what scientific evidence from the Quran was not known to the peers of its time?
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Islamic apologetics are replete with the claims of "scientific miracles" in the Qur'an. As part of their support for this claim, Muslims routinely offer as evidence a group of Western Scientists who they claim support that contention.
An example of such a scientist is Dr. William W. Hay, Professor Emeritus of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder and Associate Curator, University of Colorado Museum. Here is a sample of how his position is regularly portrayed on Islamic websites, and in Islamic literature.
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We present to you Dr. William W. Hay, Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, U.S.A. he was formerly Dean of the Rosentiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, U.S.A. We went with him on a marine expedition, to show us some of the phenomena connected to our study of the scientific miracles in the Qur'aan and Sunnah. We asked him many questions about the marine surface, the divider between the upper and the lower sea, and about ocean floor and marine geology. We also asked Professor Hay about the mixed-water partitions between the different seas and fresh water rivers. He was kind enough to answer all of our questions in great detail.With regard to the partitions between the different seas, he explained that these bodies of water are not one homogeneous sea as it appears to us. Rather they are different seas, distinguished by varying degrees of salinity, temperature and density. In this slide, here the white lines represent partitions between two different seas (not shown - WWW Ed.) Each partition divides two seas that differ in temperature, salinity, density, marine biology and oxygen dissolubility. Scientists first had this picture in 1942 after hundreds of marine research stations were set up. In it we can see the divider between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean.
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This is an excellent example of Islamic modern scientific research. Modern techniques can thus be used to prove the inimitability of the Qur'aan. We discussed this verse and several other verses at great length with Professor Hay, and then we asked him the following question "What is your opinion of this phenomenon, namely, that you have in your possession now texts which have been revealed 1400 years ago, and which described in minute detail secrets of the universe which no man at that time could ever have known, simply because the techniques and the equipment were not available?"
Professor Hay replied "I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scripture of the Holy Qur'aan, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."
He was asked ?Then you have flatly denied it to be just from a human source. Whom do you think is the original source of such information??
Professor Hay "Well, I would think it must be the Divine Being!"
Truly this is divine knowledge which Allah sent in order to support the Message of the Prophet Muhammad (sallAllahu ?alaihi wa sallam) who said
Each Prophet has been given something to make his people believe in him. But I have been given a Revelation from Allah, and I hope that I will have the greatest number of followers on the Day of Judgement.
This Revelation contains its own miracle and stands as a proof for humanity until the Last Hour.
Source http//www.somalilife.com/it-is-truth/SeasAndOceans.html
This same text is repeated essentially verbatim in at least a dozen web pages and in distributed Islamic literature.
So the question is, does this account fairly represent Dr. Hay?s genuine opinion regarding ?miraculous scientific information? in the Qur?an?
On January 24, 2006 I sent Dr. Hay the following e-mail
THHuxley wrote
24 January 2006Dr. Hay,
Forgive the imposition on your time. I am an individual (living very near Estes Park, beautiful place) who has always had a very keen interest in the relationship between science and religion. In several Internet fora, I go by the nom-de-plume of THHuxley, having adopted the ID because I found myself consistently defending biologic evolution in response to on-line creationists.
I have noted of late that you are among the scientists who have been quoted by Islamic websites as taking the position that the Qur'an contains miraculous scientific information that cannot have been known to a 7th century Arab.
An example of such a site provides the following discussion regarding the Qur'ans description of seas that have "an impenetrable barrier" between them
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Professor Hay replied "I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scripture of the Holy Qur'aan, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."He was asked ?Then you have flatly denied it to be just from a human source. Whom do you think is the original source of such information??
Professor Hay "Well, I would think it must be the Divine Being!"
.................I am curious as to whether or not this fairly represents your position regarding the Qur'an and its divine authorship? Would you be willing to elaborate your thoughts regarding this issue?
I understand that your time is valuable, and as a Professor Emeritus you are probably engaged in far more enjoyable pursuits that responding to such an e-mail. However, should you find this note worthy of a brief reply, it would be deeply appreciated.
Regards,
(signed with real name)
PS. Should you discuss this note with anyone else, please consider keeping my real name from anyone who might be aware of THHuxley on-line. Thanks again.
In less than one full day, I received the following response
Dr. William W. Hay wrote
25 January 2006Hello T.H.,
It?s a long story about how they got that clip/quote from me, and I would be happy to tell you more about it if you give me a phone call at (XXX)XXX-XXXX.
