The 3:7 Challenge to Arnold Yasin
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Hello Arnold
you said
37 telling us that NO ONE will be able to understand those verses or only the ones with knowledge?
No, the verse clearly states, only God knows AND the people with knowledge...
Look bro, I will give you a chance to prove the above wrong claim by you, clearly you cut the verse short to suit your wrong understanding that you are promoting and cosequently you will flaw some who will follow your wrong understanding, here is your chance to prove me wrong, we will only resort to 37 nothing more, no hadith, no self opinions, no Quran alone translations and no conjestures
Let?s look at 37 in details
?He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord? and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?
(7)
-> ? ?, ? He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book?, ?The Quran? is referred to as ?Al Kitab?, i.e. Al Kitab in verse 37 means 100% ?Al Quran?, i.e. Al Quran was sent down to Mohammad by Allah.
-> ? ?, ? In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book?, another clear sentence, Allah is saying to Mohammad and anyone who will read the Quran, in this book there are verses basics or fundamental of established meaning, 37 must be one of those as we will see while walking through it, some thought that 37 is a Mutashabihat verse, I even thought the same previously, but I quickly managed to understand that 37 can?t be Mutashabihat, because it is actually telling us the fact that there are Mutashabihat verses and why they were included in the Quran. Humans may expect that a book of guidance should be as clear as it can gets, which I agree, however let?s not forget that the Quran is also used to test everyone, i.e. it is a guidance (Muhkamat) and a test (Mutashabihat) at the same time, this is an awesome planning by the Al Mighty Allah, we read, in the Quran there will be Muhkamat verses, we didn?t read that All the Quran will be Muhkamat verses, those Muhkamat verses were also described as Umma Al Kitab, i.e. the foundation of the book, therefore the context suggest to the believers that the Muhkamat are the ones that they should care about, what about the rest of the Quran then?
-> ? ?, ? others are allegorical?, here is the rest of the Quran, the other portion of the Quran verses are Mutashabihat, i.e. allegorical, i.e. hard to understand, i.e. confusing because it can have more than one meaning, this is not coincidence, it is part of the plan as Allah has told us that He included those allegorical verses in the Quran, now it is about time to ask why He did that?, we don?t need to look any where, we only need to continue reading the verse
-> ? ?, ? But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its meanings,?, the mighty plan objective is revealed, these deliberately inserted allegorical verses are there to expose those in whose hearts is perversity (believers or not, it applies to both), because those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, There is a very important hint in here, for those seeking discord, in which community there are seeking that discord?, it has to be the believers community, therefore we have a double test in hand, a test for the unbelievers to see if they will seek discord by speculating the different meanings of those Mutashabihat verses, and another test for the believers to expose who will follow that discord, it can also be considered a test to the unbelievers who don?t search for the meanings of these verses neither seek discord between the believers, it will be a test for them exactly like the believers to see if they will follow that discord or not. This is awesome planning, it may sound not fair at the first glance, but if we consider the following, I guess it has to be fair
In this life, this is how a tester creates a test, he/she includes in the test a bit of tricky questions, he/she never tell us what sort of tricks it will be included though, and yet the process is fair and square to all, in the case of this life test, The Tester ?Allah? has told us in advance what the trick is ?37?, THIS IS FAIRNESS AT ITS MAX, WHAT IS STRICKING IS, MANY STILL LISTEN TO THAT DISCORD THEN FOLLOW IT AS WE SEE ON THIS WEB SITE AND ON MANY OTHER WEB SITES
-> ? ?, ? but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah?, here is the denial that NO ONE WILL KNOW THE MEANING EXCEPT ALLAH, some people who try to twist the meaning of this crystal clear verse by saying there is a ?Waw? after ?Allah? which means ?And?, i.e. what will follow the Waw should share the action with Allah, the action here is knowing the meaning of those Mutashabihat verses, this is 100% wrong as I will prove ?LOGICALLY SPEAKING? later, but we must take note that this bit also started with a Waw, this does not mean it is sharing what was before it, this is clear from the context before it, the Waw was translated ?But? however ?Waw? means ?And?, it is also common knowledge in the Arabic language to start a new sentence with a Waw, EXACTLY AS THIS SENTENCE AND THE ONE AFFTER IT AND THE ONE AFTER THE ONE AFTER IT as we will see next.
