A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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Peace mquran and Nadya
I am repeating one of my earlier posts. Since I guessed that you would have missed it. Please take a look and add your thoughts . I am seeing a completely different view of the priviledge allowed for only the prophet in 3350
Peace All
If you look at the verses related to marriage and relationship with women you will notice a clear pattern in who initiates the marriage and who is being given in marriage.
- A Guardian/parent initiating marriage (or gives away in marriage)
Guardian in case of Orphan.
(We can see how strongly Quraan emphasizes about giving orphans in marriage and marrying orphans just like it emphasizes all relationship and treatment of orphans. First part of Sura Nisaa (Chapter 2) is about relationships with women and naturally marriage. The first verse deals with your mother and probably grand mothers and very close female relations and amazingly the Quraan sticking to the importance it places on the orphans, immediately moves to the subject of orphan women in verse 2. Beautiful.)Parent giving son or daughter in marriage
Elders/relatives giving the young in the family or in the society/neighborhood in marriage
Master in the case of the slave
Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in the Quraan, mainly in Chapter 4 and 24.
2 A man initiating marriage (This should be older mature independent and maybe already married)
The verses are quite clear. Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in Chapter 2, 4, and 24,33
3 A woman initiating marriage (This is an older mature independent woman)
The verse 2432 is dealing with this.
2432
And marry such of you as are solitary/single and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they were poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.2432 deals with men and women who can make a decision on their own. If they chose they can marry even their slaves.
Men can get married to only single women. If women are allowed to get married to already married men, we wonder why, the word "single" in the verse dealing with women marrying whoever they want. Because it is not encouraged for a woman (when she is initiating marriage) to chose a man already married. But if a man already married chooses to marry her then there is no issue. From what I gather it's a way of discouraging single independent women from pursuing already married men.
But importantly, the only situation where an independent woman can chose a husband already married is allowed in 3350 with regard to the prophet. (3350 ...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers...)
Although the prophet is already married a believing woman can offer to marry him and this is only for the prophet and not for other believers.These are my humble opinion and please add your thoughts.
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Peace warner,
Thanks for reposting, I must've missed it. I wil research this further and post later when I have.
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Peace all
Warner, good point against polyandry.
However, let?s also not forget that 4/24 excludes ma malakat aymanukum from those muhSanat women who are forbidden to be married.
It says illa ma malakat aymanukum!I don?t want to get into interpreting this term here. There have been numerous idead on that posted and voiced on free minds, some on which I agree and some on which i don?t agree.
But in effect I would say that 4/24 shows that there are in practice indeed some muhSanat nisaa who could have multiple husbands when these muhSanat nisaa are part of ma malakat aymanukum!
I am willing to be corrected, though.
regards,
Leyla
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Salam Leyla and all
The problem is when we decided that Muhsanat means married women. What does marriage protect from? (muhsan means protected)
Secondly, in many verses, we find muhsanaat is mentioned where it could mean anything but a married woman (as in verse 25 of ch 4).
Thirdly, this term is often mentioned in opposition to ma malakat aymanukum. On the other hand, ma malakat aymanukum is always mentioned in an alternative to zawj (azwajukum AW "or" ma malakat aymanukum).
Back to this thread why are almuhsanat (in the context of those not to be married),mentioned in a verse exclusive to them? Verse 2432 already mentioned that only singles are to be married.
I believe the move from the verse 423, containing all the (mahrams) to a new verse (424) indicates a shifting between two different groups being addressed . Notice that from verse 25 onward, we are in regulations and laws concerning mainly(ma malakat aymanukum, as in opposition to muhsanat).
Maybe I can tell what muhsanat or ma malakat aymanukum is NOT,however, I need other opinions to say what these two terms stand for.
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Peace Leyla, Samia, Mquran, Warner, all,
However, let?s also not forget that 4/24 excludes ma malakat aymanukum from those muhSanat women who are forbidden to be married.
It says illa ma malakat aymanukum!I don?t want to get into interpreting this term here. There have been numerous idead on that posted and voiced on free minds, some on which I agree and some on which i don?t agree.
But in effect I would say that 4/24 shows that there are in practice indeed some muhSanat nisaa who could have multiple husbands when these muhSanat nisaa are part of ma malakat aymanukum!
I was going to write the same in reply to warners post but edited it out at the last minute.
