speak Malay and Indonesian, so I?m regularly tapped as a consultant for large firms from both sides (I?ve lived in Malaysia for ten years). I have written detailed business proposals for, and pitched new technology companies. Do you know how complex Third Generation Mobile is? Not just the tech but also the revenue generating models. I?ve developed marketing campaigns where large sums of money are at stake. ?My opinion is valued, so I know I?m not stupid?.
Still, when you start to go on, I start to scratch my head. ?What is he talking about??
You sound just like a traditional Muslim when they are trying to set up the argument that ?You cannot just read the Qur?an and understand Islam. You need learned people to teach it to you?. Go back up and look at what Truth wrote. Anyone can understand that. Don?t bother replying to this as I am done with this thread (plus I?m busy the rest of the week). Just think about what I have said, please.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace Be Upon you,
You know I was pretty much finished with this thread, but then you popped up.
Glad I caught you
I?ve been a convert to Islam since 1989, and read the Qur?an daily. I haven?t read every hadith, but most translated into English. Dealing with the media regularly, I?ve reviewed Shariah and Fiqh so I know where their boundaries lay (at least in the context of where I live). I speak 3 languages fluently (English, Bahasah Malaysia, and Indonesian). I?m about the only American that does speak Malay and Indonesian, so I?m regularly tapped as a consultant for large firms from both sides (I?ve lived in Malaysia for ten years). I have written detailed business proposals for, and pitched new technology companies. Do you know how complex Third Generation Mobile is? Not just the tech but also the revenue generating models. I?ve developed marketing campaigns where large sums of money are at stake. ?My opinion is valued, so I know I?m not stupid?.
The word "stupid" comes from STUPOR, meaning being asleep. Your intellectual ability, which sounds good according to your resume, does not equate to you being spiritually awake.
Still, when you start to go on, I start to scratch my head. ?What is he talking about??
Well, it certainly has nothing to do with Malaysian Shariah and Fiqh, so if you are trying to understand me from that, it wont work. But there is certainly no compulsion for you to try to understand me, I am merely giving you what I have. You are free to accept or reject.
You sound just like a traditional Muslim when they are trying to set up the argument that ?You cannot just read the Qur?an and understand Islam. You need learned people to teach it to you?.
Hmmmm, you mean to tell me that a person who holds the understanding that true knowledge comes from WITHIN, and that all people have the potential to be a "nabi" (intuiter) can also hold the viewpoint you just gave about me?
Go back up and look at what Truth wrote. Anyone can understand that. Don?t bother replying to this as I am done with this thread (plus I?m busy the rest of the week). Just think about what I have said, please.
I'm glad you did not scratch your head with what Truth wrote. Hopefully one day, when you are not so busywith the earthly life, you will have time to reflect upon what I have said and perhaps will understand.
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Peace Tim,
I know you're a busy man so perhaps this will fall on deaf ears. Nevertheless, there are some points you raised that should be addressed.
You stated
If you are going to take down the system that is traditional Islam (which is built on lies), you have to offer something more in return than a never-ending quest for the truth.
Why? I'm of the philosophy that one should never stop seeking the truth, one should never stop learning and reviewing and refining. What is wrong with that? And why does searching for truth have to be equated to a system?
First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
OK
they say ?This is probably just a group of Jews getting together and coming up with a bunch of crap to divide Muslims?. This may sound absurd...
Actually, it sounds like the typical paranoid response of a people who need to follow a set of rules and think that thinking for onesself is something sinister.
to them so does the notion of leaving the comfort of their (perceived or other wise) well established religion for a ?We're just looking for the truth?.
OK
"We're just looking for the truth", is not a system that can be fallowed.
I never said it was, Tim.
do you wish to say there is not a system in Islam?
Of course I do. wink
What about the strait path?
The straight path is not a system, it's a series of reference points and check downs. It is not a regimen of activities.
Don?t tell me the strait path is a vagary of perseption.
I won't.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you,
Lets do it bravo