-> ? ?, ? And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, here is a new sentence started with a Waw, and clearly means that the ones with knowledge will believe in both Muhkamat and Mutashabihat verses as BOTH FROM OUR GOD, WHY THEY SAY THAT, IF THEY MANAGED TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANINGS OF THESE MUTSHABIHAT VERSES?, the Mutashabihat should be Muhkamat for them ?Arne? they have the knowledge to know it??, yet they referred to them as BOTH, see, this is the logical refute to those who claim the people with knowledge will also crack these Mutashabihat verses and know its true meanings, I guess they are mixed up in what ?Rasikhoon fi Alilm? means, they think the knowledge may be science, but quite the contrary the Ilm in the verse means ?knowing Allah?, nothing more as science doesn?t fit in the description of the people with knowledge, because we can see an illiterate human who knows Allah far better than Einstein, what is important also is this if the knowledgeable people share the action with Allah in knowing the meaning of the Mutashabihat verses then Allah must share the action of saying ? , i.e. ? ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, see, this alone should demolish that non sensible understanding that those with knowledge will understand the meaning of the Mutashabihat verse along with Allah, because Allah should not say ? We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord?
-> ? ?, ? and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?, this bit started again with a Waw, as an indication of a new sentence, and it can be understood as being part of what the people with knowledge said or just another message from Allah, this two meanings of this bit can?t make 37 Mutashabihat as in either cases ?Allah or Al Rasikhoon fi Alilm? who is saying it, the message is clear that ? and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?
Clear from the above that Allah deliberately inserted Mutashabihat verses to test all of us and He told us in advance about the trick and it is clear that the verse can?t be Mutashabihat because every bit in it is clearly understood and makes great sense within the whole Quran context, the trick outcome as told is simply, some will try to search for its meanings seeking discord, others will listen to that discord and the true believers in Allah will just take it as from Allah without searching into its Mutashabihat meanings and they just accept both Mutashabihat and Muhkamat verses as from Allah
Finally how we can know that a verse is Mutashabih?, simply if we find that it can give two contradictory meaning, or two meaning that totally different and can cause confusion, like marrying 4 women for example, that Mutashabih verse 43 was overwritten by another Muhkam verses in the same sura that told us men can?t be fair with more than one woman hence it ordered us to marry only one, and we can see how the Mutashabih 43 verse causes a lot of back fire on the Muslims who wanted to justify their actions of polygamy in many different ways they interpreted verse (43), the fact of the matter is we don?t need that verse to find out of we should marry 4 or not, because the moment we discover the possibly contradictory meaning in it we should stop chasing its meaning as 37 told, However Allah didn?t leave us confused with the Mutashabih verse 43 He told us later to marry only one and even why we should marry only one
Salam
PS if you can beat the above simple and very convincing logic then I will concede to you, if not then I ask you to stop promoting wrong understansings because it will all add to you sins
Cheers
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peace, there are other translations that go like this " ...but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge, they say..." one sentence.
what do you think?Good bro
let's see what both me and you think bit by bit, firstly you need to clairfy who is THEY in the bit "They Say"?
cheers
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He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are firm verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar to each other. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.
this is the "free-minds" translation
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Peace,
Phoenix, it is about this
"? ?, ? but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah?, here is the denial that NO ONE WILL KNOW THE MEANING EXCEPT ALLAH, some people who try to twist the meaning of this crystal clear verse by saying there is a ?Waw? after ?Allah? which means ?And?, i.e. what will follow the Waw should share the action with Allah, the action here is knowing the meaning of those Mutashabihat verses, this is 100% wrong as I will prove ?LOGICALLY SPEAKING? later, but we must take note that this bit also started with a Waw, this does not mean it is sharing what was before it, this is clear from the context before it, the Waw was translated ?But? however ?Waw? means ?And?, it is also common knowledge in the Arabic language to start a new sentence with a Waw, EXACTLY AS THIS SENTENCE AND THE ONE AFFTER IT AND THE ONE AFTER THE ONE AFTER IT as we will see next."