I agree with you that IF "muhsinaat" means "married women" then the word "illa" or "except" before "ma malakat aymanukum" will mean that the "ma malakat aymanukum" bing mentioned are MARRIED. That will be allowing POLYANDRY in case of the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned.
The word "illa" or "except" before "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 means that those "ma malakat aymanukum" are a subset of "muhsinaat" mentioned in the same verse. So if "muhsinaat" here is translated as married, then the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in this verse are also married. THAT PERMITS POLYANDRY in a limited cases.
I tend to agree with Samia that "muhsinaat" here means "protected women" and not "married women". That will make their subset "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in this verse also protected.
What "protected women" means needs to be researched further.
Brother mquran and warner, IF "muhsinaat" in 424 means married then due to the exception "illa", POLYANDRY IS NOT CATEGORICALLY FORBIDDEN IN ALL CASES BUT ALLOWED IN SOME CASES.
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Peace mquran,
Sorry, the usage of the context makes something not haraam to be halaal.
So then do you think alcohol and gambling is "halaal" according to al-qur'aan ?
They can, but according 2/282 , a contract isn't valid unless both parties and witness signs it thereby making it a single event. So unless you can create a scenario like the movie Multiplicity, that's not going to happen.
The man getting married signs three contracts first with no signatures yet from the 3 sisters. Then the 3 sisters all sign their respective contracts at the same time. Then the 3 witnesses all sign the 3 respective contracts at the same time. No Multiplicity scenario needed. WHAT THEN ?
Can you also please educate brother warner that a signed contract by all parties involved in front of witness is required for marriage ? since he doesn't believe me when I tried to tell him that.
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Peace sister Nadya,
Thank you for the excellent discussion and raising interesting and excellent points.
I will also suggest that you consider the fact that since it is not expressly forbidden, we can't make it haram.
I agree that polygyny is not "haraam" according to al-qur'aan. All I am trying to say is that Allah does not encourage it in view of "marry the single among you" verse. Also I think that "ankihoo" is mistranslated as "marry" instead of "marry off" in 43 and 4127. In my understanding the translation "marry off" makes sense and is the "best" meaning in view of the context especially the "saduqatihinna" context.
Bro, I told you this is not a legitimate argument, conjecturing about things that should have been there according to one's understanding. If it's not there, it's not there. Look to the other verses for direct clues, that is legitimate.
If Allah allowed polygamy then it seems very strange that he did not mention the share of two or more wives in inheritance AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL. If, however, "ankihoo" in 43 is translated as "marry off" then it all fits.
Because people can exchange spouses? One for the other whether they be 3 or 4 spouses? Your X-Y analogy is also not taking into consideration that it can be interpreted as social advice?
Please note that one cannot arrive at a polygamous situation in which one exchanges one of the multiple spouses for another without violating the "marry the single among you" social advice first.
Also you have not addressed the following question
Why did Allah just not say "if you wish to divorce your wife do not take from her a thing" ? Why did He say "if you wish to exchange a spouse in place of a spouse........" ?
No, I think this is really stretching it here. If the husband is upset it has to be for a legtimate reason, God is not trying to soothe the man when he wants to divorce for the heck of it. Thus if there are legitimate reasons they are supposed to work it out between themselves, and the first part of the verse, you can never be fair with the women if you tried is revealing. If a man catches his wife cheating, and he wants to divorce her is that not fair even though he is upset? Does that seem right to you? But no, a man should reconcile with her and keep providing for her even though she is an adultress...how is that even remotely making sense? I can tell you, in that situation she ain't hanging in a void, she's living it up.
I did not mean "adultery" when I said "cheating". The wife could have been just kissing someone or maybe found holding hands or cuddling in a romantic way etc. It could also be any other reason too she might be mistreating/abusing the children for example. What I am trying to say is that I think Allah is trying to tell us that it becomes impossible for a husband to think straight in that situation and to be totally fair when he is so upset with his wife that he is thinking about divorce, and Allah is advising the husband to try to be as fair as he can even in that situation and still keep fulfilling his obligations towards the wife, and try to reconcile and remedy the situation.
Also, the mysterious case of do not marry two sisters at the same time. It well might be discouraged but permissible in some situations?
There would be a contradiction between 423 and 43 if the meaning "marry" is forced upon 43. Logically if 43 talks about "marrying" in groups then one will be able to marry 3 or more sisters in a group at the same time even though Allah is forbidding marrying 2 sisters at the same time.