In brief, in 1983 or 1984 two Saudi's approached the Geological Society of America to locate experts on certain aspects of Geology which might Relate to the Koran. At that time our understanding was that the Saudis wanted to make it possible for science to flourish in the Arab countries as it once had, but the religious authorities stood in the way. The Royal Family sponsored a "holy man", Sheik Zindani for this project. Accordingly, I was flown to Jedda, and met with the Sheik for the better part of a week.
For me one of the questions concerned a passage in the Koran that seems to refer to internal waves in the ocean, ad the idea was that these had been discovered only recently.
I suggested that perhaps Mohammed was highly intelligent, and a good observer, and had been on a sea voyage. In case you are not aware of it, proper Islamics believe that Mohammed was uneducated, illiterate, and to attribute a high level of intelligence to him is heresy. Also, the Sheik and colleagues insisted that he never saw the sea (in spite of the fact that Mecca and Medina) are almost in sight of the Red Sea.
I suggested that perhaps he had friends who were observant sailors, again heresy. So after one long afternoon on a boat in the hot sun, all of the caveats having been rejected you come to divine inspiration! So none of my skepticism was reflected.
I gave a geological lecture at the university in Jedda, and talking with faculty there I got the impression that the assumption that the goal was to make the pursuit of science safe was essentially correct.
When I got back to the US I started to look into how old information about internal waves was, and discovered that the Vikings certainly knew about the phenomenon, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Greeks/Romans knew about it, and almost certainly the Arabs, who were the best sailors, would have had some experience with this phenomenon (in practical terms where there is a sharp interface within the water, the waves on this interface control the motion of the boat so that it does not correspond to the surface waves or currents).
We then had a conference organized by Sheik Zindani in Islamabad bringing together most all of the non-Islamic scientists he had conferred with.
We were asked to prepare papers to be published in the Conference Proceedings, and mine included what I had been able to learn about possible ancient knowledge of internal waves in the ocean. Needless to say it did not get included in the published proceedings.
We now know that all of this had another aspect. At the meeting in Pakistan it became apparent that the topic of science that should have no interference from clerics was related to the development of nuclear weapons. It has also turned out that Sheik Zindani is a major supporter of Osama bin Laden.
The parallels of Islamic fundamentalism and modern US Christian fundamentalism are amazing. My European colleagues often refer to us as Iran-west.
I did a long interview with an investigative reporter for the Wall Street Journal on Sheik Zindani and his cohorts in 2000, but unfortunately I do not have a copy of the published article anymore.
Incidentally, most of me early paleontologic career was devoted to study of coccoliths, the tiny fossils that were the topic of T. H. Huxley's famous lecture "On a Piece of Chalk."
We have so far managed to hold off "intelligent design" from the public schools here, but our local fundamentalists are very persistent.
Yours sincerely,
Bill Hay
So, what have we learned?
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The Islamic accounts do not accurately reflect Dr. Hay?s opinion.
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The Islamic accounts leave out information provided by Dr. Hay that disprove their thesis.
It is reasonable to suspect that Dr. Hay?s experience is not unique, and in fact according to the Wall Street Journal Article he references above, it is not. That article can be found here
http//forum.bismikaallahuma.org/viewtopic.php?t=7251&highlight=
this is a post by a member of bismikaallahuma.org forum, THHuxley.
http//forum.bismikaallahuma.org/viewtopic.php?t=7444&highlight=
this is another interesting debate. -
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668 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.
Waitha raayta allatheena yakhoodoona fee ayatina faaAArid AAanhum hatta yakhoodoo fee hadeethin ghayrihi waimma yunsiyannaka alshshaytanu fala taqAAud baAAda alththikra maAAa alqawmi alththalimeena
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668 When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.
Waitha raayta allatheena yakhoodoona fee ayatina faaAArid AAanhum hatta yakhoodoo fee hadeethin ghayrihi waimma yunsiyannaka alshshaytanu fala taqAAud baAAda alththikra maAAa alqawmi alththalimeena
How do you feel that this verse is relevant for the subject at hand?
Peace
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Peace all. If this verse is taken as a 'prohibition' against dicussion,then how can muslims talk to christians who believe in a trinity?....Surely some christians would say we believe only in the bible and not the quran....Should we stop talking with them because we think they are mocking/rejecting the quran?.....A large portion of the quran is directly talking to the so-called 'unbelievers',and the prophet also talked to people who did not believe in the quran....Whats the problem with discussing/talking?
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Peace All,
In my early days of internet research, I too was bamboozled by these supposedly highly accredited opinions. One name that always popped up was Professor Keith Moore. I don't recall the field (possibly embryology) or the university this professor was supposedly linked to, but, in the end, it turned out the guy was not on their alumni list and could not be found, nor could any of his research or publishings.
