a surah like it

unknownuser

Magi the poem you have posted does not have a specific mathematical pattern of words in it, it contained no scientific facts that can only be discovered hundred's of years from now and contains no accurate history and the wisdom that was in your poem is copied from certain verses from al-quran, but just compiled into a poem.

You broke far too many rules trying to produce "a surah like it", I suggest you try again P

We already have a poetry thread http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5835.0
In fact someone suggested a whole poetry section yay

peace,
sugar

unknownuser

its the emerald tablet of TOTH. This outdates the Quran by atleast (and this is a very conservative estimate) 4000 years.

As for matematical blahblah...nonsense!. Or in the words of James Randi, whom i wrote to about the socalled number miracles of relegious books including the bible, naturally.

I quote.'

This is a simple number-trick. Let them get crazy over it....

James Randi.

understand that the ancient hebrews loved numerology, and had special values to all words. This is not even by a long stretch something unique, or unique to the Quran.

peace

unknownuser

Peace sugar and all. I would just like to state that wisdom existed before the quran...(Even the quran states that there were books of wisdom from god before the quran...)
And there will also be wisdom after the quran too...
As for numerical miracles,scientific correctness and accurate history....Well the bible is also claimed by many to have these as well....And nostradamus and da-vinci also made a few 'predictions' that are shown to have become historically and scientifically true...(the helicopter,twin towers,hitler etc,etc...)

unknownuser

lol i see that poem was not an attempt to produce "a surah like it" but you decided to claim that it was.

I think i have read something similar in one of Harun Yahyas articles.

By no means did I say that the mathematical pattern of words is unique in the Quran. So please don't put words in my mouth magi . I've never found "code 19" particularly impressive but I do believe it is in there. Next time you try to produce "a surah like it" please take that into consideration love.

You sound as though you are unaware of the fact that God sent scriptures before al-quran. This could possibly be a part of one of them.

So Maggi I would like to see your attempt to produce "a surah like it" but please make sure you are well aware of the rules before you start. HAVE FUN!! P

peace,
sugar

unknownuser

lol i see that poem was not an attempt to produce "a surah like it" but you decided to claim that it was.

It has been established that this kind of argumentation doesnt fly around here.

See here for data
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5836.0

I think i have read something similar in one of Harun Yahyas articles.

By no means did I say that the mathematical pattern of words is unique in the Quran. So please don't put words in my mouth magi .

Ok fair enough, i will not put words in your mouth, if youd ont ad homeniem associate me with doubtable characters.

I appologise.

I've never found "code 19" particularly impressive but I do believe it is in there. Next time you try to produce "a surah like it" please take that into consideration love.

No, beacuse that is not what the challenge says. This would be your emotional evaluation and interpretation of the text.

You sound as though you are unaware of the fact that God sent scriptures before al-quran. This could possibly be a part of one of them.

If God is Toth the magician, then sure. Im aware. in fact, i belive God still sends messages.

So Maggi I would like to see your attempt to produce "a surah like it" but please make sure you are well aware of the rules before you start. HAVE FUN!! P

peace,
sugar

What rules? The rules are to produce a surah like the ones in Quran, this was done before the Quran. You start out by saying i copied from the Quran. Could it be the other way around? If you look up the story of these tablets, even as avaible on the internet, you will se a strong connection to them and arabia around 400-1000 ac. I find that interresting.

peace

unknownuser

firstly i had no idea where you got that from since you did not say so in your first post.

Again i think you are also unaware that god's scriptures got distorted over the years.

If God is Toth the magician, then sure. Im aware. in fact, i belive God still sends messages.

I find it hard to believe that was authored by a magician called "Toth".

I do not believe that god sent another scripture after the quran, however I do believe that he does send messengers

To each nation will be sent rusul .

This would be your emotional evaluation and interpretation of the text.

when studying al-quran I try to leave my "emotions" out of it incase I intentionally try to derive a certain meaning from an interpretation of a verse to suit me > > > >

Magi there is no way on god's green earth you will be able to produce a surah like it no matter how hard you try.

If you look up the story of these tablets, even as avaible on the internet, you will se a strong connection to them and arabia around 400-1000 ac. I find that interresting.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at, please elaborate.

peace,
sugar

unknownuser

firstly i had no idea where you got that from since you did not say so in your first post.

Again i think you are also unaware that god's scriptures got distorted over the years.

