A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23

savage_carrot

Peace,

Just a few questions, I have discussed this before as well and after reading the posts and verses presented, it does raise some issues.

Show me where 423 allows polygamy. Mentioning that bigamy is forbidden in a specific case does not mean polygamy is allowed in other cases.

Well, if the mentioning of bigamy in this specific case happens to be THE ONLY forbidding of this kind, that's exactly what it means. Unless you're forbidding what Allah allows, of course
.

This raises flags as mquran said...if the mention of bigamy happens to be a special case that's forbidden, it begs the question so in other cases it's okay? Secondly, regarding 2432, you would obviously marry off the single among us and the good from the male and female servants as they are the ones most in need (of help/encouragement/support/finances?) to get married. Marry off being the key. If one is independant, they can marry themselves and it will not be someone marrying them off. Thus, those independent are the ones who are already married or not and capable of supporting their family and do not need to be 'married off'. One would think that if polygamy was going to be an issue, we would have a direct verse about it rather than only a specific instance where it is forbidden. I would like more clarification here. Is there a break after the word single in the verse 2432 meaning that it does not only apply to the servants that follow in the same sentence? How/why do we put the comma there?

unknownuser

Peace all,

Why would it be "marry off" in 2432 and "marry" in 43; it is the same word. Why can't it be "marry" in 2432 ?

Most translators say "marry" instead of marry off in 2432

Yusuf Ali Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.
Shakir And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
Pickthal And marry such of you as are solitary and the pious of your slaves and maid-servants. If they be poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.
Arberry Marry the spouseless among you, and your slaves and handmaidens that are righteous; if they are poor, God will enrich them of His bounty; God is All-embracing, All-knowing.
George Sale Marry those who are single among you, and such as are honest of your men-servants, and your maid-servants If they be poor, God will enrich them of his abundance; for God is bounteous and wise.
Hilali/Khan And marry those among you who are single (i.e. a man who has no wife and the woman who has no husband) and (also marry) the Salihoon (pious, fit and capable ones) of your (male) slaves and maid-servants (female slaves). If they be poor, Allah will enrich them out of His Bounty. And Allah is All-Sufficent for His creatures needs, All-Knowing (about the state of the people).
Malik Get the singles among you married as well as those who are fit for marriage among your male slaves and female slaves. If they are poor, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace for Allah has boundless resources and is All-Knowing.
Maulana Ali And marry those among you who are single, and those who are fit among your males slaves and your female slaves. If they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace. And Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
QXP And marry the single among you, (whether they are widowed, divorced or bachelors). And those who are still being kept as slaves, male or female, such of them as are fit to marry. If they are poor, Allah will enrich them with His Bounty, for, Allah is of Infinite means, All-Knowing.
Sarwar Marry the single people among you and the righteous slaves and slave-girls. If you are poor, God will make you rich through His favor; He is Bountiful and All-knowing.

savage_carrot

In addition to the above by platinum

Why would it be "marry off" in 2432 and "marry" in 43; it is the same word. Why can't it be "marry" in 2432 ?

Two questions

If it is marry then does this still mean there is a break after the word single?
If the break is subjective and the word is still marry, why does it not make sense that it is more of a social guidance that we should help the single from among the servants and the poor to get married?

Okay edited to put in the literal, explanations welcomed.

2432 Waankihoo al-ayama minkum waalssaliheena min AAibadikum wa-ima-ikum in yakoonoo fuqaraa yughnihimu Allahu min fadlihi waAllahu wasiAAun AAaleemun

And marry the widows/widowers from you, and the correct/righteous from your slaves/servants and your owned (F) slaves, if they be poor/needy God enriches/suffices them from His grace/favour/blessing, and God (is) rich/spread , knowledgeable.

In my current understanding, this makes it even more of a social guidance if the words are the widows/widowers. In many countries there is prejudice and dicrimination against divorced/widowed women more so than men and on the women's side they get left out for never married girls. Given a choice many women/girls would opt for never married men too as they say it has less baggage to deal with. Maybe this is a way of telling people that we should not discriminate against them for never-married/well-off people?

unknownuser

Peace all,

I think the break after single or the comma is because "single" is from "minkum" and "saliheen" is from the servants. So 2432 is asking us to marry the single AMONG US (us all), and is also giving us a second advice to marry the "saliheen" from the servants. That makes it clear that Allah is not allowing polygamy, because in case of polygamy a person marries an already married, and not a single.

savage_carrot

Oops sorry platinum, didn't see your post. Can you edit the one above to explain the words used in the literal as widows/widowers? Peace.

unknownuser

Peace SC,

The Arabic word in 2432 is "ayama" which means "unmarried man or woman; single or widowed or divorced; one who lives in celibacy" according to Lisan al-Arab, Lane Lexicon, Taj al-Arus.

unknownuser

Peace all,

I further think that Allah did not categorically forbid polygamy in The Quran because then there could not have been ANY exception for Prophet Muhammad. As is clear from 2432, however, Allah does not allow polygamy for any of us, the exception being that of Prophet Muhammad.

Similarly in 420 Allah talks about replacing one wife with another, which also shows that one can marry again ONLY after divorcing the previous wife.

Also in the rules of inheritance Allah mentions all the possibilities of dividing the inheritance but nowhere He mentions what to do if there are more than one wife; did Allah forget about polygamy possibility ?

As Allah never contradicts His words, 43 can only mean "marry off" the female orphans, and not "marry" them more than one at a time, otherwise a contradiction is created between 2432 ad 420 and 43 and the verses about inheritance.

savage_carrot

Peace platinum,

Thanks for the clarification, would like to add my thoughts at this point...