Bro, I have discussed this quite a lot in the past years and have gone from one understanding to the next and then back again. I will think about this one and get back to you unless someone else does in the meanwhile.
The "saduqatihinna" evidence tips the scales in favor of "ankihoo" meaning "marry off" in 43. Then all the qur'aanic verses about marriage are in total harmony and there is no resulting contradiction anywhere, especially the contradiction between 423 and 43 regarding the sisters. Otherwise there is no getting around the "marry the single among you" and the mysterious absence of the mentioning of two or more wives scenario after carrying out will in inheritance verses, and mentioning "saduqatihinna" instead of "ujurihinna" in context of 43.
Peace and regards
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Peace All and Peace Samia
You mean 244 not 254?
Question 1
Does the Quraan use the words yateema and yateemat for female orphans.
Question 2
Is not a Orphan a person probably young without both parents ?
Question 3
Does Muhsanat have to mean married women? Can it be just good women.
Muhsinin is used as Good Doers/Right doers in the Quraan,5116
Taking that which their Lord giveth them; for lo! aforetime they were doers of good;
A_khizina ma_ a_ta_hum rab buhum in nahum ka_nu_ qabla za_lika muhsinin
16128
For Allah is with those who restrain themselves and those who do good.
Innalla_ha ma'al lazina-ttaqau wal lazina hum muhsinu_n(a).Why can not muhsinat be good women (women who are not proven of adultery /zina, lewdness/Fahisha or any other crime like theft and not belonging to the group ma malakat aymanakum).
Also I thought both words (muhsinin and muhsinat) come from the root H S N which is good~
Question 3
Does not the following verse suggest that the reason prophet got married many times is because he was attracted to their beauty , the same reason most men want to marry more than once.
3352
Yusuf Ali It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this nor to change them for (other) wives even though their beauty attract thee except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens) and Allah doth watch over all things.
Pickthall It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is Watcher over all things.
Question 4
The "change them for other wives " in 3352 and "one wife in place of another" in 420 do these have same meaning. Please help me here since I am not good at Arabic.
Question 5
Doesn't the " thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries" in 3350 below suggest the prophet has already married few times by the time these verse was revealed ?
33 50 O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Enough questions for the day.
Peace Tanveer , I hope did not offend.
Thank Allah for giving the opportunity to communicate with few who are seeking the truth.
Peace All.
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Peace,
Mohsanat also refers to indepent/self-protected women, maybe refering to them being mature enough to protect themselves/make their own decisions...
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Salam Warner
Question 1
You mean 244 not 254?
I mean 254 (And whoever of you who has not the means to marry the believing muhsanaat?) as proof that muhSanaat does ot mean married, because you definitely have no way to marry a married woman.Question2
Is not a Orphan a person probably young without both parents?
That?s what I said. Not a woman at the age of marriage.Question3
Does Muhsanat have to mean married women? Can it be just good women?
I said it DOES NOT mean married women anywhere in the Qur?aan.What is the definition of (good women)?
Muhsinin is used as Good Doers/Right doers in the Quraan,
You mean muhsinin not muhSinin (these are two different words, the difference is the letter s as in salam and S as in Salat)Why can not muhsinat be good women (women who are not proven of adultery /zina, lewdness/Fahisha or any other crime like theft and not belonging to the group ma malakat aymanakum).
Any woman is good, unless proven otherwise by 4 witnesses. Even after being punished, she becomes a good woman until proven otherwise ?again- by four witnesses.
Also I thought both words (muhsinin and muhsinat) come from the root H S N which is goodYes, but we are talking about muhSinin, root (h S n) meaning fortress
5116
Taking that which their Lord giveth them; for lo! aforetime they were doers of good;
A_khizina ma_ a_ta_hum rab buhum in nahum ka_nu_ qabla za_lika muhsinin
(not muhSinin)16128
For Allah is with those who restrain themselves and those who do good.
Innalla_ha ma'al lazina-ttaqau wal lazina hum muhsinu_n(a) (aka).Question 4
Does not the following verse suggest that the reason prophet got married many times is because he was attracted to their beauty , the same reason most men want to marry more than once.
3352
Yusuf Ali It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this nor to change them for (other) wives even though their beauty attract thee except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens) and Allah doth watch over all thingsThe translation of (husn) as beauty is not accurate. You already know that this word from the root (H-S-N) means good, so the translation should be even if you are attracted to their goodness. The Prophet is not that shallow ?minded to be attracted to the appearance and not the essence.
