Are the 'specific' quranic laws relevant for all time?
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Peace wakas. I hope we can start this discussion in peace,and end it in peace... group
I hope this debate clarifies some issues,and results in some benefit.....I dont feel we have to 'win',or that its a 'competition'....Im just trying to discuss a few relevant issues,to try to help in gaining a 'better' understanding for all concerned...... Round 1.....(Only joking. .)Question; Are the specific quranic laws relevant for all time?
An example would be the 'lashes' for proven adultery....Is it the general 'moral' crime (adultery.) which is to be avoided in every age? Or is the 'literal' 'specific' punishment' (100 lashes.) to be implemented,as well,in every age?
Peace all. -
Members that can post here are Wakas and the mod's selected for this debate. Please create another thread in this section if anyone wishes to discuss the topic. Thanks!
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peace enquirer,
Question; Are the specific quranic laws relevant for all time?
The guidance in 'al quran' ('the reading' is relevant for all time, thus I believe the laws it contains are also time-independent. However, they are only for those who wish to uphold them, i.e. a society/community built upon the reading's laws/guidance.
An example would be the 'lashes' for proven adultery....Is it the general 'moral' crime (adultery.) which is to be avoided in every age? Or is the 'literal' 'specific' punishment' (100 lashes.) to be implemented,as well,in every age?
It is both. Adultery should be avoided in every age, and the specific punishment can be implemented for a society/community built upon the reading's laws/guidance, as stated above, irrespective of time. Perhaps the only point I would make is that the reading's message is dynamic whilst its text is static, thus if evidence was brought forth to give a new understanding of the punishment for proven adultery, then that would have to be considered.
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Peace wakas. I understand from your post that quranic law will only be applied if the individual/society wishes/agrees to implement them? Am i correct in understanding that?
I agree that irresponsible sexual relations should be discouraged in this era too...
The 'punishment' for irresponsible relations,however,i feel would not be best served by 100 physical lashes,as i feel this is potentially inhumane and dangerous...
The requirements for 4 witnesses make little sense,because not many people indulging in irresponsible sex would likely get caught by 4 witnesses...Im sure there are many people around the world who indulge in adultery,yet are never caught or witnessed...
It seems like this law is only a deterrent for openly brazen public intercourse,which is very,very rare.(except in porn films.) If these laws are only to be applied to people who agree to these laws,then how does a quran-only society deal with irresponsible sex between non-quranic people?...If you say they are free to do as they wish,then this could possibly lead to no sexual guidelines for these people,spread of sexual diseases and unplanned pregnancies...This would seem to go against the 'quran/prophet' being universal and a mercy for all mankind...Does god not give guidelines about non-quranic peoples morals in this life,or give suggestions to enforce some kind of standards?
Finally i will say that the reading being 'dynamic' and potentially being re-interpreted is a good suggestion...However;
1)the problem of religious 'inertia' and dogmatic attitudes,means it will probably take years to change an 'unsuitable interpretation',thus creating lots of human suffering in the meantime...
2)people are never sure which is the right interpretation,or where they stand as regards their interpretations...Which is not good for a book that claims to be from god...
Peace all. -
I understand from your post that quranic law will only be applied if the individual/society wishes/agrees to implement them? Am i correct in understanding that?
yes, this is common sense. although, not necessarily all individuals have to agree that 'al quran' is divine or anything, they would have to agree to live by the rules set out
i feel would not be best served by 100 physical lashes,as i feel this is potentially inhumane and dangerous..
personal opinion.
The requirements for 4 witnesses make little sense,
personal opinion. to conclude it makes little sense would be to assume one has a perfect understanding of why the law is there, its workings and all its resultant rammifications when/if implemented. do you know these?
If these laws are only to be applied to people who agree to these laws,then how does a quran-only society deal with irresponsible sex between non-quranic people?
lets say a society/community was built upon the reading's laws, it doesn't mean every individual in that community has to believe in God or in 'al quran'. this is demonstrated in 'the reading' itself, see chapter 9 for example. Thus they would be held accountable like everyone else IF they agreed to live in the community/land. Chapter 9 is quite good on this. I wrote an article on "salat" which discusses this aspect, referencing chapter 9, if you are interested, see here
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htmDoes god not give guidelines about non-quranic peoples morals in this life,or give suggestions to enforce some kind of standards?
If you mean does 'al quran' have a watered down version of its rules for non-believers in 'al quran', then no, i am not aware of such a concept in it. If you meant something else, please clarify.
Finally i will say that the reading being 'dynamic' and potentially being re-interpreted is a good suggestion...
I do not even consider this a suggestion, as it is common sense. I'm sure you have read something and your understanding has improved or it has changed after reading it several times or after rsearch etc.
1)the problem of religious 'inertia' and dogmatic attitudes,means it will probably take years to change an 'unsuitable interpretation',thus creating lots of human suffering in the meantime...
"unsuitable interp." is personal opinion. And as for suffering, one is only held to account for what one does. Those who cause the suffering will not be able to escape justice on that day. There is no injustice.
