Any examples of 'quran only' states from history.....?
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Peace
A good question; although it's surprising that after studying the Qur'an (or Islam? ???) for 25 years, you wouldn't know already.
The original Muslims were Quran-alone Muslims. The Hadith didn't come in until after around 200 years the death of Muhammad and revelation of the Qur'an.
Peace
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Peace all. Any evidence of this 'golden period',or of the 'quran only' period in history.....?
I dont need to debate this issue,i just want some 'evidence'....
'Bring your evidence if you are truthful'.....says the quran......
Peace all. ps; so,since then,no quran only states...? Thats 1100 years,minimum,of no 'islamic state'....Pretty unbelievable considering gods promise of 'success in the land' for believers... (2455.).????? The followers of hadith have mountains more evidence,'legitimacy',and history than this....
Or,can we 'write off' all history,because it 'refutes',or clashes with our 'ideas' and dogmas...? -
Peace,
Muhammed has created the first Quran only government and was taken over by four people after him, but then it was returned to a monarchy which destroyed the democratic government that the Quran requires to work in. So yes, there has been no Quran only country since 1400 years as people didn't listen to the Quranic message, and allowed monarches to rule them.
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Peace all. Any evidence of this 'golden period',or of the 'quran only' period in history.....?
I dont need to debate this issue,i just want some 'evidence'....
'Bring your evidence if you are truthful'.....says the quran......
Peace all. ps; so,since then,no quran only states...? Thats 1100 years,minimum,of no 'islamic state'....Pretty unbelievable considering gods promise of 'success in the land' for believers... (2455.).Huh??? The followers of hadith have mountains more evidence,'legitimacy',and history than this....
Or,can we 'write off' all history,because it 'refutes',or clashes with our 'ideas' and dogmas...?peace enq,
There is success for the believers, but the believers are always in small(er) numbers. What happened with Muhammad's followers happened with every other prophet's followers. Most of them disappeared.
the biggest problem I see is that those who do not have faith in God believe that they cannot connect with God directly, and thus they need some sort of middleman who can do that for them. That's why every religion has priests and prophets and books. That's why christians have Jesus, muslims have Muhammad, and hindus have all those "Gods." -
EnquirerPeace all. Any evidence of this 'golden period',or of the 'quran only' period in history.....?
I dont need to debate this issue,i just want some 'evidence'....
'Bring your evidence if you are truthful'.....says the quran......Which would make you the most untruthful kind of person there is.
Peace all. ps; so,since then,no quran only states...? Thats 1100 years,minimum,of no 'islamic state'....Pretty unbelievable considering gods promise of 'success in the land' for believers... (2455.).?? The followers of hadith have mountains more evidence,'legitimacy',and history than this....
Really. Mountains more? Why dont you assume their position and we will how legitimate they are. You'll need to do something though, it's called 'discuss'. Can you?
Or,can we 'write off' all history,because it 'refutes',or clashes with our 'ideas' and dogmas...?
Funnily, when it comes to history, you forget your perennial 'subjective' war cry. Why is that?
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Enquirer,
so,since then,no quran only states...? Thats 1100 years,minimum,of no 'islamic state'....Pretty unbelievable considering gods promise of 'success in the land' for believers...
Please clarify, you're in agreement that after the revelation of quran there's was an islamic state right? If I'm mistaken, please correct me. So how has it been 1100 years since God's promise? confused
Secondly, you're asking for historical evidence, meaning written stories like hadith from people who don't follow it?
Thirdly, did God's promise have a time limit/expiry date? (after 1000 years, it doesn't apply anymore?)