If we can understand this better if this is the right approach, then we know more.
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Not directly, as 'waw' is not directly an end to a sentence
"waw" is inherently a linking word, meaning and/ furthermore / in addition / along with, and in some cases "that is"
Also i want AB to answer these points
1.In order to believe in all the verses of the Quran, one does not need to be deeply rooted in knowledge. To be a "believer" is a sufficient condition to believe all the verses. However, one needs to have deep knowledge of the Quran in order to understand "mutashabih" (multiple meaning) verses accurately. Therefore, 37 mentions a narrow category (those who deeply rooted in knowledge) in relation with those multiple meaning verses.
2.If we follow the traditional translation of 37, then, we must have a clear definition of "mutashabih" verses in order to avoid trying to understand them. According to your translation, if one tries to understand a verse and that verse happens to be a mutashabih, then that person is in danger to become a hypocrite. Therefore, you must be able to identify ALL the mutashabih verses. Can you provide us with a list of mutashabih verses? Can you justify your criteria for your selection? How can your lack of understanding be criteria for others? Someone's lack of understanding of one verse cannot make a verse "taboo" for all other people. Otherwise, the lowest degree of understanding will be the common denominator in understanding of the Quran. The more verse you don't understand the more you will be safe, and the more verse you understand the more you will be a subject for accusation to be a hypocrite.
3.The intention of those who try to understand the multiple-meaning verses is important. With the disease in their hearts, they try to confuse others by focusing on multiple meaning verses. Since only sincere believers possess the quality to understand the Quran (1746; 1857; 5417), hypocrites will not be able to find the true meaning of multiple-meaning words. They either try to take them out of context or disregard other verses that bring explanation to them. For instance
". . . And we sent down to you this message, to proclaim (litubayyena) for the people everything that is sent down to them, perhaps they will reflect (1644).
The word "'lituBaYyeNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means 1) To reveal what is concealed. 2) To explain what is vague. The first meaning is the antonym of "hide", the second is the antonym of "make vague". God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers." (1635)
Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337; 2025). If the Quran is a profound Arabic book, if it is explained by God, and if it is simple to understand (515; 26195; 111; 5417; 551-2), then the prophet does not have an extra mission to explain it. Furthermore, the verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation. Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it."The Quran broadcasts a very clear message. However, the problem is with our receivers. If our receiver does not hear the broadcast or cannot understand it well, then something is wrong with our receiver and we have to check it. If the signal is weak, we need to recharge our batteries, or reset our antennas. If we do not receive a clear message, we need to tune into the station, to the station of Quran alone, in order to get rid of the noises and interference from other sources. We may ask some help from knowledgeable people or experts for this task. If the receiver does not work at all, then we have to make a sincere effort to fix the broken parts. However, if we believe that the problem is in the broadcast, then nobody can help us. The divine broadcast can be heard in detail only by those who sincerely tune in, i.e., those who take it seriously and act accordingly. The condition of our receiver and the antenna, the power of the battery, and the precision level of our tuning are very important in getting the divine message properly.
"None can grasp it except the sincere." (5679)
The Quran is simple to understand (5411). Whoever opens his/her mind and heart as a monotheist and takes the time to study it, will understand it. This understanding will be enough for salvation. Beyond this, to understand the multi-meaning verses or allegorical descriptions you do not need to be a messenger of God. If you have a good mind and have studied the Quran as a believer, that is, if you have a deep knowledge, then you will be able to understand the true meanings of multiple-meaning verses. The verse 37, which is about the multiple-meaning verses, points this fact in a multiple-meaning way ". . . No one knows their true meaning except God and those who possess knowledge. . " Obviously, those who are confused by contradictory teaching of clergymen (ulama) do not possess knowledge and unable to understand this verse.