As much as I hate to digress, it is semi-related, there is something in me (and in you it seems) that longs/craves for that justice. Its hard to explain feelings, but I know when I see injustice, there is just something raw that it touches in me, like I'm programmed to reject it. And just like my thirst proves water exists, perhaps my hardwired inner compass is telling me that justice exists too.And I'm sure you are aware that differing opinion/views/actions/conditions is an essential distinguishing mechanism. It often brings out the real you. I experience this in everyday life as I'm sure you do too.
2)people are never sure which is the right interpretation,or where they stand as regards their interpretations...Which is not good for a book that claims to be from god...
not "never".
if people are unsure where they stand regarding their interp. then simply either dont follow/implement it or follow what is your best understanding at the present time and work on improving it. I would like to point out that one does not need to implement/follow 'al quran'. to do so, is at a higher level, see the muslim V mumin article
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htmWe should take a lesson from nature, and be like the plant only with its roots firm, can it then grow strong and ascend towards the light.
Which is not good for a book that claims to be from god...
No, it would only be not good if God's book said "everyone who reads this will come to the same understanding" or similar.
Wakas
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Peace wakas.I agree with you about a 'thirst' for justice being the driving force to understand texts....
Your assertions about some of my comments being 'opinions' is not useful....every person on this forum who interprets the quran is doing it from their 'opinions'...unless they are speaking on behalf of god,or infallible...
Can you seriously tell me that you think implementing 100 lashes physically in cases of adultery (which still need four witnesses.) is going to reduce the adultery,irresponsible sex,sexual diseases,fatherless children,unplanned pregnancies,aids etc...
Bearing in mind that most of the adultery that occurs in the world probably has no witnesses,and never will have any witnesses....Also how common is it for couples to practice adultery in such a way as to be visible to four witnesses? (only in porn films,otherwise its very,very rare to get couples commiting adultery in a public sphere.)
If you say this interpretation is not correct,then what do we do in the meantime while scholars are trying to work out what verses apply to the situations regarding 'irresponsible sex'.....If this book is for universal justice,practical and from god,why is it soo hard for people to work out a 'common' meaning for much-needed simple implementation of common moral laws...?
Peace all. -
peace,
I agree with you about a 'thirst' for justice being the driving force to understand texts....
That was not my point at all. Please re-read my post.
Your assertions about some of my comments being 'opinions' is not useful
assertions? If someone makes a statement and presents no evidence, that is called a personal opinion. If you dont believe me, here is the 1st definition of "opinion" given by google
"a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty"
It matches your statements perfectly.
every person on this forum who interprets the quran is doing it from their 'opinions'...unless they are speaking on behalf of god,or infallible...
Wrong. You clearly do not understand the methodologies involved in understanding 'al quran' (logic, cross-reference, context, mapping to experience/reality etc). Personal opinion is worth little if someone presents an ayat/sign that goes against one's opinion, or makes a contradiction for one's opinion.
Can you seriously tell me that you think implementing 100 lashes physically in cases of adultery (which still need four witnesses.) is going to reduce the adultery,irresponsible sex,sexual diseases,fatherless children,unplanned pregnancies,aids etc...
Yes, I think it would. There are no case studies however, so neither of us can really say for sure.
Lets say it would be rare to get a conviction for proven adultery according to 'al quran', I would have thought your apparently liberal mindset would appreciate this structure. So, on the one hand you are saying this punishment is too severe and criticising it, and on the other are saying it would be extremely rare to get a conviction based on this method. Thus by your own admission, it would have to be an extreme act to get this kind of "extreme" punishment. Thus, according to you, the punishment fits the crime does it not?
If this book is for universal justice,practical and from god,why is it soo hard for people to work out a 'common' meaning for much-needed simple implementation of common moral laws...?
Much needed? Please tell me of any community/land in the entire world where its laws are built upon 'al quran'? That is the only situation where a "much-needed simple implementation" would be needed. There is no such land/community at present.
Please note, from now on I will assume that a lack of response to my questions means you cannot answer them or concede to my point, hence there is no need to answer them.
I would like to say it is apparent from the discussion so far that you do not understand certain aspects of 'al quran' (e.g. the concepts in chapter 9, or the progression in implementation recommended for muslim to mumin), and are thus taking wild stabs at 'al quran' with what you think are valid points when in reality they are ill-researched points. This is no bad thing, as I too, have many aspects of 'al quran' still to understand, and I guess since you opted for this discussion, you wish to improve your understanding too, or at least I hope this is the case.
Wakas
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Peace wakas.Im sorry,but your response is opinionated and personal...You have made assumptions about my post,and about me,and not even asked for clarifications of what i meant...I expected better from you....I will ask you to return to some reasonable,objective dicussion,or will conclude this discussion is finished...Im dissapointed,i thought this was heading for a decent discussion...The ball is in your court...And your views on quran are YOUR opinions on what allah is saying,not infallible....
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peace.
...your response is opinionated and personal...
...You have made assumptions...
I will ask you to return to some reasonable,objective dicussion
And your views on quran are YOUR opinions on what allah is saying,
Thank you for once again making statements without evidence to back up your claims. Thus, I am happy for you to end the discussion in the way you began it.
Wakas
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Peace wakas.