I will leave the other questions to the others.
. Peace All and Peace Samia
Peace -
Peace brother Arnold, all,
Mohsanat also refers to indepent/self-protected women, maybe refering to them being mature enough to protect themselves/make their own decisions...
According to 424 "ma malakat aymanukum" is a subset of "mohsinaat" because of the use of word "illa" or except before "ma malakat aymanukum". "Ma malakat aymanukum" are not independent/self-protected women, therefore "mohsinaat" includes the believing women who are independent/self-protected, and those protected by oath (ma malakat aymanukum), and those protected by marriage (married women). The common denominator is "protected", so "mohsinaat" are protected believing women. Thus ALL BELIEVING WOMEN are "mohsinaat".
Having said that, 424 says that "mohsinaat" are FORBIDDEN for marriage to believing men EXCEPT "ma malakat aymanukum". If "mohsinaat" here is translated as "independent/self-protected women" then it will mean that Allah is forbidding believing men to marry all the independent/self protected women except the "ma malakat aymanukum", which does not make any sense. Hence, in my understanding, "mohsinaat" in 424 does not mean "independent/self-protected women".
On the other hand if one translates "mohsinaat" in 424 as women protected by marriage or "married women" then the word "illa" or except before "ma malakat aymanukum" means that those "ma malakat aymanukum" are also married, and those married "ma malakat aymanukum" are not forbidden for marriage; that will allow polyandry in a limited situation.
Now please consider 6010
6010 O you who believe, if the believing women (mominaat) come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the disbelievers (kuffar). They are no longer lawful for them, nor are the disbelievers lawful for them. And return the dowries that were paid. And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their dowries to them. And do not keep disbelieving wives, and ask back what dowries you paid. And let them ask back what dowries they had paid. Such is God's judgement; He judges between you. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
The blue part in this verse refers to those "mominaat" (believing women) that were already married to the rejecters/kuffar, and emigrated to the believers. I think the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 refers to these "married mominaat" that were already married to the "kuffar" and left their rejecter husbands and emigrated to the believers. Only in their case, the believing men can marry them without them getting a divorce from their rejecter husbands, even though they are already married, provided their dowers are returned to their rejecter husbands.
After thinking about all this, and considering 6010, the only logical conclusion I can come to is that "mohsinaat" in 424 means "believing women protected through marriage" or "married believing women" and all of them are forbidden for marriage to believing men except the "believing women married to rejecter husbands who emigrated to the believers" or "ma malakat aymanukum", without a divorce from their rejecter husbands, provided their dowers are returned to their rejecter husbands.
Peace and regards
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True true, i forgot that verse....
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Peace Samia,
I mean 254 (And whoever of you who has not the means to marry the believing muhsanaat?) as proof that muhSanaat does ot mean married, because you definitely have no way to marry a married woman.
What about 6010 then ? Please see my post to brother arnold above for details.
According to 6010 there is a way to marry married women in the case of the "mominaat" who were already married to "kuffar", and left their rejecter husbands and emigrated to the believers, provided their dowers are returned to their rejecter husbands.
I think "mohsinaat" can have different meanings depending on the context of its usage. It always means "protected believing women" but it can mean "independent/self-protected believing women", or "believing women protected through marriage" or "believing married/unmarried women protected by oath" depending on the context.
By the way, thank you for clarifying the understanding of "yatama al-nisa" as meaning "orphans of the women" rather than "women orphans".
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Thanks Tanveer, that's kind of you.
As for the verse 10 of Ch 60, this is another category of prohibited marriage between kafirs and Mu'mens (based on belief). But I think that the verses of ch 4 are based on a different category, and is addressing the believers (verse19 and onward)
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Reply to Anwaryasin
What is the meaning of (self protected) and ( can protect herself)? a Why would one not be able to marry a self-protected woman? (verse 25 ch4). Should he then go and marry the not-self-protected woman and make her (milk yameen)?
And to all What makes you think that these verses address men only?
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Peace Samia,
If "mohsinaat" in 424 means "protected believers" then according to this verse they are forbidden for other believers to marry except the "ma malakat aymanukum" among the "mohsinaat".
What do you understand is the meaning of "protected" ?
I agree that the "mohsinaat" in 424 can refer to both believing men and believing women. This is evident by the usage of "mohsinaat mominaat" in 425 instead of just "mohsinaat". So in 425 Allah is referring to the protected (mohsinaat) among the believing women (mominaat).
