Abraham
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Abraham (abraham), or Abram (abram).
According to numerous researchers, including Z. Sitchin and J.Maxwell, and quite a few christian reseachers (i sspect sitchin and maxwell for being gnostics, but im not sure). All land at the conclution that Abraham was born near, and lived in UR.
Ur is very likely to be babylon, and the descriptions given for his people in both Al'Quran and the Bible certainly support this thesis. It is suggested that he traveled from UR to Harr?n, that was a trade outpost of UR where he established himself as a ruler. Interresting is that Harran was taken over by islamic rule in 830 AD by the Caliph al-Ma?mun. Given the choice of conversion or death, the Harranians chose to be associated with the sabians, wich is interresting, given the position those have in the Quran. However, the point im making is...If Abraham was an Iraqi (using todays names). What is that house in mecca? Because logic alone should tell you that there is something amiss here.
Peace
Noah -
Peace,
That is why I an a few others have been stating the obvious...
That Jerusalem is the location Abraham setteled in and built the Restricted Temple, while Mecca in Arabia is a place for idols.
Jerusalem is still called and acknowledged accross the Muslim/Arab world as the '1st Qibla'.
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I made a mistake. UR is ofcourse NOT babylon itself. but located in the area of babylonia or babylon akkad(now part of iraq, and not to confuse with the city itself, i often do that, im sorry). UR is located south of the city babylon.
Peace,
That is why I an a few others have been stating the obvious...
That Jerusalem is the location Abraham setteled in and built the Restricted Temple, while Mecca in Arabia is a place for idols.
Jerusalem is still called and acknowledged accross the Muslim/Arab world as the '1st Qibla'.
Do you think Jerusalem could be the real Harr?n? I mean there is still a city with quite a history called Harr?n, but ofcourse i suggest that the schoolars im reading isnt wrong at all, then.
I must admit im still alittle confused with all this focal point stuff. Because i still fail to see the logic in creating a focal point for us. Rather it seems like an unnececery confusion, that you out in the middle of nowhere have to figure out where excactly the focal point are, so we can pray to God who is closer than our jagular vein. Ofcourse there is such a thing as a compass, but it sorta defy the idea of a natural and easy implementible system, doesnt it?
Your thoughts are welcome. I have read the article you have written on this, im going to go over it again. Because i think there might be something here.If you feel that you conclusively can proof that jerusalem is the focal point made by abraham, and i can quote numerous researchers who conlude that Abraham was an iraqi, and the 2 arguments mixed, would make a rather good case against what is going on in mecca.
And ofcourse i still need to get my head aroun d the rabis who now state that Abraham was an invention.
Brhama, vishnu, shiva
osiris, horus, isis
mithra, dacon, diana
father, son, holy spirithey were jews, we gotta have our own truine god, everybody has a triune god, so we have....uhmn.....abraham, isaac and jacob. How do you like that?
I must admit that this really spooks me out. Because if these guys are telling the truth, from their non-official refference work to their scripture, i think someone has a lot of explaining to do. And so far, they havent lied. YHVH is a volcano spirit, manna IS magic mushrooms, and all the wordgames in the world on the latin words and their philosophical meaning does not change this fact. Oh well, that was a sidestep, its incredible where the flow of information takes you, when you start rowing
Peace
TnE -
Given the choice of conversion or death, the Harranians chose to be associated with the sabians, wich is interresting, given the position those have in the Quran.
Harranians (i.e. followers of Yazdanism) are Sabi
ah Mushrikoon, and always have been. They were protected because the Quran did not make a distinction between them and the Sabiah Hunafaso all Sabieen were entitled to pay Jizyah.Salaam
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That Jerusalem is the location Abraham setteled in and built the Restricted Temple, while Mecca in Arabia is a place for idols.
2191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Masjidil Haram, unless they fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
97 How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the Masjidil Haram? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for God doth love the righteous.
928 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Masjidil Haram. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.
These verses talk about some Masjidul Haram (the Qibla of the Muslims) situated at Jerusalem???
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Peace be upon you,
Before these "researchers" decided that Abraham was in Babylon, did they do the research to CONFIRM Abraham? Where is the evidence? These stories are symbolic, not literal.