5.There are some Sunni commentators who support our understanding. For instance, the classic commentary of al-Baydawi prefers this understanding. Please note that Yusuf Ali also acknowledges this fact in the footnote of 37 "One reading, rejected by the majority of Commentators, but accepted by Mujahid and others, would not make a break at the point marked Waqfa Lazim, but would run the two sentences together. In that case the construction would run 'No one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firm in knowledge. They say', etc." If you are not determining the truth by the number of votes (majority), then, I suggest you reflect on the reasons I have listed here.
So i believe it is not correct in its usage of AB. And that it is God AND the people with knowledge, as the points above, common sense and the understanding that God sended the book to guide us show, so verses humankind cannot in the end understand are useless to send with a book to guide. There can be no reasonable answer to this. There are unlimited things God knows we don't know, why send them together with a book that is meant to guide us, as God doesnt need to prove His knowledge.
The good point he makes that must be investigated is
? , i.e. ? ?We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, see, this alone should demolish that non sensible understanding that those with knowledge will understand the meaning of the Mutashabihat verse along with Allah, because Allah should not say ? We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord?
Peace
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peace
the "they" is the people with knowledge. according to the sentence, at least.
Peace bro
I was going to respond to your oyther comment but saw this one
according to you the verse says Allah and the people with knowledge "Yalaamo" the meaning of the Mutashabhat verses, but the verse also said straight after Allah and the the people with knowledge "They say we believe in Both"
now how Allah will say this with them?
the second question is, if we assume "against the logic" that only the the people with knowledge who are saying this, then please tell me why they consider them Mutashabihat and deffrentiate between it and the muhkamat by saying "we believe in BOTH", aren't the mutashabihat verse muhkamiat foir them?, i.e. the whole Quran is Muhkam for them?
Thanks
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peace
"both" is referring to the allegorical verses and the clear, direct verses. I don't think that just because someone would know the meaning of it, it would be clear. Because it could still have a different understanding, and possibly a better one.Does the word "ayah" mean "sign?"
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Is one of the meanings yeah. Signs, miracles, verses...
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Not directly, as 'waw' is not directly an end to a sentence
"waw" is inherently a linking word, meaning and/ furthermore / in addition / along with, and in some cases "that is"
Peace bro
I didn?t say the Waw is directly of indirectly an end to a sentence, I said the Waw is commonly known to be AT THE START OF A NEW SENTENCE, AND THIS IS KNOWN ION ALL LANGUAGES, EXACTLY AS I USED IT IN THIS VER SENTENCE I JUST WROTE
Also i want AB to answer these points
Sure as long as it is related to 37
1.In order to believe in all the verses of the Quran, one does not need to be deeply rooted in knowledge. To be a "believer" is a sufficient condition to beleive all the verses. However, one needs to have deep knowledge of the Quran in order to understand "mutashabih" (multiple meaning) verses accurately. Therefore, 37 mentions a narrow category (those who deeply rooted in knowledge) in relation with those multiple meaning verses.
Bro the knowledge mentioned is the knowledge of knowing Allah, not the knowledge of knowing science nor languages, I believe I stated that already
2.If we follow the traditional translation of 37,
I didn?t follow any traditio0ns, this is the clear context of 37 combined with knowing what Allah is
then, we must have a clear definition of "mutashabih" verses in order to avoid trying to understand them.
sure, when you meet a verse that is not clear or does not make any sense and you exhausted all logic to find that it is not mutashabih then it is mutashabih, I guess everyone have a brain, I wonder why they don?t use it sometimes
According to your translation, if one tries to understand a verse and that verse happens to be a mutashabih, then that person is in danger to become a hypocrite.