I further think that Allah did not categorically forbid polygamy in The Quran is because then there could not have been ANY exception for Prophet Muhammad. As is clear from 2432, however, Allah does not allow polygamy for any of us, the exception being that of Prophet Muhammad.
This has struck me as odd, that polygamy is allowed in one case and not in the other cases for mankind. If polygamy is not categorically forbidden, then 2432 is just social advice? Like women should lengthen their garments? If the prophet is setting an example, then I believe the special exception only for him to have multiple wives is quite hard to explain. After going through all the 'historical' reasons, I can still not come up with any reason why only he was allowed so. If he is setting an example who to marry, then it follows that this example is for the rest of mankind inclusive of polygamy? Or we should disregard the polygamy and only focus on the 'category' of people he married as those were the examples shown? I think people can appreciate a slight dilemma here.

Similarly in 420 Allah talks about replacing one wife with another, which also shows that one can marry again ONLY after divorcing the previous wife.
Literal
And if you wanted exchanging (to exchange) a spouse (in) place (of a) spouse, and you (P) gave one of them (F) a ton , so do not take from it a thing, do you take it wrongfully/slanderfully, and an evident sin/crime?

Can this also not read that if we wanted to divorce one wife for another one we shall not take anything from them? If polygamy is not forbidden then we can replace whichever one we want to exchange or divorce and do the rest as advised in the verse? It works both ways unless there is something I'm missing? Also, how is 4129 explained?

Literal And you will never be able that you be just/equitable between the women, and (even) if you held onto stingily and desired strongly (were very careful), so do not bend/sway all the bend/inclination, so you leave her as/like the suspended neither properly married nor divorced and free to remarry (abused, abandoned and neglected), and if you reconciliate, and you fear and obey (God), so then God was/is a forgiving, merciful.

Also in the rules of inheritance Allah mentions all the possibilities of dividing the inheritance but nowhere He mentions what to do if there are more than one wife; did Allah forget about polygamy possibility ?
I have not studied all the laws of inheritance yet, but is there not a single possibility left out? What about the possibility of writing wills which is very strongly advised?

As Allah never contradicts His words, 43 can only mean "marry off" the female orphans, and not "marry" them more than one at a time, otherwise a contradiction is created between 2432 ad 420 and 43 and the verses about inheritance.
I don't see a contradiction with the verses of inheritance as one can write a will, and if in a strange situation can adapt. As for why only marry off? I would like to know why it stops at 4? Why not many more? Wouldn't that make more sense? Secondly, I discussed this with bro Ayman a year back. He raised some good points which I would like to quote here

Orphans can be BOTH male and female children and the fear of being inequitable certainly applies to both. The sign in 43 mentions THREE entities "orphans", "women", and "those possessed by your oath". The wrong interpretation of "marry-off" is forced to assume that orphans ("yatama&quot and women ("nisa'a&quot are EXACTLY the same entity. Had the sign of 43 meant for them to be the same entity then there would have been nothing wrong with saying "And if you feared that you will not be equitable in the orphans, so marry off those who consented to you from the them ("minhun&quot..." But of course 43 doesn't say that.

A verse that perhaps can make it clear that the two entities "yatama" and women are different and that "yatama" belong to "women" (i.e. the women are widows and the "yatama" are either their biological or adopted children) is verse 4127 that you quote

And they ask you for an opinion/clarification in the women, say " The God decrees/clarifies concerning
(1) them (F) and what is read/recited on you in the book concerning the orphans (F and M) of the women (F) who (F) you did not give them (F) what was written/dictated to them (F) and you desire that you marry them (F), and
(2) the weakened from the children (F and M),
(3) and that you take care of the orphans (F and M) with the just/equitable,
and what you do from goodness indeed The God was/is with it knowledgeable."

(F) Female
(M) Male

(1) is talking about WOMEN.
(2) is talking about children who are not orphans
(3) is talking about orphans

As for self-protection, it is synonymous with maturity. Of course, the age of maturity will be different from one person to the other.

unknownuser

Peace Nadya, platinum, all,

Thank you platinum and sister Nadya for some interesting points.

I agree with platinum that it only can be "marry" in 2432 instead of "marry off", because of the context of 2433.

2432 And marry those that are single among you, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2433 And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.

Those addressed in the first part of 2433 are a subset of those addressed in 2432. "Marry off" will make no sense in 2433, hence If it is "marry" in 2433 it has to be "marry" in 2432.

I think this verse is the key to the issue of polygamy. In this verse Allah is asking us to marry the single among us. This clearly makes polygamy impossible, and allows only monogamy. For example if a single woman marries a married man then the woman is not marrying a single but she is marrying a married man which would go against 2432.

If according to the faulty logic presented by mquran, polygamy is allowed because there is no verse making it haram in al-qur'aan, then by the same faulty logic, polyandry (more than one husband at the same time) should be allowed also because there is no verse making it haram in al-qur'aan either. Extending the same faulty logic, marrying 3 or more sisters at a time would be allowed because 423 forbids marrying ONLY 2 sisters at a time.

The beauty of 2432 is that in a very eloquent way, it makes both polyandry and polygamy impossible, and makes only monogamy possible.

The only exception to this general rule is that for Prophet Muhammad, who was allowed polygamy only as a special privilege given to him and not to all believers

3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are still dependant. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

If Allah had forbidden polygamy, then there would have been no room for the exception for Prophet Muhammad.

