why is shirk an unforgivable offence decreed by the creator?
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Peace all. So,having a mistaken theoretical understanding of an 'abstract' concept of god, (or so-called 'shirk'.) is a worse sin than say cold-blooded murder...?
What kind of god is this,that punishes people he has created,and supposedly can guide, for their mistaken understandings of him? (is that forgiving and just?)
Does it matter how a person 'rationalises' god in their own minds,as long as that person is a PRACTICALLY peaceful,humane,moral individual?
I think people need to seperate fact from fiction,and 'god' from the quran...Or is god the quran? -
Those people that commit shirk out of ignorance are not to blame IMO and i find it hard to believe that god will punish them if it was out of ignorance, god does talk a lot about repenting and reforming in al-quran.
Al-quran cites many examples of people that intentionally lie about god and say about god what they don't know. Those people deserve god's wrath.
peace,
sugar -
Salaams Guys,
Simply doing salaat and zakaat changes a person from a mushrik to a believer!
Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumufaoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohumwaohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadinfa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalatawaatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum innaAllaha ghafoorun raheemun
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Is this right? Or what?As salaat is where advice of people is discussed for the betterment of all (I think) -Everybody is encouraged to take a part.
So believers are those who work for the betterment of all, and Mushriks are those who don?t work for the betterment of all but just themselves and sometimes at the cost of others (see sura 9)
And those who say Jesus is the son of God are mushriks to a degree only though in that they will work for the betterment of others who believe likewise/like them only.
Check the usage of the the word mushriks throughout the quran ? if anyone has the time,better still simply check the ayah?s in surra 9 , that may be sufficient.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace simple. That is a relatively reasonable understanding....However that makes democrats muslims and sectarians mushriks...
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Salaams enquirer,
you said
"democrats and muslims" you mean the trad muslims don't you.
How are the dems mushriks?
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Salaam,
My opinion on this would be that ALL shirk/idol worship is blatanty man-made and so if we choose to worship something we really, deep-down know is man-made then we are commiting a gross sin. It's pretty obvious that whatever created the Universe is not contained within the pottery skills of those who make idols to worship, and it's pretty obvious that Jesus and Muhammad were messengers and not partners to whom we are to pay part worship. However, the majority of religious people follow what the majority in their religion do and so win each other's approval. This feeling keeps them happy but for those of us who truly believe and do out best to seek God, know that modern popular interpretations of religion are now divided by the twists men have put on God's truth.
Peace,
Stitch
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Peace simple. Democrats are supposed to value and respect the opinion of all members of the community,and to better all the community (theoretically anyway.)....Im just going by the logic of your classification....
I dont believe in this mushrik/kafir/believer categorisation/division of mankind...We all have traits of shirk,kufr and belief in us....every one of us...
The division is at times arbitrary and unrealistic.....You have to take people as they are...I dont understand the need for such black and white,neat,conclusive theoretical divisions of people..I will just give people the benefit of the doubt before classifying them....Maybe people who dont work for all the communities benefit,are un-educated,or have their reasons for not doing so....it doesnt mean i condemn them to eternal punishment....Because unfortunately when you classify someone as a muslim or kafir,its very easy to demonise,oppress,or victimise him,or say he is doomed eternally if he doesnt change to your life-style.....
And some who are classified as mushriks seem to be better in behaviour than muslims... -
Peace simple. Democrats are supposed to value and respect the opinion of all members of the community,and to better all the community (theoretically anyway.)....Im just going by the logic of your classification....
I dont believe in this mushrik/kafir/believer categorisation/division of mankind...We all have traits of shirk,kufr and belief in us....every one of us...
The division is at times arbitrary and unrealistic.....You have to take people as they are...I dont understand the need for such black and white,neat,conclusive theoretical divisions of people..I will just give people the benefit of the doubt before classifying them....Maybe people who dont work for all the communities benefit,are un-educated,or have their reasons for not doing so....it doesnt mean i condemn them to eternal punishment....Because unfortunately when you classify someone as a muslim or kafir,its very easy to demonise,oppress,or victimise him,or say he is doomed eternally if he doesnt change to your life-style.....
And some who are classified as mushriks seem to be better in behaviour than muslims...Lets see when People go on a spree killing looting (see sura 9) you have to classify those and sort them out as well , don't tell me that you are so forgiving you willforgive people like what they did in africa and in bosnia.
So until they change for the better you cannot forgive them ever.
you are confusing your self by using arabic words like muslim - stick to english Br.
Bad, good ugly ...........so forth.
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Peace simple. How does me classifying someone as a kafir/mushrik help me to stop them when they go on a 'killing spree'....? I see you are another person who thinks they can see if a person is confused or not through a computer screen...? Who are you to tell me what to stick to or not? Are you an arab linguist? And did no 'killing sprees' occur in the middle east or numerous places in the name of 'quranic' ideology...
You talk about betterment for all society....make sure you dont fall into the mistake,you mentioned earlier,of only wanting to benefit your own 'quranicly defined' sect.
peace all. -
Peace simple. How does me classifying someone as a kafir/mushrik help me to stop them when they go on a 'killing spree'....? I see you are another person who thinks they can see if a person is confused or not through a computer screen...? Who are you to tell me what to stick to or not? Are you an arab linguist? And did no 'killing sprees' occur in the middle east or numerous places in the name of 'quranic' ideology...