Not really trying to understand the meaning of the mutashabih rather confirming that it is a mutashabih verse when finding out that all possible understandings can?t be eliminated ?logically speaking?, like 43 for example which is a clear cut mutashabih verse
Therefore, you must be able to identify ALL the mutashabih verses.
As you collide with them while reading the Quran, yes why not if you can
Can you provide us with a list of mutashabih verses?
Not a list but we can start with 43 if you like and then as I read the Quran and find them I will give a call of FM, I?m sure the Mutashabihat verses are very rare in the Quran because I hardly read over ten if I can remember well
Can you justify your criteria for your selection? How can your lack of understanding be criteria for others?
Sorry. Could not understand the question, what do you mean by my lack of knowledge be criteria for others?, it can?t be for sure, the criteria I?m talking about is the criteria of knowing a verse is mutshabih or not, this criteria is simply explained twice earlier
Someone's lack of understanding of one verse cannot make a verse "taboo" for all other people. Otherwise, the lowest degree of understanding will be the common denominator in understanding of the Quran. The more verse you don't understand the more you will be safe, and the more verse you understand the more you will be a subject for accusation to be a hypocrite.
Yeh the above apply on the Muhkamat verses
3.The intention of those who try to understand the multiple-meaning verses is important. With the disease in their harts, they try to confuse others by focusing on multiple meaning verses. Since only sincere believers possess the quality to understand the Quran (1746; 1857; 5417), hypocrites will not be able to find the true meaning of multiple-meaning words. They either try to take them out of context or disregard other verses that bring explanation to them. For instance
". . . And we sent down to you this message, to proclaim (litubayyena) for the people everything that is sent down to them, perhaps they will reflect (1644).
again I got confused with you here bro, please donlt make it harder for me, my two questions are not answered yet, these are the two important points you need to clear out
How come the people with knowledge refer to the Mutashabihat verses distinguished from the Muhkamat while they managed to understand it as you claim?
How Allah will say with the people with knowledge that They believe in both as both from Allah?
The word "'lituBaYyeNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means 1) To reveal what is concealed. 2) To explain what is vague. The first meaning is the antonym of "hide", the second is the antonym of "make vague". God orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers." (1635)
So you agree that the messenger has another role which is Le Tobain to the believers what was sent down to them, good now I got you cornered, now you should believe in some of the hadith because the prophet in it explained to us what was sent down to us, now 37 didn?t say Allah and His prophets will crack the meaning of the Mutashabihat verses, it said Allah and the people with knowledge, so what the prophets mission has to do with 37 exactly?
Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337; 2025). If the Quran is a profound Arabic book, if it is explained by God, and if it is simple to understand (515; 26195; 111; 5417; 551-2), then the prophet does not have an extra mission to explain it. Furthermore, the verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation. Thus, the word "litubayyena" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it."
Not sure what that has to do with 37?, but anyway bro 37 was not talking about any messenger rather the people with knowledge, I agree that the messengers are from the people with knowledge but I just don?t understand your point of bringing the messengers struggle into the discussion of 37
The Quran broadcasts a very clear message. However, the problem is with our receivers. If our receiver does not hear the broadcast or cannot understand it well, then something is wrong with our receiver and we have to check it. If the signal is weak, we need to recharge our batteries, or reset our antennas. If we do not receive a clear message, we need to tune into the station, to the station of Quran alone, in order to get rid of the noises and interference from other sources. We may ask some help from knowledgeable people or experts for this task. If the receiver does not work at all, then we have to make a sincere effort to fix the broken parts. However, if we believe that the problem is in the broadcast, then nobody can help us. The divine broadcast can be heard in detail only by those who sincerely tune in, i.e., those who take it seriously and act accordingly. The condition of our receiver and the antenna, the power of the battery, and the precision level of our tuning are very important in getting the divine message properly.
"None can grasp it except the sincere." (5679)
good, now I ask your sincerity to blossom and answer the two questions I raised please
The Quran is simple to understand (5411).