Lastly, there is nothing about a "state" in that verse, is that your idea of "success"? )Peace
God promises those among you who believe and do good works, that He will make them successors on Earth, as He made successors of those before them, and He will enable for them their system which He has approved for them, and He will substitute security for them in place of fear, that they serve Me and do not associate anything with Me. And as for those who reject after that, they are the wicked. 2455
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peace,
God promises those among you who believe and do good works, that He will make them successors on Earth, as He made successors of those before them, and He will enable for them their system which He has approved for them, and He will substitute security for them in place of fear, that they serve Me and do not associate anything with Me. And as for those who reject after that, they are the wicked. 2455
since Zenje posted this verse, i reflected upon it to see why it was posted.
first of all, god says that he will make "those who believe and do good works"(substitute this phrase for the term "them" ) successors on earth. come on, think it could be any group of people who is applicable under this circumstance, any group who believes in god alone and do good works. are muslims the only ones in history to qualify? i certainly do not think so...
everybody interprets quran and life differently because they interpret certain concepts of the quran and life from their own perspective... this is where human knowledge, nature and experience come into play. do you not think ?
peace, rifat
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Peace zenje. I stated 1100 years minimun,in response to one of the posters suggesting that the 'quran only' phase lasted 300 years...others suggested this time period was much less in their posts...
I can understand that you dont take hadith as knowledge (although that is not true of all members.) ,but what knowledge would you use to determine history/events outside of the quran....?
The point about the 'promise' is that 1100 years minimum have expired,and since then no 'political' success in the land...?
I appreciate your point that the verse may not mention a 'state' in your opinion,but what then does 'succcessors in the land',mean?
My overall point is,should not 'political' success in some form be achieved from following 'quranic principles'...?
I dont know if there was an 'islamic' state based on quran only after the death of the prophet,the evidence points to a state built on the quran and sunnah...
Do you think there was an 'islamic state' during the time of the prophet receiving the quran?...Do you think practical politics plays a part in the establishment of quranic principles...?
Peace. ps; Excellent post mr humble... bravo -
Salaams Br enquirer,
you said
"My overall point is,should not 'political' success in some form be achieved from following 'quranic principles'...?"
Political success is only acieved by following quranic principles i think people havn't yet realised the extent to which the quran is mistranslated.
The quranic principle are practiced all over the world accept in muslim lands!! believe it.
You can spot them if you have a keen eye.
Salaams.
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Peace zenje. I stated 1100 years minimun,in response to one of the posters suggesting that the 'quran only' phase lasted 300 years...others suggested this time period was much less in their posts...
Funny thing, mr subjective doesn't mind delving into information for which there are thousands of versions. As long as suits his purpose to deride, it's all good.
I can understand that you dont take hadith as knowledge (although that is not true of all members.) ,but what knowledge would you use to determine history/events outside of the quran....?
Guesswork knowledge. Something you should be very familiar with given the 25 years of study you put in.
The point about the 'promise' is that 1100 years minimum have expired,and since then no 'political' success in the land...?
I appreciate your point that the verse may not mention a 'state' in your opinion,but what then does 'succcessors in the land',mean?Do you only read 10 words in a given verse then forget about the rest?
My overall point is,should not 'political' success in some form be achieved from following 'quranic principles'...?
I dont know if there was an 'islamic' state based on quran only after the death of the prophet,the evidence points to a state built on the quran and sunnah...You don't know because you refuse to define what constitutes 'knowledge' to you. As soon as the 'knowledge' becomes apparent, you abandon it for something which suits your sinister purpose.
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Peace br simple. I agree with parts of your analysis... I agree some 'universal principles' may be found in the quran...These same universal principles can be found in other scriptures,and from personal experience too...
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Peace
Peace br simple. I agree with parts of your analysis... I agree some 'universal principles' may be found in the quran...These same universal principles can be found in other scriptures,and from personal experience too...
So do you believe the Qur'an to be from God, or no? Or just parts you like are from God? I'm just asking out of mere confusion and curiosity, nothing else. If you could answer this, I would greatly appreciate it.
Peace.
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I agree some 'universal principles' may be found in the quran...These same universal principles can be found in other scriptures,and from personal experience too...
Certainly, that's the crux of the matter. All universal principles are stemmed from experiences of life/reality. Even the Quran was as such.
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mr.humble,
since Zenje posted this verse, i reflected upon it to see why it was posted.
Actually, enquirer posted it first specifically to ask the original question on this thread.first of all, god says that he will make "those who believe and do good works"(substitute this phrase for the term "them" ) successors on earth. come on, think it could be any group of people who is applicable under this circumstance, any group who believes in god alone and do good works. are muslims the only ones in history to qualify? i certainly do not think so...
