Safarah
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Salaam Ahmed,
I asked you for a simple verse and the meaning of 'kiram' and you gave a lengthy response with extra unwanted baggage. Nevertheless, when you talk a lot, it is to my advantage.
The word 'kiram' and its derivatives such as 'karim or kareem' to mean honorable, virtuous, generous, pious, righteous, etc. are found throughtout the Quran and is NOT specific to angels. The entire surah 80 speaks about humans, not angels. There is not a word or even a hint which suggests anything to do with angels (malaika) in surah 80. Humans are the ones who travel about to spread the message given, even upto this day and will continue to do so, NOT some mythical angels with wings (as suggested by 351) running around from town to town automatically becoming 'safaras' (travelers) by your wishy washy notions. Also note that I can call any human who posses the status of being honorable, virtuous, righteous, etc., "an angel" (metaphorically speaking). Besides, the status of being honorable is opted towards humans and not angels whom we have neither seen, heard of or witnessed. Last but not least, the word 'angel' can be understood in several ways.
Now here is a tough Question for you my friend
WHY ALLAH DID?T CALL YOUR IMAGINARY SCRIBES IN 8016 AS ?KIRAM KATIBEEN? IF THEY WERE AS SUCH BEARING IN MIND THAT ALLAH CALLED THE ANGELS WHO RECORD WHAT WE DO AS ?KIRAM KATIBEEN? as we read in 8211?
That's a piece of cake and here's my response
BECAUSE THE ENTIRE VERSE SPEAKS IN REFERENCE TO HUMANS, NOT ANGELS. "KIRAM/KARIM" IS NOT SPECIFIC TO ANYTHING AND ALL BOOKS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND HAVE BEEN/ARE ONLY WRITTEN BY HUMANS (MALE/FEMALE), AND THE QURAN BEING AS SUCH. -
This is bizzare, some Muslims and non Muslims say that the quran was written by scribes as stated in sura 80, well I challenge anyone in the whole bloody world to show me where is it in the sura?, I'm sure no one will come forward, here is the whole sura in Arabic, but please don't be silly and bring the word "scribes" from those misleading and ignorant english translations because the Quran is in Arabic, if you don't know how to speak arabic then find someone you trust, whom you can ask the million dollar question, where are the scribes mentioned in sura 80?
I also challenge you to bring the word angel (malaika) mentioned in the entire "surah 80", let alone 8015-16. Your challenges are futile and mute.
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Danish
Just bloody say Thank you instead of your normal rants as I stayed to 200 AM wrting it for ya, well if you don't like my lengthy replies don't ask me any more questions
for you normal rants, you stikl failed to answer why they were called Travellers?
and also where is the action of writing down the quran in sura 80? does not exist
si you just made to yourslef an illusiion and running hot to make it a fact, LOL
for the word Karim, yeh a few was described as such including Allah, so what is your point exactly?
here is the point if I can't prove that they are angels then you should not manipuilate the verses and add an action of writing that does not exist I call this forgery
Salam
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Danish,
Grab a good Old-Arabic dictionary. And look under safarah. Wehrs has it, it is not exactly an old-Arabic dictionary exactly and includes some modern meanings, but it's there. Other dictionaries have it also. Ahmed thinks that his limited knowledge is better than the collective knowledge of other more knowledgeable Arabs compiled into a book and translated into English. There are alot of Old-Arabic words that don't mean what they mean now. No one means 'deen' for law or goverment, or for judgement, and there are tons of other words like these in Old-Arabic and in the Old-Arabic of the Quran that have completely different modern meanings now.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace all,
One of the meanings given in Lane Lexicon for "saafir" is writer or scribe, or angels who record actions. Another meaning of "saafir" (plural safaratin) according to Lane Lexicon is messenger. The occurrences of the root SFR in al-qur'aan are in the following verses
625 meaning books
2184, 2185, 2283, 443, 56, 942, 1862, 3419 meaning traveling or journey.
8015 meaning ? translated scribes by majority of translators (could mean angel messengers too)
7434 meaning bright/shining
8038 meaning bright/shining
Brother Ahmed does have a point though that the preceding verse 8014 means "raised/exalted and purified" and there is no mention of writing, and that the "bi" at the beginning of 8015 refers to the action of raising and purifying mentioned in 8014 and not writing. The question is why did the majority of translators translate SFR in 8015 to scribes ?
Transliteration Bi-aydee safaratin
Literal By messengers'/scribes'/writers' hands.
Free-Minds By the hands of scribes.
Rashad Khalifa (Written) by the hands of messengers.
Yusuf Ali (Written) by the hands of scribes-
Shakir In the hands of scribes
Pickthal (Set down) by scribes
Arberry by the hands of scribes
George Sale by the hands of scribes honoured,
Hilali/Khan In the hands of scribes (angels).
Malik and which remain in the hands of scribes,
Maulana Ali In the hands of scribes,
QXP By the hands of Scribes.