This has struck me as odd, that polygamy is allowed in one case and not in the other cases for mankind. If polygamy is not categorically forbidden, then 2432 is just social advice? Like women should lengthen their garments? If the prophet is setting an example, then I believe the special exception only for him to have multiple wives is quite hard to explain. After going through all the 'historical' reasons, I can still not come up with any reason why only he was allowed so. If he is setting an example who to marry, then it follows that this example is for the rest of mankind inclusive of polygamy? Or we should disregard the polygamy and only focus on the 'category' of people he married as those were the examples shown? I think people can appreciate a slight dilemma here.

I think the reason Allah allowed polygamy to Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in the following verse, in the blue part

3337 And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you "Keep your wife and reverence God," and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.

Hence when following the example of the Prophet, we should disregard the polygamy (based on 2432) and only focus on the 'category' of people he married as those were the examples shown.

Can this also not read that if we wanted to divorce one wife for another one we shall not take anything from them? If polygamy is not forbidden then we can replace whichever one we want to exchange or divorce and do the rest as advised in the verse? It works both ways unless there is something I'm missing?

Let's break it down

Rule #1 according to 2432 Allah is asking us to marry only the single among us

Rule #2 according to 420 One wife can be replaced by another wife i.e. a divorce has to take place before one marries another wife

When a married male believer marries a second wife, the second wife would have broken the Rule #1 because he is already married and the married male believer also would have broken Rule #2 because he did not take a wife instead of another (divorce then marriage).

Single man ----> married man (first wife). Now as soon as this married man marries SECOND wife without divorcing first wife, he breaks Rule #2. So the state of polygamy won't even be reached in the first place (without breaking the rules) to have Rule #2 applied to a polygamous situation.

Also, how is 4129 explained?

4129 And you will not be able to be fair regarding/between the women even if you make every effort; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. And if you reconcile and do right, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Here you is plural, that is why plural women is used; "women" does not refer to "wives" of one person, but to "wives" of married men as a whole. 4129 is not about polygamy but is about women's rights. The context is wife fearing desertion from her husband when marriage is not working out. It is a statement of fact that it is not possible for all men to be completely fair with all women in that context, but even if marriage is not working out and husband is thinking of divorcing his wife, she should not be left "hanging" by swaying too greatly from her, i.e. her rights as a wife should still be fulfilled. In brief the women here are not one man's wives.

I have not studied all the laws of inheritance yet, but is there not a single possibility left out? What about the possibility of writing wills which is very strongly advised?

God is never forgetful. In the inheritance verses, there is no mention that if a man has two wives/spouses or more, they share a quarter or any other portion. The portion of the daughters if there are two or more (and no sons) is two-thirds (411), after legacies or debts. When there is no ascendants or descendants, the brothers and sisters share in a third if they are more than two, after legacies or debts. If there are no children, the spouse inherits the quarter of the husbands? inheritance, after legacies or debts (412). Verse 412 only makes concise perfect sense when there is no polygamy, otherwise if a man has 4 wives, it is not clear if each wife gets a quarter or a sixteenth or any other portion, after legacies or debts, unless we rely on other sources for inheritance rules.

Why did God mention portion of two or more daughters, and two or more brothers and sisters, but did not mention portion of two or more wives ??

All this is AFTER a will is carried out. I agree that two or more wives can be addressed in a will, but AFTER a will is carried out, other scenarios are discussed by God but TWO OR MORE WIVES SCENARIO IS NOT DISCUSSED. Why is that ?

As for why only marry off? I would like to know why it stops at 4? Why not many more? Wouldn't that make more sense?

I think "two's, three's, and four's" is an idiom for "by groups".

It does not stop at four, but at four's. It DOES NOT say "two, three, four" but says "two's, three's, and four's" meaning "group of two or two at a time, group of three or three at a time, group of four or four at a time". If it is "marry" instead of "marry off" in 43, does it make sense to marry four women in a group or four women at the same time ?

One must accept that nobody marries two three or four wives at the same time! But that?s exactly what it means if we take "ankuhu" as "marry" instead of "marry off".

Secondly, I discussed this with bro Ayman a year back. He raised some good points which I would like to quote here

Let's see the translation of 43 by translating as "marry off"

43 And if you fear you can't do justice to the orphans, then marry off the women (orphans) who have agreed with you two's, three's and four's. But if you fear that you will be unfair then (marry off) by one or what your oath/right hand possessed as this is better than getting into hardship.

This translation is not forced to assume that orphans and women are the same entity. The advice for marrying off is for the women orphans only because husbands are the providers for the wives, and by marrying off the women orphans, they are guaranteed provision and protection by their husbands, thereby easing the hardship and burden from the guardian.

4127 And they ask you judgement about women. Say God will instruct you about them and you will also read in the book concerning the orphaned women to which you intend to deny what has been ordained to them and wish to marry them off, as well as to regard the vulnerable children, that you should be just in the matter of orphans. God knows whatever good you do.

Verse 4127 is again about marrying off the orphaned women and not marrying them. "yatama al-nisai" here is not "orphan's of the women" but means "orphaned women" or "women orphans".

There are plenty of verses that deal with marriage, marrying an orphan is no different from marrying any other woman.

Obviously what you give to the orphans is what is ordained/recorded for them through inheritance and not dowers (in verses 42-6 and 4127).

The vulnerable children are simply orphans (male and female) who have not reached maturity or a marriageable age yet in opposite to orphaned women (verses 43 and 4127).

In the verse above 4127, God tells us that we will find in the book the mention of the orphaned woman with regard marrying them off and with regard to their inheritance, this is only found in the initial verses of Chapter 4(43-4).

The addressed (audience) and their role in verse 4127 are consistent Carers responsible for the orphans and their financial affairs rather than carers and potential husbands at the same time (with "marry" and "dowers" interpretation).