Are you sure this is 5411?
(11)
Whoever opens his/her mind and heart as a monotheist and takes the time to study it, will understand it.
I agree however I?m not sure if they will understand fully though?
This understanding will be enough for salvation. Beyond this, to understand the multi-meaning verses or allegorical descriptions you do not need to be a messenger of God.
So why you brought the messengers of God into the picture then?
If you have a good mind and have studied the Quran as a believer, that is, if you have a deep knowledge, then you will be able to understand the true meanings of multiple-meaning verses.
Good, can you now explain to me wjhich meaning is for 43 and why?, thanks
The verse 37, which is about the multiple-meaning verses, points this fact in a multiple-meaning way ". . . No one knows their true meaning except God and those who possess knowledge. . " Obviously, those who are confused by contradictory teaching of clergymen (ulama) do not possess knowledge and unable to understand this verse.
Good, why Allah then say with them ?They say we believe in both as from Allah??, you have to conclusively tell us why Allah is excluded from ?They say? according to the Arabic context, thanks
5.There are some Sunni commentators who support our understanding.
I really care about what sect they belong to, howver bring those sunni on and let them answer my two simple questions
For instance, the classic commentary of al-Baydawi prefers this understanding. Please note that Yusuf Ali also acknowledges this fact in the footnote of 37 "One reading, rejected by the majority of Commentators, but accepted by Mujahid and others, would not make a break at the point marked Waqfa Lazim, but would run the two sentences together. In that case the construction would run 'No one knows its hidden meanings except God and those who are firm in knowledge. They say', etc." If you are not determining the truth by the number of votes (majority), then, I suggest you reflect on the reasons I have listed here.
Irrelevant, we need two answers to two simple questions before we take that understanding, who is They? And if they say Allah is excluded from ?They? then they have to conclusively prove it from the Arabic context
So i believe it is not correct in its usage of AB. And that it is God AND the people with knowledge, as the points above, common sense and the understanding that God sended the book to guide us, so verses humankind cannot in the end is useless to send with a book to guide. There can be no reasonable answer to this.
Fine if you insist, I only convey a message and it is now conveyed
The good point he makes that must be investigated is
, i.e. We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord??, see, this alone should demolish that non sensible understanding that those with knowledge will understand the meaning of the Mutashabihat verse along with Allah, because Allah should not say ? We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord?
Peace
Thank you and I would like a logical answer to this if you really kean to clear my ignorance
Salam
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So 37 is talking about the "signs" in the "al kitab."
Ahmed, are you sure that in 37 al kitab means al quran?
100%
Cheers
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peace Ahmed,
why?
Ok bro when I have time I will explain why as this is going to be long "i feel", I have to get going with the things that i have to do before I fly in 3 days, here is a sample of what i have to do
- clean my wife car and my car
- clean my fish tank
- finish and deliver a databse to a client (I'm working on this DB since 2001)
- Prepare about 250,000 new records a call center to have enough calls while I'm away,
- get all the things I need to take with me overseas
man this is just a sample and i have to get going but I got you flagged on Profiler 2006 and surely you will hear from me why Al Kitab in 37 must means Al Quran 100%
cheers
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Peace,
AB, not all of your answers are good, but there is no need for me to answer them, as somebody has given me the exact answer i was looking for. So i agree with AB conclusion. I first didn't accept this translation, because people couldn't answer some questions about the logic behind it, now i got those answers. I first have to ask i can post them on the forum, so we have to wait for that. But it was not only the arabic that convinced but me also the answer related to it.
Like i said, i'm no arabic expert, but i have studied a lot, not to be satisfied with simple answers. But AB, you're right, i will not intervene no more before i have good answers. But on this issue i accepted an article which gave good answers i thought. That is why i answered phoenix then.
Peace
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This is what Ayman gave as answer to me which answered all my questions
003.007
YUSUFALI He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses
basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation
of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord,
and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden
meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge
say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and
none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture
wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and
others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt
pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause)
dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save
Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say We believe therein;
the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses
are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are
allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they
follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and
seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in
knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do
mind except those having understanding.