Sarwar by the hands of the noble, virtuous,
M. Asad by the hands of messengersWhat is interesting is in 2283, both "safarin" meaning "traveling" and "kaatiban" meaning "scribe" is mentioned, so it is unlikey that in 8015 it means scribe.
2283 And if you are traveling (safarin) or do not find a scribe (kaatiban), then a pledge of collateral.
The word used in 8015 is "safaratin" which is the plural of "saafir" most likely meaning "messengers" in context of 8015, referring to angels.
Only Allah knows best.
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Peace Tanveer,
Safar means travel, Asfar is its plural and safara meaning travelers. The travelers (safara) were people/humans/scribes.
8015 meaning ? translated scribes by majority of translators (could mean angel messengers too)
Brother Ahmed does have a point though that the preceding verse 8014 means "raised/exalted and purified" and there is no mention of writing, and that the "bi" at the beginning of 8015 refers to the action of raising and purifying mentioned in 8014 and not writing.
The word used in 8015 is "safaratin" which is the plural of "saafir" most likely meaning "messengers" in context of 8015, referring to angels.
The angels are out of question as explained earlier. Besides 'angels' are not the ones getting "raised, exalted and purified" but humans. Also, we do not know who and what angels are and never heard, seen or witnessed one (specially with wings), and I am inclining towards Kyle's thesis.
The question is why did the majority of translators translate SFR in 8015 to scribes ?
You've given your own answer below and scribes back then were travelers, though I believe travelers make better sense
Transliteration Bi-aydee safaratin
Literal By messengers'/scribes'/writers' hands.
Free-Minds By the hands of scribes.
Rashad Khalifa (Written) by the hands of messengers.
Yusuf Ali (Written) by the hands of scribes-
Shakir In the hands of scribes
Pickthal (Set down) by scribes
Arberry by the hands of scribes
George Sale by the hands of scribes honoured,
Hilali/Khan In the hands of scribes (angels).
Malik and which remain in the hands of scribes,
Maulana Ali In the hands of scribes,
QXP By the hands of Scribes.
Sarwar by the hands of the noble, virtuous,
M. Asad by the hands of messengers.By the way do you know what "aydee" means?
What is interesting is in 2283, both "safarin" meaning "traveling" and "kaatiban" meaning "scribe" is mentioned, so it is unlikey that in 8015 it means scribe.
2283 And if you are traveling (safarin) or do not find a scribe (kaatiban), then a pledge of collateral.
Once again, I understand "kaatiban" as writers (from the word kitaab/kutub) who were people/humans/scribes. This verse tells us that in those days, when people were traveling and could not find a "writer", then simply an oral "pledge or a vow" would suffice as trustworthy collateral.
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Salaamun alaikum,
I'm with AB on this one. Do not forget that al-quraan is kitaaban MUTASHABIHAN mathaany (39/23). The mutashabih (containing similarities) aspect is a powerful tool in determining meaning. The root SFR has been used for travelling and so a 'saafir' must certainly be a traveller. This is further augmented by the assertion that Allah protects az-zikr (the eminent one). Travellers carrying al-quraan has made it eminent to the world.
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Salaamun alaikum,
I'm with AB on this one. Do not forget that al-quraan is kitaaban MUTASHABIHAN mathaany (39/23). The mutashabih (containing similarities) aspect is a powerful tool in determining meaning. The root SFR has been used for travelling and so a 'saafir' must certainly be a traveller. This is further augmented by the assertion that Allah protects az-zikr (the eminent one). Travellers carrying al-quraan has made it eminent to the world.
Thank you bro
but I have a question for you, the action od writing was not mentioned in the verse, now you are suggesting that there an action of carrying it as well delivering it to some entities, I say there is not such actions in the sura as well, the only actions mentioned are "Maroaah and muttahra"
can you please elaborate
thanks
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ABbut I have a question for you, the action od writing was not mentioned in the verse, now you are suggesting that there an action of carrying it as well delivering it to some entities, I say there is not such actions in the sura as well, the only actions mentioned are "Maroaah and muttahra"
If it was already 'fee suhufin mukarramah' (80/13), then I don't think the action of writing is necessary. Why would you need to write something already in pages?
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If it was already 'fee suhufin mukarramah' (80/13), then I don't think the action of writing is necessary. Why would you need to write something already in pages?
Cool mate, and I agree totally with you, thanks for adding further compelling logic, however my question was something else, I'm not questioning that the writing action was mentioned in the sura as i know that it was never mentioned but I also disagree that the action of carrying the Quran and delievring it to other tribes and nations is not mentioned in the whole sura either
cheers
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And I have to thank you for bringing this to my attention. I didn't even notice the word saafirah before you brought it up but this completes a lot of things for me. So shukran jazeelan for that!
Mquran
I think my english has failed me again, here is the sentence revised
"I also disagree that the action of carrying the Quran and delievring it to other tribes and nations is mentioned in the whole sura either"
I removed the word "Not" from it, would it make sense to you now?
sorry for that