Peace and regards

mquran

TanveerIf according to the faulty logic presented by mquran, polygamy is allowed because there is no verse making it haram in al-qur'aan, then by the same faulty logic, polyandry (more than one husband at the same time) should be allowed also because there is no verse making it haram in al-qur'aan either. Extending the same faulty logic, marrying 3 or more sisters at a time would be allowed because 423 forbids marrying ONLY 2 sisters at a time

Tanveer, before anything, allow me to tell you how my logic can be faulty. If you produced a verse which contradicted my assertion, then yes my logic is faulty. If you found fault with my deduction (the quran is in detail, it doesnt prohibit polygamy), then yes again.

What you described above isn't 'faulty logic' but 'an offense to Tanveer's sensibilities' which I don't mind telling you isn't my furqaan. Al-quraan doesnt prohibit polygamy, whether polygyny or polyandry. Are you offended by this? Gotta take it up with the author, not me.

As for marrying 3 or more sisters, I'd like to ask you, when you marry 3 sisters, have you married 2 sisters? Is it possible for you to marry 3 sisters without first marrying the first two? Then when you've married the first two, if you're a believer, the marriage isn't valid.

The only exception to this general rule is that for Prophet Muhammad, who was allowed polygamy only as a special privilege given to him and not to all believers

That's rather sneaky of you to chop up verses like that, Tanveer? Surely your personal prejudices can't be that compelling, can it? Its funny how you were so insistent on 4/23 but don't mind chopping this verse up.

I think the reason Allah allowed polygamy to Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in the following verse, in the blue part

Then the address would be 'zawjan nabi' not 'AZWAAJUN nabi'. More than two wives..

unknownuser

What you described above isn't 'faulty logic' but 'an offense to Tanveer's sensibilities' which I don't mind telling you isn't my furqaan. Al-quraan doesnt prohibit polygamy, whether polygyny or polyandry. Are you offended by this? Gotta take it up with the author, not me.

When did I say that the faulty logic is saying polygamy and polyandry is not prohibited. The faulty logic is deducing that polygamy and polyandry are allowed by Allah because they are not prohibited. Something may not be prohibited does not mean it is allowed. 2432 combined with 420 makes only monogamy possible, thus making polygamy/polyandry impossible/discouraged. Hence something may be made impossible and discouraged even though it is not prohibited.

As for marrying 3 or more sisters, I'd like to ask you, when you marry 3 sisters, have you married 2 sisters? Is it possible for you to marry 3 sisters without first marrying the first two? Then when you've married the first two, if you're a believer, the marriage isn't valid.

43 talks about "marrying" in groups of 3-4 meaning one man marrying 3-4 women at the same time (with the mistranslation of marrying). Hence one could marry 3 or more sisters at the same time and that would be ok per the faulty understanding of 423 (and 43). The faulty logic is obvious.

savage_carrot

Peace bro Tanveer,

Thank you for your detailed post.

Those addressed in the first part of 2433 are a subset of those addressed in 2432. "Marry off" will make no sense in 2433, hence If it is "marry" in 2433 it has to be "marry" in 2432.
Okay, let's keep it marry and not marry off because that's just adding to the words anyhow.

I think this verse is the key to the issue of polygamy. In this verse Allah is asking us to marry the single among us. This clearly makes polygamy impossible, and allows only monogamy. For example if a single woman marries a married man then the woman is not marrying a single but she is marrying a married man which would go against 2432.
I see it as working both ways really. As social advice. Especially as polygyny is not expressly forbidden and yet you have only one special case where it is? That is very strange, you must admit? If polygyny is forbidden why the verse do not marry two sisters at the same time? Where is the sense in that?

The beauty of 2432 is that in a very eloquent way, it makes both polyandry and polygamy impossible, and makes only monogamy possible.
I do see the beauty of the verses but not in that sense. It does not forbid it anywhere YET gives only a single situation where we can't?

The only exception to this general rule is that for Prophet Muhammad, who was allowed polygamy only as a special privilege given to him and not to all believers If Allah had forbidden polygamy, then there would have been no room for the exception for Prophet Muhammad.
This does not mean that polygyny as a whole is forbidden? It can mean that polygyny in a limited sense is permitted and only in special circumstances? And once again the same comes up that polygyny is NOT forbidden. Why not just say polygyny is forbidden and it's only a special privilege for the prophet?

Hence when following the example of the Prophet, we should disregard the polygamy (based on 2432) and only focus on the 'category' of people he married as those were the examples shown.
Once again, I don't think based on all the verses that a)polygyny is forbidden and b)The prophet had to marry ALL the categories of women to prove a point or set an example.

Rule #1 according to 2432 Allah is asking us to marry only the single among us
Bro, polygyny is NOT forbidden and secondly this is social advice coupled with the verse where there is only a special situation where polygyny is not allowed. It's like saying don't force your daughters to prostitution if they are unwilling. Why on God's green earth would you advise them to even if they were willing?

Rule #2 according to 420 One wife can be replaced by another wife i.e. a divorce has to take place before one marries another wife
No, one wife can be replaced by another and divorce takes place if they don't want to stay together anymore.

4129 And you will not be able to be fair regarding/between the women even if you make every effort; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. And if you reconcile and do right, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Here you is plural, that is why plural women is used; "women" does not refer to "wives" of one person, but to "wives" of married men as a whole.
Let's say you will not be fair with women period as you are suggesting we read the verse as (wives of married men). Then it follows that God is saying a man cannot be fair with his wife even if he tried and thus should not leave her hanging in a void? This clearly does not read right?