It seems the Saudis spent a lot of time, money, and effort to advertise these legitimate-sounding credentials all over the internet to offer some scientific validity to the Qur'an. The result, I would say, has backfired, since these claims cannot be verified, making it look like a hoax.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace tay. So basically a lot of propoganda,and people reading into a book what they want....
I think the belief in the quran is subjective....(although thats not necessarily a bad thing in itself.)
Is there any wisdom in the quran that is not present in other books/elsewhere?
Is there any objective proof of the qurans validity? -
Peace all. I also noted some muslims claimed the 'hadith' were scientifically accurate as well...Especially the ones about embryology,honey,dates, etc...
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peace Tay,
i agree.
I think that what people think are scientific facts aren't really scientific facts at all. Those verses are meant for teaching us a lesson. The quran is not a science text book, it's meant for guidance.
We learn nothing from random (and unclearly stated, incomplete) scientific information. Especially if that information isn't going to be information until a few centuries from now. Doesn't make sense to me.
A good example is mountains. Kyle suggested in a thread that mountains symbolize government because they stabilize.
If we take verse to mean literal mountains acting as pillars, then it doesn't make sense because mountains don't really stabalize anything, nor do they support anything. -
Peace all. In fact some christians also claim the bible contains scientific accuracies as well...Go figure...Im sure other religious groups also make claims about their own books/systems....The crunch would be if they let their claims be critically evaluated... o
I would understand these religions more if they just stated their books were an 'attempt' to codify reality/truth in that particular time/era,and contained some wisdom,and some inaccuracies because of their human origin... bravo yay -
peace all,
INTEGRATION OF THE PRE-ISLAMIC SCIENCES
As Islam spread northward into Syria, Egypt, and the Persian empire, IT CAME FACE TO FACE WITH THE SCIENCES OF ANTIQUITY whose heritage had been preserved in centers which now became a part of the Islamic world. ALEXANDRIA HAD BEEN A MAJOR CENTER OF SCIENCES AND LEARNING FOR CENTURIES. The Greek leaming cultivated in Alexandria was opposed by the Byzantines who had burned its library long before the advent of Islam. The tradition of Alexandrian learning did not die, however. It was transferred to Antioch and from there farther east to such cities as Edessa by eastern Christians who stood in sharp opposition to Byzantium and wished to have their own independent centers of learning. Moreover, the Persian king, Shapur I, had established Jundishapur in Persia as a second great center of learning matching Antioch. He even invited Indian physicians and mathematicians to teach in this major seat of learning, in addition to the Christian scholars who taught in Syriac as well as the Persians whose medium of instruction was Pahlavi.
Once Muslims established the new Islamic order during the Umayyad period, THEY TURNED THEIR ATTENTION TO THESE CENTERS OF LEARNING which had been preserved and sought to acquaint themselves with the knowledge taught and cultivated in them. THEY THEREFORE SET ABOUT WITH A CONCERTED EFFORT TO TRANSLATE THE PHILOSOPHICAL AND SCIENTIFIC WORKS which were available to them from not only GREEK AND SYRIAC (which was the language of eastern Christian scholars) but also from Pahlavi, the scholarly language of pre-Islamic Persia, and EVEN FROM SANSKRIT. Many of the accomplished translators were Christian Arabs such as Hunayn ibn Ishaq, who was also an outstanding physician, and others Persians such as Ibn Muqaffa', WHO PLAYED A MAJOR ROLE IN THE CREATION OF THE NEW ARABIC PROSE STYLE CONDUCIVE TO THE EXPRESSION OF PHILOSOPHICAL AND SCIENTIFIC WRITINGS. The great movement of translation lasted from THE BEGINNING OF THE 8TH TO THE END OF THE 9TH CENTURY, reaching its peak with the establishment of the House of Wisdom (Bayt alhikmah) by the caliph al-Ma'mun at the beginning of the 9th century.