You talk about betterment for all society....make sure you dont fall into the mistake,you mentioned earlier,of only wanting to benefit your own 'quranicly defined' sect.
peace all.Ha ha i got you hot!
sorry wasn't done in any bad way ..just funning you are a great person.
Lets see calling people , the killers as murderers is classifying them isn't it.
Is that a good enough reason Br.
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Peace siki,
You had two different threads about the same subject in two different categories which have now been merged.
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Peace simple. I appreciate certain relative classifications,yes,but not absolute,unrealistic ones...
There are accidental manslaughters too,are these murders too?... Also shouldnt we have VERY,VERY realistic good evidence before we classify someone as a murderer? If a person commits a murder when he was 19,and then repents and turns his life around,is he still a murderer? There are ways of dealing with murderers,criminals,etc...But too go around calling them 'murderers,criminals etc...Is not always the most productive approach...better to imprison,educate and try to rehabilitate them....Yes/no?
peace... group Ps;dont think im soft on crime...I have three boisterous sisters... elektro -
Salaamun alaikum Siki and everyone,
Reading your post, your notion of shirik seems to be like putting statuettes on the altar, sorry if im wrong.
Shirik, in the Quranic sense is in matters of hukm or legislation (whether legal or metaphysical) like in 18/26 which tells us 'laa YUSHRIKU fi hukmihi ahada' (he does not ASSOCIATE anyone in his hukm).
4/48 tells us
God ghafrs not that partners should be set up with Him; but He ghafrs anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with God is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed
What is to 'ghafr' which you translate as 'forgive' ? I am against 'forgive' because 'afaa' in Quranic vocab already points to that (like in 9/43). In Quranic language, 'ghafr' is used to denote antonymity to 'azab' or punish, suffering. Therefore, ghafr is the protection of this.
So the correct rendering of 4/48 is that Allah will no longer protect from harm or suffering anyone who associates his legislation. This includes committing crimes such as murder, mischief etc.
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Peace,
In my opinoin the issue of Shirk is unforgivable becuase we are dealing with the subject of
original sin(i.e. the idea that we are all here on Earth to redeem ourselves back in Gods favor, or risk the true punishment of Hell which was delays as part of Gods mercy).This is why in some vesres you will note a reference to a
previous exisitenceAnd your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselvesAm I not your Lord?They saidYes, we bear witness.Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.(7172) -
Peace,
In my opinoin the issue of Shirk is unforgivable becuase we are dealing with the subject of
original sin(i.e. the idea that we are all here on Earth to redeem ourselves back in Gods favor, or risk the true punishment of Hell which was delays as part of Gods mercy).This is why in some vesres you will note a reference to a
previous exisitenceAnd your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselvesAm I not your Lord?They saidYes, we bear witness.Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.(7172)salam all .
is it necessarily from a previous existence ? -
Peace,
is it necessarily from a previous existence ?
When reading the context of the vesre, I would say
yesit is.- And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves
Am I not your Lord?They saidYes, we bear witness.Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this. - Nor can you Say
It was our fathers who set up partners before and we were simply a progeny who came after them. Would You destroy us for what the innovators did?
The above happened clearly before we were born here on Earth, hence, a previous existence at least of the soul can be verified.
- And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves
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Dear all
Why does the creator insist upon shirk as the only unforgivable offence, if maintained till death? surely he is God almighty, the most powerful , far above the typical human egoistic attitudes. But this sounds like any man in power trying to prove his authority. If he plans judging the individual's performances fairly, he should not mind somebody thinking otherwise while he or she does correct things in this world, Buddies this assertion of God has puzzled me since long and I have not been able to make sense of it, but as he has stressed upon it so much, there has to be some thing very technical about it, which has nothing to do with this life, think about the phrase TILL DEATH.
Could somebody provide me the correct piece of jigsaw puzzle?
SikandarPeace mate
the answer is very simple, Allah only created us NOT TO BE MISHRIKOON, He would have been able easy to achive that but instead He gave us the freewill and put us in the driving seat instead of being compulsed to worship Him as many other creatures are (no freewill)
therefore whoever violate the main objective of creating us must be doomed, it makes great sense to me, I will show you later where Allah told us that He created us for that reaosn only, not to enjoy this testing life indeed
Salam
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Peace simple. I appreciate certain relative classifications,yes,but not absolute,unrealistic ones...
There are accidental manslaughters too,are these murders too?... Also shouldnt we have VERY,VERY realistic good evidence before we classify someone as a murderer? If a person commits a murder when he was 19,and then repents and turns his life around,is he still a murderer? There are ways of dealing with murderers,criminals,etc...But too go around calling them 'murderers,criminals etc...Is not always the most productive approach...better to imprison,educate and try to rehabilitate them....Yes/no?
peace... group Ps;dont think im soft on crime...I have three boisterous sisters... elektroBr according to my understanding of the quran and 95, if the people change they are forgiven and no longer classed as criminals/murders.There isn't a permanant label - its only while such actions last or the people don't change or arn't willing to change.
But saying that you don't wipe off their records of the past they will remain for ever but as a records.And they will suffer in the hereafter if they havn't repented as they should have.
God Blessings.
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Peace
118- And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
119- Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
(11
(119)
Salam