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Salam Br Kyle,
Are you suposing that Abraham wasn't a real person?
Hmm where have you take that from, and why just Abraham, or are all persons in Quran not real persons?
Are they good examples to show us how to live and act like!?
Peace Maria
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Salaam,
I for one believe that Abraham was real. Wether or not his name is Abraham, I believe there was a prophet who opposed polytheism in Babylon area (Ur??) and his descendants filled the middle east (again wether or not he actually has two sons called Isaac and Ishmael is irrelevant).
I also believe that Muhammad was not a Meccan. I believe since most early muslims were Arabs (I believe Muhammad successfully united the Arabian peninsula during his leadership), there's a need to "own" Muhammad and create a "hometown" in their "idolatry" capital --> Mecca. I believe the same case happened with the Jews and Christians as they said Isaac was the one sacrificed to God instead of Ishmael. They changed the story because Isaac is their ancestors and they need to put him higher than Ishmael.
Peace and Kia ora
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I find it difficult to believe that only one person would think of monotheism as a viable idea. I wouldn't be surprised if many people came up with the idea of monotheism independently.
Salaam Neo,
I'm sure there are more people who came up with the idea of monotheism, but I believe that Abraham was the most remarkable one.. The one that would fit the bible and the quran. Imagine if there are thousands of people with similar story (destroying idols and coming up with monotheism during the Babylon era) in the bible or the quran. They will be too big to read. ;D
Jokes aside, Did you get my point? The bible and/or the quran only include the special ones. The best ones with the best moral story. Obviously Abraham was more special in many ways than other hundred people who came up with monotheism.
Peace and Kia Ora
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You're from New Zealand?
Perhaps you're right - it's impossible to historically verify Abraham due to how old and 'insignificant' he would have been. My own opinions side with Idolfree's because it gives more credibility to the idea of Adam not being a human but the idea of "Adam" a parable/metaphor hybrid.
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Peace be upon you Sweden Majidah,
Are you suposing that Abraham wasn't a real person?
Correct. ) Abraham is ANYONE, past-present-future, who embodies the message that the story of Ibrahim brings.
Hmm where have you take that from, and why just Abraham, or are all persons in Quran not real persons?
All of them. This is not a message of blind faith, it is a symbolic message to teach us about behavior, that we might correct our own behavior. We can NEVER prove the existence of these persons, only can we verify the message by applying it to our everyday experiences.
Are they good examples to show us how to live and act like!?
Yes, the STORIES are good examples, and they would remain that way if the names were Raheem, Chen Wong, or Madonna. )
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Salam Kyle,
Thanks for your explanations.
Funny is that today I watched a documentary on TV about Noah and the Arc, scientists have worked very hard to find out where the arc can be located today and if it was possible to build such a big boat during that time.
Even if they did so big research, they end up with the theory that it might just be a story after all -\
Peace Sis Maria
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Peace Neo,
I like true stories! Tales are for kids
Seriously I have always have doubt on that story but hoped that it turned out to be true.
Peace Maria
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I suppose if the stories were true they'd make life all the more "fantastic" but I think you'd lose a lot of the moral lessons which could be delivered by an otherwise metaphorical story.
Not necessarily. Lessons can be derived in true stories in the same way as one would from fables. )Funny is that today I watched a documentary on TV about Noah and the Arc, scientists have worked very hard to find out where the arc can be located today and if it was possible to build such a big boat during that time. Even if they did so big research, they end up with the theory that it might just be a story after all
Scientists (atleast some of them) are the same people who will try to convince you that there is no god to begin with. So I wouldn't delve too much in what they had to say about God's words.Peace
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peace
i guess those scientists haven't heard of disasters happeing on thiis earth. Are they expecting an arc to survive for that many years. Wishful thinking. Why was it so 'impossible' to build an arc in that time? Do they have the past already figured out? Everything is possible if The God so wills it.
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Peace.
Was Ibraheem actually called "Khaleelullaah" in Al-Qur'aan? Or did this title come from the hadeeths and sunna?