Claims one of them. Interresting. However there was a point to me not telling streight out where the surah was from, and you fell for it as the first one. See, you instantly said " ...copied from the Quran", and when you realise it is older, then it is properbly something from one of the distorted scriptures we hear about in another scripture (the Quran).
This logic is skewed albeit, very popular, and i hope that you, yourself is able to see this.

I do not believe that god sent another scripture after the quran, however I do believe that he does send messengers

what does messengers do?

when studying al-quran I try to leave my "emotions" out of it incase I intentionally try to derive a certain meaning from an interpretation of a verse to suit me >D >D >D >D

yet, you tell me about mathematic and other goodies not obvious to all readers of the book. THis is valueloading a text. YOu are value loading, the Quran with something, not all can see. So your statement above is, how you would like to be, rather than how you are.

Magi there is no way on god's green earth you will be able to produce a surah like it no matter how hard you try.

Entry claim

claim Audio pronunciation of "claim" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klm)
tr.v. claimed, claim?ing, claims

To demand, ask for, or take as one's own or one's due claim a reward; claim one's luggage at the airport carousel.
To take in a violent manner as if by right a hurricane that claimed two lives.
To state to be true, especially when open to question; assert or maintain claimed he had won the race; a candidate claiming many supporters.
To deserve or call for; require problems that claim her attention.

n.

A demand for something as rightful or due.
A basis for demanding something; a title or right.
Something claimed in a formal or legal manner, especially a tract of public land staked out by a miner or homesteader.
A demand for payment in accordance with an insurance policy or other formal arrangement.
The sum of money demanded.
A statement of something as a fact; an assertion of truth makes no claim to be a cure.

I am eagerly awaiting you evidence, because i just

entry produce

pro?duce Audio pronunciation of "produce" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-ds, -dys, pr-)
v. pro?duced, pro?duc?ing, pro?duc?es
v. tr.

To bring forth; yield a plant that produces pink flowers.
To create by physical or mental effort produce a tapestry; produce a poem.
To manufacture factories that produce cars and trucks.
To cause to occur or exist; give rise to chemicals that produce a noxious vapor when mixed.
To bring forth; exhibit reached into a pocket and produced a packet of matches; failed to produce an eyewitness to the crime.
To supervise and finance the making and public presentation of produce a stage play; produce a videotape.
Mathematics. To extend (an area or volume) or lengthen (a line).

v. intr.

To make or yield products or a product an apple tree that produces well.
To manufacture or create economic goods and services.

n. (prds, prds)

Something produced; a product.
Farm products, especially fresh fruits and vegetables, considered as a group.

produced, a surah like it.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at, please elaborate.

peace,
sugar

Im asking you to look these tablets up, in context to arabia at the time of the Quran.

peace

unknownuser

Claims one of them. Interresting. However there was a point to me not telling streight out where the surah was from, and you fell for it as the first one. See, you instantly said " ...copied from the Quran", and when you realise it is older, then it is properbly something from one of the distorted scriptures we hear about in another scripture (the Quran).
This logic is skewed albeit, very popular, and i hope that you, yourself is able to see this.

well if you gave the full facts at the beginning then I blatantly would not have said that )

Claiming some old tablet is an attempt to produce a surah like it is something that confuses me about you, why have you chosen to do that?

what does messengers do?

Joe the moderator PMed me an article about that. It should be available on the site somewhere.

you tell me about mathematic and other goodies not obvious to all readers of the book. THis is valueloading a text. YOu are value loading, the Quran with something, not all can see. So your statement above is, how you would like to be, rather than how you are.

What do you mean by "rather than how you are"?

verse 5921

Khalifa
If we revealed this Quran to a mountain, you would see it trembling, crumbling, out of reverence for GOD. We cite these examples for the people, that they may reflect.

Yusuf Ali
Had We sent down this Qur'an on a mountain, verily, thou wouldst have seen it humble itself and cleave asunder for fear of God. Such are the similitudes which We propound to men, that they may reflect.

Pickthal
If We had caused this Qur'an to descend upon a mountain, thou (O Muhammad) verily hadst seen it humbled, rent asunder by the fear of Allah. Such similitudes coin We for mankind that haply they may reflect.

Shakir
Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, you would certainly have seen it falling down, splitting asunder because of the fear of Allah, and We set forth these parables to men that they may reflect.

Sher Ali
If WE had sent down this Qur'an on a mountain, thou wouldst, certainly, have seen it humbled and rent asunder for fear of Allah . And these are similitudes that WE set forth for mankind that they may reflect.