God is never forgetful. In the inheritance verses, there is no mention that if a man has two wives/spouses or more, they share a quarter or any other portion. The portion of the daughters if there are two or more (and no sons) is two-thirds (411), after legacies or debts. When there is no ascendants or descendants, the brothers and sisters share in a third if they are more than two, after legacies or debts. If there are no children, the spouse inherits the quarter of the husbands? inheritance, after legacies or debts (412). Verse 412 only makes concise perfect sense when there is no polygamy, otherwise if a man has 4 wives, it is not clear if each wife gets a quarter or a sixteenth or any other portion, after legacies or debts, unless we rely on other sources for inheritance rules.

Why did God mention portion of two or more daughters, and two or more brothers and sisters, but did not mention portion of two or more wives ??

All this is AFTER a will is carried out. I agree that two or more wives can be addressed in a will, but AFTER a will is carried out, other scenarios are discussed by God but TWO OR MORE WIVES SCENARIO IS NOT DISCUSSED. Why is that ?
Maybe because polygyny would be a rare situation and the man should have already written his will to reflect a situation that is beyond ordinary? There are many things not mentioned in the quran. What is mentioned is what God deemed important. You cannot assume that just because a certain situation is NOT mentioned it should have been there?

I think "two's, three's, and four's" is an idiom for "by groups".

It does not stop at four, but at four's. It DOES NOT say "two, three, four" but says "two's, three's, and four's" meaning "group of two or two at a time, group of three or three at a time, group of four or four at a time". If it is "marry" instead of "marry off" in 43, does it make sense to marry four women in a group or four women at the same time ?

One must accept that nobody marries two three or four wives at the same time! But that?s exactly what it means if we take "ankuhu" as "marry" instead of "marry off".
So here it is marry off? In either case, that is what was discussed previously, that if a man wants to be polygynous he should marry a group at the same time. This would make for better equality among the wives. Just because nobody does it probably means they don't interpret it right and should not be taken as no one does it so it's not possible or wrong or forbidden.

This translation is not forced to assume that orphans and women are the same entity. The advice for marrying off is for the women orphans only because husbands are the providers for the wives, and by marrying off the women orphans, they are guaranteed provision and protection by their husbands, thereby easing the hardship and burden from the guardian.

This does not address the point here =

Had the sign of 43 meant for them to be the same entity then there would have been nothing wrong with saying "And if you feared that you will not be equitable in the orphans, so marry off those who consented to you from the them ("minhun&quot..." But of course 43 doesn't say that.

Verse 4127 is again about marrying off the orphaned women and not marrying them. "yatama al-nisai" here is not "orphan's of the women" but means "orphaned women" or "women orphans".

There are plenty of verses that deal with marriage, marrying an orphan is no different from marrying any other woman.

Obviously what you give to the orphans is what is ordained/recorded for them through inheritance and not dowers (in verses 42-6 and 4127).

The vulnerable children are simply orphans (male and female) who have not reached maturity or a marriageable age yet in opposite to orphaned women (verses 43 and 4127).

In the verse above 4127, God tells us that we will find in the book the mention of the orphaned woman with regard marrying them off and with regard to their inheritance, this is only found in the initial verses of Chapter 4(43-4).

The addressed (audience) and their role in verse 4127 are consistent Carers responsible for the orphans and their financial affairs rather than carers and potential husbands at the same time (with "marry" and "dowers" interpretation).
Bro, you are just repeating points here, you have not addressed ayman's translation? Please show me where it errs as that would be most helpful. He has also labelled the genders thankfully for me, so it's easier.

Rgds,
Nadya

warner

Again Polygamy is allowed

4 24

Yusuf Ali Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

Transliteration Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).

The Quraan clearly says in above verse "Cannot marry already married women (Nisa_i)"
AND NOT already married men. Why prohibition for only married women , the verse could have easily prohibited for men also.

Peace Tanveer,

You misunderstood when I tried to explain about 2 or 3 sisters.

Your argument on 3 sisters is very naive. How can you get married to 3 without getting married to 2. If you are getting married to the third, that means you are already married to 2 which is not allowed in 423. Most simple logic.

If polygamy is not allowed the restriction to marry 2 sisters at the same time is not necessary to be told specifically.

Sorry, did not mean to offend you.

mquran

TanveerWhen did I say that the faulty logic is saying polygamy and polyandry is not prohibited. The faulty logic is deducing that polygamy and polyandry are allowed by Allah because they are not prohibited. Something may not be prohibited does not mean it is allowed. 2432 combined with 420 makes only monogamy possible, thus making polygamy/polyandry impossible/discouraged. Hence something may be made impossible and discouraged even though it is not prohibited.

Tanveer, my concern is whether polygamy is haraam or not. When I read al-quraan, the word 'halaal' is used opposite to haraam. So if polygamy is not haraam, it is halaal. Whether it's encouraged or discouraged, that's not the issue I'm concerned with at present.

Is polygamy haraam?

43 talks about "marrying" in groups of 3-4 meaning one man marrying 3-4 women at the same time (with the mistranslation of marrying). Hence one could marry 3 or more sisters at the same time and that would be ok per the faulty understanding of 423 (and 43). The faulty logic is obvious

Nice one )

Imagine a triple marriage event where you're going to marry sisters A, B, and C. A marriage like any other deal is solemnised through a contract with witnesses. So you sign to marry A. As soon as you're about to marry B, the law comes into place. As a believer, you have to follow it. How are you ever going to marry C?

warner

Peace All

If you look at the verses related to marriage and relationship with women you will notice a clear pattern in who initiates the marriage and who is being given in marriage.