According to this understanding then all believing women are "mominaat" and "mohsinaat" only refers to the protected among them (or among the mumineen).
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Peace Tanveer
Although I translate muhSinat/ muhSiniin as protected women/men, yet this is not the meaning, because in my view, the question is what men and women could -equally - be protected from. In answering this question, we understand the meaning of the term. Otherwise, we keep the lable (prtected).
Look at all the verses where (protected) is used., especially verse 4 ch 24. If we say it means (self-protected or mature) as Arnoldyasin suggests, then it means that it is OK to slander the vulnerable. If it means (good women) as Warner suggests, then this very verse 4 of chapter 24 is what about all women are good unless you present four sound witnesses.
Also think of (azwajukum OR ma malakat aymanukum). Whom would one marry but will not be a (zawj) according to the definition of the word?
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Plygamy is allowed in one condition only (verse 3 ch 4), but if the mother of the orphans was your sister in law, no matter what the case is, you can't marry her.
Apart from the above verse, there is no mention of polygamy, directly or indirectly.
Question2
Is not a Orphan a person probably young without both parents?
That?s what I said. Not a woman at the age of marriage.Peace Samia
Mother of the Orphans, you can not have both, I hope you see the contradictions.
If the orphans is a person without both parents how can there be a "mother of the orphan"?The age of marriage and age of a child are subjective things decided by every society country and different generations. Ayesha was supposed to be 6 or 9 when the prophet married her if the available info is right. With all the love and violence Romeo and Juliet were 12 & 14. Orphan is a person without both parents without having understanding to take care of his wealth or his affairs and some cases he might have a guardian.
That is my understanding, but corrections are welcome.
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Peace All
My questions are for all.
Peace Samia, Thanks for taking the time to answer
Quote Samia
Any woman is good, unless proven otherwise by 4 witnesses. Even after being punished, she becomes a good woman until proven otherwise ?again- by four witnesses.
24 3
Yusuf Ali Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
Pickthall The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers.
According to the above verse even after proving and punishment the label does not go away and punishment continues.
Quote Samia
You mean muhsinin not muhSinin (these are two different words, the difference is the letter s as in salam and S as in Salat)
Thanks for the clarification
Question 1
Is there a difference between ,
- 424 - muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i - protected among the women
And
- 244 - muhsana_ti - good women/chaste women
Also
Can the "protected among the women" mean married women according to the following verse because they are protected by their men.
434
Yusuf Ali Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High Great (above you all).
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Peace,
As for 243, i always doubted the original approach as God refers to forgiveness all the time, so the punishment cannot go on. This is not acceptable by the big picture of the Quran. Also nikaa has more meanings, so here it refers to that a fornicator only will commit with a fornicator, and not with a believer. So a fornicator only mingles(nikaa) with another fornicator, as it is only possible to commit this crime with somebody who is willing to commit the crime. So it refers to that they have similair attitudes to commit this.
Dr.Shabbir agrees with this approach
243 The adulterer couples with none but an adulteress who worships her desire. And with the adulteress none couples but the adulterer who worships his desire. And it is forbidden to the believers. (2426, 4523).
[Fornication and adultery are a form of idol worship for, such people submit to their desires. The word AW here is explanatory. AW = Or + That is + Namely + Call it + In other words. AW appears in this format instead of 'or' in many places in the Qur?an such as 236, 243, 2562. Nikah, in the lexicon, applies to genuine wedlock as well as to sexual relations between a man and a woman outside wedlock, depending on the context. The very common rendering of this verse to the effect that an adulterer is allowed to marry only an adulteress or idolatress, and vice versa, is absolutely erroneous and contrary to the Big Picture of the Qur?an which lays great emphasis on reform and forgiveness. And it defies all sense. Whereas many translators have
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maintained that such men and women will end up marrying their like. This is obviously the result of not bearing in mind the meaning of AW and Nikah, and going against common sense. Finally, the Book of Allah does not downgrade people once they have repented or received penalty. Oh, yet another point! After painting an X-rated scenario of Madinah as if adultery/fornication was going on right and left and coming to public knowledge, in the very life-time of the exalted Prophet, the Imams of the old come up with a horrible joke. They insult Hazrat Ali that he decreed for an adulterer to receive a hundred stripes to fulfill the Command in the Qur'an, and then stoned him to death to fulfill the command of Hadith!