"Progressive Muslims"
If we revealed this Quran to a mountain, you would see it trembling, crumbling, out of reverence for God. We cite these examples for the people, that they may reflect.

Im asking you to look these tablets up, in context to arabia at the time of the Quran.

Post the URL of the relevant sites on this subject.

peace,
sugar

unknownuser

well if you gave the full facts at the beginning then I blatantly would not have said that

Claiming some old tablet is an attempt to produce a surah like it is something that confuses me about you, why have you chosen to do that?

I produced a surah like it, by definition of the word "produce"

What do you mean by "rather than how you are"?

I withdraw my statement. This will only lead to personal attacks.

What is the point to wich you posted those verses?

Post the URL of the relevant sites on this subject.

www.google.com Im not giving you a single page to skim and then refute. There is a mountain of information avaible. Go and take a look at it, and make up your own mind, by cross refferencing pages, and information. You diecide what sources you find trustworthy but wikipedia has some info on it for starters.

peace,

unknownuser

What is the point to wich you posted those verses?

To say that you can never produce a surah like it )
If you actually took time and studied al-quran I don't think you would have made such a blasphemous comment about it being possible to imitate. (But code 19 is no biggy and can be imitated IMO). Grasping the wisdom in Al-quran transforms the way you think about life and you know it is impossible for anyone to produce anything like it.

Im not giving you a single page to skim and then refute.

what makes you think i will refute it?

I have read one short article about it a while back. It does sound like an interesting bit of history but I don't see how it will change my views on al-quran. confused

If you think it will change my view on al-quran then please give me the relevant URL's to the sites on this subject, i am currently busy researching other subjects and don't have time to read every article on the net about this subject.

I'm under the impression you somehow think al-quran is not the word of god, if you don't think it is just say so.

peace,
sugar

agentxxx

peace magi,

brother you posted a thread about "early quranic manuscripts" , kindly post the link as i can't find it )

thank you,
peace.

unknownuser

Peace sugar. The bible can also transform a person by its wisdom,the same way as the quran can....Same for buddhism,hinduism,secularism etc,etc...The book/system is only as good as the reader...
Also science-research,and human experiences/love can also transform a humans outlook on life...I take human love and compassion over any surah or book,every time... group
Human love/compassion produces BETTER surahs than the quran... sun

unknownuser

To say that you can never produce a surah like it )

So in order for me to make a surah like it, it has to be a surah that makes mountains tremble?

If you actually took time and studied al-quran I don't think you would have made such a blasphemous comment about it being possible to imitate.

Ad hominem argumentation will bring us nowhere.

(But code 19 is no biggy and can be imitated IMO).

So as divine miracle, codes doesnt really prove anything. Am I understanding you correctly?

Grasping the wisdom in Al-quran transforms the way you think about life and you know it is impossible for anyone to produce anything like it.

I agree very much with the first part of this statement. However im unsure how to interpretate the next part. Are you saying that all the well behaving, peacefull people who call themself hindus, christians, jews, agnostics, gnostics etc. Scripts are inferior allthough they produce the very thing in people that you set as a criteria now?

what makes you think i will refute it?

I have read one short article about it a while back. It does sound like an interesting bit of history but I don't see how it will change my views on al-quran. confused

I am assuming, this is ofcourse wrong. I based it on the debate climate that has ruled this place for some time.

Im not saying by any length that it would change your view on the Quran. I said i found it interresting after looking into it myself, and it was more of a sidenote, to the "surah like it" itself.

I'm under the impression you somehow think al-quran is not the word of god, if you don't think it is just say so.

peace,
sugar

No not at all. It is as much "from God" as any scripture that has it in, the power to produce honest, caring, reflecting human beings. that is my stand. I enjoy reading the Quran, as much as i enjoy reading the obvious truths to be found in the tablets. Why? beacuse its true. there is no way around it.

My own stand is that any scripture can end up being its own set of blinders, for whatever it intend to show you.

Peace

unknownuser

peace magi,

brother you posted a thread about "early quranic manuscripts" , kindly post the link as i can't find it )

thank you,
peace.

I did? ???
I think i would like to read that aswell ;D

peace

unknownuser

Human love/compassion produces BETTER surahs than the quran... sun

lol the surahs of the quran promote that.

So in order for me to make a surah like it, it has to be a surah that makes mountains tremble?

lol not literally. If i put a copy of al-quran on top of a mountain will it tremble?