A Guardian/parent initiating marriage (or gives away in marriage)

Guardian in case of Orphan.
(We can see how strongly Quraan emphasizes about giving orphans in marriage and marrying orphans just like it emphasizes all relationship and treatment of orphans. First part of Sura Nisaa (Chapter 2) is about relationships with women and naturally marriage. The first verse deals with your mother and probably grand mothers and very close female relations and amazingly the Quraan sticking to the importance it places on the orphans, immediately moves to the subject of orphan women in verse 2. Beautiful.)

Parent giving son or daughter in marriage

Elders/relatives giving the young in the family or in the society/neighborhood in marriage

Master in the case of the slave

Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in the Quraan, mainly in Chapter 4 and 24.

2 A man initiating marriage (This should be older mature independent and maybe already married)

The verses are quite clear. Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in Chapter 2, 4, and 24,33

3 A woman initiating marriage (This is an older mature independent woman)

The verse 2432 is dealing with this.

2432
And marry such of you as are solitary/single and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they were poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.

2432 deals with men and women who can make a decision on their own. If they chose they can marry even their slaves.

Men can get married to only single women. If women are allowed to get married to already married men, we wonder why, the word "single" in the verse dealing with women marrying whoever they want. Because it is not encouraged for a woman (when she is initiating marriage) to chose a man already married. But if a man already married chooses to marry her then there is no issue. From what I gather it's a way of discouraging single independent women from pursuing already married men.

But importantly, the only situation where an independent woman can chose a husband already married is allowed in 3350 with regard to the prophet. (3350 ...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers...)
Although the prophet is already married a believing woman can offer to marry him and this is only for the prophet and not for other believers.

These are my humble opinion and please add your thoughts.

Samia

This is a comment on what Tanweer quoted from Aymen, concerning verses 43/127

First The term "yatama" is a masculine plural of "yateem". It could also be a plural for a mixture with at least one masculine. Feminine plural of "yateema" is "yateemaat".

Second An orphan, or a "yateem/yateema" is a child. An adult is not called yateem/yateema, otherwise, most women are "yateemaat".

Third The adjectival idafa (adjective in the form "X of Y" as in Yatamal-nisaa&#039 is not valid in such context. The adjectival idafa describes a part of a whole, such as in ( rajulun qawiyul shakhsiya a man strong in personality). And the "whole" has to be mentioned. You can't just throw an adjectival idafa like that, without the "whole" being mentioned or known a priori.

Otherwise, we should understand that (nisaa'ul mu'mineen) means (almu'minaat)

A last general comment (and specially for Tanweer) can you please make your replies shorter? You can post as many replies as you want, but try to make a reply respond to fewer points as possible to make it short and precise.

Thanks

unknownuser

Peace sister Nadya,

So here it is marry off?

"ankihoo" can mean "marry" or "marry off" depending on the context of the word. In 2432 the context is marry. What I am trying to determine is if it means "marry" or "marry off" in 43 and 4127

In either case, that is what was discussed previously, that if a man wants to be polygynous he should marry a group at the same time. This would make for better equality among the wives. Just because nobody does it probably means they don't interpret it right and should not be taken as no one does it so it's not possible or wrong or forbidden.

Alhamdulillah we are making some progress ! I agree that if it is "marry" in 43 then in the situation described in 43 one should marry a group at the same time. Overwhelming majority of the people mistranslate this part of the verse thereby giving it a false meaning. So according to al-qur'aan, the only way one can practice polygamy in a limited situation is if one marries a group ONLY (provided it is "marry" in that verse).

I see it as working both ways really. As social advice. Bro, polygyny is NOT forbidden and secondly this is social advice coupled with the verse where there is only a special situation where polygyny is not allowed. It's like saying don't force your daughters to prostitution if they are unwilling. Why on God's green earth would you advise them to even if they were willing?

If something is not forbidden in al-qur'aan, it does not automatically make it "halal". There could be a third category of things that Allah does not make "haram" but does not want us to do it. Those things cannot be labelled "halal". Example is alcohol and gambling. Another example "could be" polygyny, which is what I am trying to determine.

According to my understanding of a third category of things that Allah has not forbidden but does not want us to do it, polygyny falls into that category. The verse about alcohol and gambling is also social advice, but that does not make alcohol or gambling "halal".

Why not just say polygyny is forbidden and it's only a special privilege for the prophet?

In my understanding, when something is made "haram" or forbidden by Allah, it is forbidden for EVERYONE, and the exceptions to that forbidden thing if stated are also for EVERYONE. (Example, pork meat is forbidden for EVERYONE, and in a life threatening situation it is allowed for EVERYONE as an exception). So if Allah had said polygyny is forbidden then it has to be forbidden for EVERYONE, thus it cannot be that polygyny is forbidden but it is allowed as special privilege only to the Prophet.

The verse that you referred to about not forcing daughters into prostitution, some translators say that it is not prostitution that is being referred to there but something else; I have not done enough research in that yet.

If polygyny is forbidden why the verse do not marry two sisters at the same time? Where is the sense in that?

Only 2 sister situation was forbidden for polygyny and so even the Prophet was not allowed to marry two sisters at the same time. In my understanding, the reason other situations of polygyny were not forbidden is because if those other situations were forbidden then there would have been no room to give the Prophet special privileges of polygyny. Remember, throughout al-qur'aan the exceptions for a forbidden thing are for EVERYONE and not only for one person.

No, one wife can be replaced by another and divorce takes place if they don't want to stay together anymore.

