Challenge to all rejectors of the Divinity of Al-Quraan : Moderated Debates
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Peace all. Jail obviously works in some situations....You cant commit crimes as easily if youre in jail..(im not referring to adultery,but crimes in general.)
In saudi and iran they have these types of whippings for certain offenses,and even stonings....Do you think these punishments work in these countries? Im sure many have witnessed these punishments in those countries...Are these countries models of justice...? -
Elenadon't start, mquran
This person needs a constant watch because he's not here for discussion. He's run out of arguments so now he goes with a CONDESCENDING 'do you seriously think..'
is THAT ok with you Elena? To question the believers of a certain belief like that without actually offering counter-arguments?
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Salaam
It's very refreshing to see forum participants actually questioning this 'modern day' concept. I don't know why contemporary human beings can get so arrogant about living in this era when while human beings have increased efficiency of work, they have also lost touch with authentic living. They look at 'old books' as anachronistic failing to see that wisdom is timeless.
Agree.
So we educate people not to carry out acts which are detremental to the society and yet some still do. What do we do these indivduals (a) Ignore them
(b) Reward them
(c) Sanction punishment against them.Please tick the appropriate response.
regards
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Phoenixwe've already seen enough of the REAL enquirer,
can you please address what he said in his post now?
we should stop worrying about people's tones and what they believe and focus on what's being said and move the discussion forward.That's more than a fair point, Phoenix. But tell me, how do you dress something as substance-free as 'do you seriously think' ? Look at his post again
Peace all. Does anybody seriously think whippings for adultery (only with 4 witnesses,though.) will practically lower the rate of adultery,broken marriages,aids,sexual diseases,fatherless children,etc...
Dont you think education about being responsible,contraception,and latex would achieve far,far better results...Do I think, do you think, does he think, does she think..that's all it's really about. No, I don't think, I'll answer. Then he'll go 'well, I think'.
This is about FACTS. Al-quraan commands this. IF you think the command is wrong, do the following
- Define right and wrong (here itself, Enquirer'll do a runner)
- Tell us your authentication of right and wrong
Phoenix, I've tried to get this guy to factually discuss stuff, but he's not here for that. He's here for 'does he think' ramblings. Here;s another example
Your assertions about some of my comments being 'opinions' is not useful....every person on this forum who interprets the quran is doing it from their 'opinions'...unless they are speaking on behalf of god,or infallible...
In other words, its not possible to talk about al-quraan's teachings at all, for the simple reason that once you do, it's wholly your opinion about it. However, he doesn't mind airing his own opinions about a matter
i feel would not be best served by 100 physical lashes,as i feel this is potentially inhumane and dangerous..
I hope Wakas asks him to define 'inhumane' and 'dangerous'. That'll be a laugh coming from a person whose only objectivity comes from himself.
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Salaam
As all now appear to accept that Zina is unacceptable therefore can one now conclude that this aspect of the debate can now be concluded that Quran's to this day is applicable as it ever has been.
As for those who feel the punishment is unjust. perhaps now they can concentrate on this issue.
Please just consider the point of 4 witnesses though and see if you can work out why the Quranic dictat is even more applicable today than it ever was.
regards -
All of you if just pay attention to some of the previous topics discussed previously on the forum are coming back with different names and approaches.
Here is one.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4333.msg60395#msghttp//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4333.msg60395#msg6039560395
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Peace still-learning. SOME parts of the quran are still applicable,i dont think anyone denies this...
please tell me how 4 witnesses can be of benefit in todays world...?
What if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free? -
Peace still-learning. SOME parts of the quran are still applicable,i dont think anyone denies this...
please tell me how 4 witnesses can be of benefit in todays world...?
What if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free?Enquirer, did you know that believers aren't allowed to spy on anyone? What is meant by a witness is a person who sees the act inadvertently. This punishment is about lewdness in public. Anyone in a quranic polity can be together behind closed doors and no authority has the right to breach those doors without their permission.
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salaam
Than you at least we have agreed on one issue.
as for the punishmentWhat if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free?