(But code 19 is no biggy and can be imitated IMO).

So as divine miracle, codes doesnt really prove anything. Am I understanding you correctly?

Code 19 is a bonus but it is by no means the only reason to prove quran is divine.

Are you saying that all the well behaving, peacefull people who call themself hindus, christians, jews, agnostics, gnostics etc. Scripts are inferior allthough they produce the very thing in people that you set as a criteria now?

by no means do i claim their scriptures are futile. All the wisdom in their scriptures is mentioned in al-quran but al-quran contains much, much more....

I am assuming, this is ofcourse wrong. I based it on the debate climate that has ruled this place for some time.

Im not saying by any length that it would change your view on the Quran. I said i found it interresting after looking into it myself, and it was more of a sidenote, to the "surah like it" itself.

I'm not sure what you mean.

No not at all. It is as much "from God" as any scripture that has it in, the power to produce honest, caring, reflecting human beings. that is my stand. I enjoy reading the Quran, as much as i enjoy reading the obvious truths to be found in the tablets. Why? beacuse its true. there is no way around it.

I once did a thread a while back and i said...

Is it true that the Quran is the best scripture God sent to mankind or are we not suppose to differentiate the scriptures cause I heard someone say that we should not differentiate the scriptures like we should not differentiate the messengers.
???

Peace,
Sugar

and i got an excellent answer from kyle....

Peace be upon you Sugar,

We are told to trust what is descended upon us and that which was descended to those before us. Its not about book vs book, its about truthful statements vs false statements. We do not differentiate between truth given by one or the other. All is considered Al Kitaab.

My own stand is that any scripture can end up being its own set of blinders, for whatever it intend to show you.

please elaborate.

Is this thread really about attempting to produce a surah like it? confused

....or is it scripture vs scripture?

peace,
sugar

unknownuser

Code 19 is a bonus but it is by no means the only reason to prove quran is divine.

Given that it apparently require you to remove stuff. How is it a bonus?

by no means do i claim their scriptures are futile. All the wisdom in their scriptures is mentioned in al-quran but al-quran contains much, much more....

Like what? what can i learn from Quran, that i cannot learn from any other source alike?

I'm not sure what you mean.

fair enough, it stand as my own observation then.

it is indeed an excellent answer from kyle. What is the relevance to "the surah like it" posted?

You have argued so far that

1.I cannot make a surah like it
2.Without making mountains tremble
2.That people do behave in the same way without a surah like it

Am i observing correctly? Would you be kind enough to let me know.

1.what are the rules for a surah like it as accepted by the broad mass of muslims?
2.who will be the judge?

please elaborate.

I am afarid it would spawn a rather personal debate, that has nothing to do with this thread. Feel free to open another thread and ask the same question.

peace

phoenix1

peace

can someone show me the "surah like it" verse?

I believe guidance can be found everywhere, not just in one book. God and his guidance is not limited to the quran.
The stories in the quran can be found in a lot of other sources before it, for example the bible.
Truth is from God. If we understand something, and find that it is true, then it is from God. In this way, we can be sure that most of the quran is from God. The rest I am not sure about.

and we need a better understanding of the word "surah"

phoenix1

Like what? what can i learn from Quran, that i cannot learn from any other source alike?

Good question. If someone can give me an example of that, I will worship them.
Well, not really. But I will be a convert.

unknownuser

Code 19 is a bonus but it is by no means the only reason to prove quran is divine.

Given that it apparently require you to remove stuff. How is it a bonus?

remove what?

it has been calculated again and those verses Dr. Rashad Khalifa removed are not actually false.

Like what? what can i learn from Quran, that i cannot learn from any other source alike?

maybe i should write a book about that )

Other scriptures have been vastly distorted unlike the quran.

And they are contradicting the Quran to some extent. Here is a link that very briefly shows how the Bible contradicts al-quran.
http//www.submission.org/god-bible.html

it is indeed an excellent answer from kyle. What is the relevance to "the surah like it" posted?

judging from the manuscript you posted i was under the impression you wanted to start a debate about scripture vs scripture.

I really have no idea what you are getting at confused

Why are you so desperate to argue that anyone can produce a "surah like it" if you don't trust god when he says that no one can produce a surah like it confused

you said that you believe that the quran is from god but now I am under the impression you think god is an idiot? am i right?

peace,
sugar

unknownuser

Peace sugar. Lots of the surahs in the quran can be used to 'hate' as well...Especially surah 9...,385 etc,etc...