You didn't get what I was trying to tell you. Lets start from scratch. A man X gets married to a woman Y, so Y will be the first wife. Now if he marries another woman Z, without divorcing Y, he will violate the rule in 420. So one cannot reach a polygamous situation without violating 420 first.

Why did Allah just not say "if you wish to divorce your wife do not take from her a thing" ? Why did He say "if you wish to exchange a spouse in place of a spouse........" ?

Let's say you will not be fair with women period as you are suggesting we read the verse as (wives of married men). Then it follows that God is saying a man cannot be fair with his wife even if he tried and thus should not leave her hanging in a void? This clearly does not read right?

I am not saying that the verse implies that men cannot be fair with women period. I am saying that the verse implies that men cannot be fair with their wives in a certain situation in marriage when the husband is so upset with his wife for some reason that he is thinking of divorcing her. It is impossible for a man to think straight in that situation and be fair (example husband catches his wife cheating on him and is now so upset that he is thinking of divorcing her). Hence Allah is saying that even in that situation, keep providing for her and protect her as much as you can and do not leave her "hanging". As I said, this verse is about the rights of a wife.

The verse does not read right if one has a preconceived notion or bias that men can be fair even when they are so upset with their wives that they are thinking of divorcing.

Maybe because polygyny would be a rare situation and the man should have already written his will to reflect a situation that is beyond ordinary? There are many things not mentioned in the quran. What is mentioned is what God deemed important. You cannot assume that just because a certain situation is NOT mentioned it should have been there?

It does not matter if it is a rare situation or not. The verses of inheritance give all other scenarios of "two or more" AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL except that of "two or more wives". All this is AFTER a will is carried out. I agree that two or more wives can be addressed in a will, but AFTER a will is carried out, other scenarios are discussed by God but TWO OR MORE WIVES SCENARIO IS NOT DISCUSSED. Why is that ?

Two or more wives maybe a rare situation BUT IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE, unless you think that a wife is not as important as a daughter or sister. Why did Allah mention about the situation of two or more daughters, and two or more sisters, but not two or more wives AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL ??? Is a wife not as important as a daughter or sister ? Did Allah forget about the possibility of two or more wives ?

This does not address the point here =

Quote from ayman
Had the sign of 43 meant for them to be the same entity then there would have been nothing wrong with saying "And if you feared that you will not be equitable in the orphans, so marry off those who consented to you from the them ("minhun&quot..." But of course 43 doesn't say that.

I did address that point. Brother Ayman said that if 43 means "marry off" then orphans and women have to be the same entity. I said that they don't have to be the same entity. The only change in my understanding is that by "women" in 43 Allah means the mothers of the orphans (thanks to sister Samia's explanation). Still it doesn't ask the guardian of the orphans to marry them but to marry off the mothers of the orphans in groups. The mothers of the orphans are also dependent women because of the death of their husbands, so a guardian can marry them off to other men in groups.

My understanding of 4127 is almost same as that of brother Ayman's except that in my understanding "tankihoohunna" means "marry them off" in 4127 not "marry them". According to my understanding 4127 translates to

And they ask you for an opinion/clarification in the women, say " The God decrees/clarifies concerning
(1) them (F) and what is read/recited on you in the book concerning the orphans (F and M) of the women (F) who (F) you did not give them (F) what was written/dictated to them (F) and you desire that you marry them off (F), and
(2) the weakened from the children (F and M),
(3) and that you take care of the orphans (F and M) with the just/equitable,
and what you do from goodness indeed The God was/is with it knowledgeable."

ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT

Let me bring another important point to your attention, which I think is the clincher in favor of "marry off" in 43.

The word used for DOWRY in Al-Quran, implying that you have to marry, is always "UJURAHUNNA" and not "SADUQATIHINNA" which is used in 44 meaning INHERITANCE and not dowry, therefore clearly meaning MARRY OFF and not marry in 43.

44 And give the women their INHERITANCE (saduqatihinna) willingly, and if they remit any of it to you of their own will, then you may take it with good feelings.

Waatoo alnnisaa SADUQATIHINNA nihlatan fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan fakuloohu hanee-an maree-an

If Allah meant in 43 for us to marry the widows He would have used the word "UJURAHUNNA" in 44 meaning give them their dowry. However Allah uses the word "SADUQATIHINNA" for what we are supposed to give to the widows clearly meaning we are to MARRY THEM OFF and give them their INHERITANCE. Wherever Allah is talking about MARRY He uses the word "UJURAHUNNA" meaning dowry as in the following ayat

426 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing independent women, then from the still dependant believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their DOWRY in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers.

..................... fainkihoohunna bi-ithni ahlihinna waatoohunna UJURAHUNNA bialmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin fa-itha ohsinna fa-in atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi

57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their DOWRY, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers.

..................... allatheena ootoo alkitaba min qablikum itha ataytumoohunna UJURAHUNNA muhsineena ghayra musafiheena wala muttakhithee akhdanin

3351 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA)

6011 And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA) to them

?Ujurahunna? meaning ?their dowers? is consistently and exclusively used in the Quran for what a man gives a woman as a marriage portion in a normal marriage. This textual consistency leave one in no doubt that ?saduqatihina? in verse 45 does not carry the meaning ?their dowers" but means "their inheritance". This is proved when we look at the context from 41 to 413, In this whole first part of chapter 4, Allah is talking about "inheritance".

Peace and regards,

Tanveer

unknownuser

Peace mquran,

Tanveer, my concern is whether polygamy is haraam or not. When I read al-quraan, the word 'halaal' is used opposite to haraam. So if polygamy is not haraam, it is halaal. Whether it's encouraged or discouraged, that's not the issue I'm concerned with at present.