The result of this extensive effort of the Islamic community TO CONFRONT THE CHALLENGE OF THE PRESENCE OF THE VARIOUS PHILOSOPHIES AND SCIENCES OF ANTIQUITY AND TO UNDERSTAND AND DIGEST THEM IN ITS OWN TERMS AND ACCORDING TO ITS OWN WORLD VIEW WAS THE TRANSLATION OF A VAST CORPUS OF WRITINGS INTO ARABIC. MOST OF THE IMPORTANT PHILOSOPHICAL AND SCIENTIFIC WORKS OF ARISTOTLE AND HIS SCHOOL, MUCH OF PLATO AND THE PYTHAGOREAN SCHOOL, AND THE MAJOR WORKS OF GREEK ASTRONOMY, MATHEMATICS AND MEDICINE SUCH AS THE ALMAGEST OF PTOLEMY, THE ELEMENTS OF EUCLID, AND THE WORKS OF HIPPOCRATES AND GALEN, WERE ALL RENDERED INTO ARABIC. Furthermore, IMPORTANT WORKS OF ASTRONOMY, MATHEMATICS AND MEDICINE WERE TRANSLATED FROM PAHLAVI AND SANSKRIT. As a result, ARABIC BECAME THE MOST IMPORTANT SCIENTIFIC LANGUAGE OF THE WORLD FOR MANY CENTURIES and THE DEPOSITORY OF MUCH OF THE WISDOM AND THE SCIENCES OF ANTIQUITY.
The Muslims did not translate the scientific and philosophical works of other civilizations out of fear of political or economic domination but because the structure of Islam itself is based upon the primacy of knowledge. Nor did they consider these forms of knowing as "un-lslamic" as long as they confirmed the doctrine of God's Oneness which Islam considers to have been at the heart of every authentic revelation from God. ONCE THESE SCIENCES AND PHILOSOPHIES CONFIRMED THE PRINCIPLE OF ONENESS, THE MUSLIMS CONSIDERED THEM AS THEIR OWN. THEY MADE THEM PART OF THEIR WORLD VIEW and began to cultivate THE ISLAMIC SCIENCES BASED ON WHAT THEY HAD TRANSLATED, ANALYZED, CRITICIZED, AND ASSIMILATED, rejecting WHAT WAS NOT IN CONFORMITY WITH THE ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVEpeace.
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Peace enquirer,
Is there any wisdom in the quran that is not present in other books/elsewhere?
I really could not answer that question since
• I would not be so bold as to claim I've grasped all the wisdom that the Qur'an offers (and if I ever do, please smack me)
• I would not be so bold to claim that I've grasped all the wisdom in all other books/elsewhere
Is there any objective proof of the qurans validity?
I don't know. I've always followed my inner compass in my search for al-haqq. I think truly objective proof of just about anything is impossible, since the entire universe itself is subjective, or "omni-jective".
Peace,
Tay -
Peace tay and all. I respect your answers,methods,and humbleness...
If i re-word my questions a little,...can our inner compass guide us without the need for the quran specifically? Ie can other scriptures/our experiences lead us to lead a peaceful,decent,moral,responsible life?...?
Is any knowledge that we have even 'relatively' objective...? Ie the fact we need food to survive,is pretty objective... -
Peace all.I would appreciate if anyone else could also shed some light on the two questions i posed to tay,the re-worded questions i asked tay as well...Thank you...
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peace enquirer,
enquirer- Is there any wisdom in the quran that is not present in other books/elsewhere?
- Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the messengers before you; surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution.
by this verse I also understand that if any scientific facts were revealed to the prophet, then surely those scientific facts would have also been revealed to all the messengers before him.
please check this link.
http//integralscience.org/einsteinbuddha/peace.
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Peace agentxxx. Thanks for that link...Very interesting....I always thought that buddha,of all the religious founders,was the most clever...The guy was a genius...
I would like others to comment on what agentxxxs' excellent findings mean,in relation to this current debate.... -
Peace enquirer,
I respect your answers,methods,and humbleness
Likewise
can our inner compass guide us without the need for the quran specifically Ie can other scriptures/our experiences lead us to lead a peaceful,decent,moral,responsible life?...?
Yes.
Is any knowledge that we have even 'relatively' objective...? Ie the fact we need food to survive,is pretty objective...
Yes. For the "hands-on" experience of this life, there are certainly objective truths, ie, cells require nourishment for survival, apples fall down instead of up, etc. Regarding spirituality, however, it is strictly subjective, and this has larger implications than what this thread encompasses. To sum it up, we are "one".
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay. Beautifully expressed...Agree with you fully... bravo yay
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Peace Tay. Why dont you start a new thread relating to the implications of your last post.(if you wish. ))....I think it would be very interesting and hopefully beneficial... bravo yay
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EnquirerIs there any wisdom in the quran that is not present in other books/elsewhere?
I believe fragments of wisdom are present from many sources in human thought. However, one single source of absolute wisdom - which is what i believe al-quraan is - is nowhere present except for al-quraan.
Is there any objective proof of the qurans validity?
There is, but it'll be too late for those who rejected it after al-haqq comes to them (note im not saying al-haqq or ultimate truth/Allah Himself came to anyone, that's not for me to say.)