KHALIFA He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward
verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as
multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their
hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and
to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof
except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in
this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess
intelligence will take heed.The "waw" can be used both to separate a new sentence and for addition
(similar to an English "and". We find examples of both types of usages
in the great reading. So only looking at the "waw" doesn't tell us
enough information to decide either way. So we need to look at other
info in the passage. When we look at the rest of the passage we see that
the verb coming after "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge" is
the verb "say" in the plural ("yaquloon". Now notice how all
translators above, except for Khalifa, correctly don't put the pronoun
"hum" (they) before "yaquloon" and they just replicate the exact Arabic
sentence as "those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say". Only
Khalifa is forced to put the pronoun "they" before "say", which is
non-existent in the Arabic original, to make the passage work. This is
for the simple reason that Khalifa knew very well that not putting the
"they" in front of "say" and adding "those well founded in knowledge" to
GOD would result in "GOD and those well founded in knowledge say".
Since, clearly the sentence "We believe in this - all of it comes from
our Lord" cannot be uttered by The God, then he needed to change the
words and insert a pronoun that is not in the original Arabic. The other
translators didn't have to do that because they ended the sentence
before the "waw". So in this case, the evidence from the passage itself
leans heavily towards the "waw" being used as a sentence separator as
opposed to for addition.More evidence is in the word "taawil" itself. I don't think that any of
the translators really did a good job in translating this key word. The
word comes from "awal" which means "original/first/ultimate". So it is
not just any meaning/understanding/interpretation but it is the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Now this
type of meaning can only be known to the author of the text that is
subject to interpretation. This is true even for human authors. For
example, you can understand and interpret what an author means in a
novel but maybe you don't know that he or she based this passage on a
childhood experience or a certain likes and dislikes, etc. Essentially,
you would heve to delve into the psyche of the human author to know the
original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. Of course,
this is impossible.Other passages of the great reading confirm this understanding. You see
the same word in 753. It is addressing those who are waiting or expect
the original/first/ultimate meaning/understanding/interpretation. The
passage says that when the actual original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation comes, it will be on the day of the
account and by then it will be too late.Look around you and empirically verify the right path by comparing it to
the path of the stayers (16-7). You will see that the people who think
that they have the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation have stopped trying to get closer
to the truth. They are misguided and not progressing. If you or I
thought that we had the original/first/ultimate
meaning/understanding/interpretation, then we wouldn't be here today. It
is only those who are firmly grounded in reality that know that what we
know is far less than what we don't know. This is true about all of The
God's signs in the universe and not just in the great reading.I think that 37 and 7431 are linked together by 226. Here is my
translation of those passages-
He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging
signs that are the origin of the book, and others that are allegorical.
So in the case of
(1) Those in whose hearts there is blurriness, they pursue what is
allegorical from it (the book) desiring the "fitna"/trial/affliction and
desiring its (what is allegorical from the book) original
interpretation. And none knows its (what is allegorical from the book)
original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it
(the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remembers other than those with intellects. -
The God does not shy away from citing any kind of allegory, from a
mosquito to what is greater. As for those who have faith, they know that
it is the truth from their Lord. As for those who are unappreciative,
they say, "What did The God mean by such an allegory misleading many
thereby and guiding many thereby?" But He never misleads thereby except
the wicked. -
And we didn't make the owners/companions of the Fire except
controllers; and
We didn't make their count except as a "fitna"/trial/affliction for
those who have been unappreciative;
so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, those who had faith increase
in faith and those who were given the book and those who had faith do
not have doubt.
And, so that
(2) those in whose hearts there is sickness and the unappreciative say
"What did The God want with this example?" Like this The God misguides
whom He wills and guides whom He wills.
And none knows your Lord's soldiers except Him.
And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.
I hope that you can see those connections.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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