Is polygamy haraam?

Allah does not make polygyny "haraam" in al-qur'aan.

If something is not forbidden in al-qur'aan, it does not automatically make it "halal". There could be a third category of things that Allah does not make "haram" but does not want us to do it. Those things cannot be labelled "halal". Example is alcohol and gambling. Another example "could be" polygyny, which is what I am trying to determine.

Do you think that polygyny is "halaal" according to al-qur'aan ?

According to my understanding of a third category of things that Allah has not forbidden but does not want us to do it, polygyny falls into that category. The verse about alcohol and gambling is also social advice, but that does not make alcohol or gambling "halal".

Imagine a triple marriage event where you're going to marry sisters A, B, and C. A marriage like any other deal is solemnised through a contract with witnesses. So you sign to marry A. As soon as you're about to marry B, the law comes into place. As a believer, you have to follow it. How are you ever going to marry C?

If according to you marrying 3 or more sisters at the same time in a group is still NOT AT THE SAME EXACT TIME thereby making the marriages linear rather than parallel just because they sign the marriage contract one after another then what if THEY ALL SIGN THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT AT THE SAME TIME ?

It is possible. One can have the 3 sisters A,B,C sign the marriage contract at the same exact time. What then ?

unknownuser

Peace warner,

4 24

Yusuf Ali Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.

Transliteration Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).

The Quraan clearly says in above verse "Cannot marry already married women (Nisa_i)"
AND NOT already married men. Why prohibition for only married women, the verse could have easily prohibited for men also.

Allah did not forbid marriage to married men because then there would have been no room for the polygyny allowed to the Prophet. In al-qur'aan wherever Allah prohibits something it is for EVERYONE, and the exceptions to a forbidden thing are also for EVERYONE. According to al-qur'aan Allah allowed polygyny ONLY to the Prophet, so He did not prohibit polygyny.

You misunderstood when I tried to explain about 2 or 3 sisters.

Your argument on 3 sisters is very naive. How can you get married to 3 without getting married to 2. If you are getting married to the third, that means you are already married to 2 which is not allowed in 423. Most simple logic.

If polygamy is not allowed the restriction to marry 2 sisters at the same time is not necessary to be told specifically.

Sorry, did not mean to offend you

You are using faulty logic bro. What if one marries 3 or more sisters in a group at the same exact time, with the 3 or more sisters signing the marriage contract in front of witnesses at the same exact time ? What then ?

Guardian in case of Orphan.
(We can see how strongly Quraan emphasizes about giving orphans in marriage and marrying orphans just like it emphasizes all relationship and treatment of orphans. First part of Sura Nisaa (Chapter 2) is about relationships with women and naturally marriage. The first verse deals with your mother and probably grand mothers and very close female relations and amazingly the Quraan sticking to the importance it places on the orphans, immediately moves to the subject of orphan women in verse 2. Beautiful.)

43 does not talk about giving orphans in marriage or marrying orphans, but it talks about the mothers of those orphans. The "orphans" and the "women" in 43 are not the same entities and combining this with 4127 it is clear that "women" in 43 is referring to the mothers of the orphans. Please go through savage_carrot's post in which she quotes from brother Ayman for an explanantion of this. Also please read sister Samia's post regarding what "yatama al-nisa" means.

2432
And marry such of you as are solitary/single and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they were poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.

2432 deals with men and women who can make a decision on their own. If they chose they can marry even their slaves.

Men can get married to only single women. If women are allowed to get married to already married men, we wonder why, the word "single" in the verse dealing with women marrying whoever they want. Because it is not encouraged for a woman (when she is initiating marriage) to chose a man already married. But if a man already married chooses to marry her then there is no issue. From what I gather it's a way of discouraging single independent women from pursuing already married men.

First of all 2432 does not talk about slaves but servants. "Ibadikum" does not mean your slaves but your servants. Please do not mistranslate verses like that.

2432 addresses the believer men and women. The verse does not talk about who is "initiating" the marriage, that is your own addition. It just says marry the single among you. Marriage is bilateral, both independent paties have to agree to it. When a married man wants to marry a single woman, the single woman is marrying a married man and not "single among you", and that would go against 2432, doesn't matter who initiated it. So according to this verse Allah wants believeing men to marry only the single believing women and believing women to marry only single believing men, doesn't matter who initiates it.

But importantly, the only situation where an independent woman can chose a husband already married is allowed in 3350 with regard to the prophet. (3350 ...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers...)
Although the prophet is already married a believing woman can offer to marry him and this is only for the prophet and not for other believers.

The part of 3350 you are referring to mentions "muminaat" not "muhsinaat". You are mistranslating "muminaat" meaning "believer women" to "independent women". Thus a "dependent" believer woman who is not married (for example ma malakat aymanukum or a believer single woman who is still dependent on her parents or guardian) can also be one of the "muminaat". The polygamous possibilty described in 3350 is only a special privilege for the Prophet and no one else. Other than the Prophet, no other polygamous situation is allowed/encouraged/made possible by Allah in al-qur'aan.

warner

Polyandry is not allowed in the Quraan

Peace m quran

If a woman is married to a man to commit polyandry she has to marry another man while being married. As for the latter( second man) it is prohibited marrying a married woman according to the Quraan. So if the woman marries the second man the woman becomes automatic partner in the prohibited act. Since under this law in the Quraan polyandry becomes automatically impossible , Quraan does not have to specifically mention that.

Peace Tanveer

I am not going to answer to you since you do not seem to get the most
basic things. You build on your own ignorance. Marriage is not signing a contract together.