Of course what you three decide your moral outrage justifies then you can take appropriate action and the justice system will have to decide whether your actions were appropriate or not. The Quran cannot be any more open than this. Also do you think this Guys wife deserves to know and if he ends up losing his wife is that not a punishment or do you only consider 100 lashes. Personally i would prefer 100 lashes anyday to breaking up my family but then punishment is all very relative.
If you see a couple openly fornicating in public (and in present climate it is perfectly possible) do you think they deserve some sort of punishment?
regards
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Salaam
I think mquran's answer explains the issue much better.
regards
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Peace mquran. ok,i think you will agree that your interpretation is different from others on this forum?
This makes these verses about 'public indeceny' as such...So why 4 witnesses? Why not 3 or 2 or 1?
And what does quran say about our response to 'irresponsible' sexual relations according to your understanding?...... -
I'd also like to ask fellow Free-minders, why do we assume it's adultery because 'az-zaaniah wa az-zaani' (the 'adulteress' and 'adulteror', so called) are mentioned in sequential gender. In 5/38 'as-saariq wa as-saariqah' (the male thief and female thief) are mentioned in sequential genders, we don't automatically assume they're 'pulling a job' together ala Dick and Jane?
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In saudi and iran they have these types of whippings for certain offenses,and even stonings....Do you think these punishments work in these countries? Im sure many have witnessed these punishments in those countries...Are these countries models of justice...?
What these countries do has NOTHING to do with the Quran. So this is OFF-topic. They don't follow the Quran but laws that are man-made and come from the middle-ages. We are talking about the Quran. Don't say these countries are Muslim, you have been long enough on the forum to know these secterian countries go against logic and the Quran.
Peace still-learning. SOME parts of the quran are still applicable,i dont think anyone denies this...
please tell me how 4 witnesses can be of benefit in todays world...?
What if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free?Only the whipping part is an issue, for the rest all the laws in the Quran coincide directly with todays laws. So i want to know enquirer, which parts fall out of your 'SOME parts'? Only the whipping verse i agree is a bit tricky, but for the rest there are no laws in the Quran that doesn't coincide with western laws.
And i believe now more and more, the four witnesses has to do with open public fornication, not private adultery. As like you said above, if i only have 3 witnesses, what''s the point? So this has to do more with public fornication as porn maybe.
Peace
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Peace mquran. ok,i think you will agree that your interpretation is different from others on this forum?
I do but that sort of thing doesn't bother me much.
This makes these verses about 'public indeceny' as such...So why 4 witnesses? Why not 3 or 2 or 1?
I'm afraid I don't know.
And what does quran say about our response to 'irresponsible' sexual relations according to your understanding?......
That it is fahsha, the work of shaitaan .
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Salaam
What if i catch some-one red-handedly cheating on his wife,yet i only have three witnesses....Does he get off free?
Ok have ou got a number which is more appropriate than 4.
regards -
salaam
sorry I think my pasting has gone bit funny
my last post was in response to
thisThis makes these verses about 'public indeceny' as such...So why 4 witnesses? Why not 3 or 2 or 1?regards
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Peace mquran and arnoldyasin... I respect the fact that you two dont mind going against the grain in your interpretations... I still fail to see the full significance of 'whipping' being an effective punishment/detterent against public indecency...Especially 100 times...
Also the inheritance laws dont seem applicable today arnoldyasin...?
Ps; stillearning; i agree i have to make a moral judgemnet to the best of my ability/knowledge if i catch someone cheating on their partner...But are you saying if i have 4 witnesses', then i MUST report this guy to the authorities?.....What if this breaks up his marriage,and leaves his kids without a father,and leads to his physical and public humiliation?....Wheres the 'forgiveness' option,and cant his wife decide how to deal with the situation in the long run? (assuming the guy is repentant,and promises not to commit these deeds again.) -
Peace,
women and man are equal. But even still in todays society in the west, 90% of all businesses are started by men. So the inheritance laws still show some logic, as it is about investment... Also 90% of all families, the women take care of the children out of free choice, and that most income is based on the man. Also when a women is in a 'men's' position that she takes care of the bills, then i believe the inheritance should go to her, as she applicates the men's position. So you have to look at these laws of why men and why women? It is about the role they hold, so when the roles are switched, then also the laws switch.