That's why I reposted the verse. To really look at what it's talking about. Is it about "muslims"? Is it about a state? Is it really about political gain? I'm glad you caught it out. )
If you haven't yet, read the thread from the beginning to see what it's all about.Enquirer,
I stated 1100 years minimun,in response to one of the posters suggesting that the 'quran only' phase lasted 300 years...others suggested this time period was much less in their posts...
Which brings me back to my question, if you're talking about a "quran only state", and you believe that it existed 10 years, 200 years, 300 years (not the point), then why would you be asking about this "promise" when the "promise" has been fulfiled?My overall point is,should not 'political' success in some form be achieved from following 'quranic principles'...?
Even though it's not the aim, it is a by product. Again, what's 'political' success, and is this what it's talking about?I dont know if there was an 'islamic' state based on quran only after the death of the prophet,the evidence points to a state built on the quran and sunnah...
Which evidence?.. when traditional hadith and corruption did not appear until after 200 years? Not that I follow that history either.Do you think there was an 'islamic state' during the time of the prophet receiving the quran?...
What I think doesn't matter. What happened doesn't matter to me. )Peace
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Peace
Peace br simple. I agree with parts of your analysis... I agree some 'universal principles' may be found in the quran...These same universal principles can be found in other scriptures,and from personal experience too...
So do you believe the Qur'an to be from God, or no? Or just parts you like are from God? I'm just asking out of mere confusion and curiosity, nothing else. If you could answer this, I would greatly appreciate it.
Peace.
? Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then follow the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.
Its not just the quran -when ever people get together and select the best of the counsel offered by people the guidance is from God ,He is working in us (with the attributes) , as He Has said deliberatly above.
So even the MP's in the houses of parliment , Lords or the two two houses of the goverment in USA follow the quranic way or Gods guidance and where ever this takes place for the benefit of people in general.
Simerlarly the other principle of the quran are followed elsewhere.
The principles of the quran are from God , but saying that He has given shown them to all of humanity
and some people are following more of these principle then the muslims themselves so they are actually better guided.But coming back to your Quistion is the quran Godly? - a firm yes-i think.
God Bless.
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Peace all.
Phoenix/kafir ( ).); I agree with some of your your post,but was the success explicitly derived from the quran,or quranic principles,or from peoples experiences and pragmatism?... And,have we discovered no new universal principles since the quran...?
DanishExcellent post,short but incisive.
Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.
Simple; I empathise with some of your views,however do you think there are any more universal principles other than those mentioned in the quran?
Zenje; my point about the promise is that it is unclear whether there ever was a quran only state after the time of the prophet (or even during the prophets time?),so how can the promise have been realised in the past 1400 years? I realise that you have a different criteria for 'success' so the question seems moot anyway...Political success,to me,would mean a society run by accountable leaders on principles of justice,equality,law and order,freedom,peace,and economic prosperity.
Peace all. ps; Are there any more new universal principles to be discovered after the quran...Boy,that might need a new thread... elektro -
Peace all.
Phoenix/kafir ( .); I agree with some of your your post,but was the success explicitly derived from the quran,or quranic principles,or from peoples experiences and pragmatism?... And,have we discovered no new universal principles since the quran...?
DanishExcellent post,short but incisive.
Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.
Simple; I empathise with some of your views,however do you think there are any more universal principles other than those mentioned in the quran?
Peace all. ps; Are there any more new universal principles to be discovered after the quran...Boy,that might need a new thread... elektroYou gotta love it when Teacher gives his comments, don't you?
ZenjeZenje; my point about the promise is that it is unclear whether there ever was a quran only state after the time of the prophet (or even during the prophets time?),so how can the promise have been realised in the past 1400 years?
The point is, when history does in fact prove the 'quranic camp' correct (I can think of many incidents in hadith literature which shows the sole authority of al-quraan), Enquirer rejects it. His hypocrisy and need for agreement forces him to overlook facts which contradict him.
I realise that you have a different criteria for 'success' so the question seems moot anyway...
The point is to determine whether or not there's was a polity by people who accept al-quraan (in principle) as their criterion? How can the question by therefore moot?
Political success,to me,would mean a society run by accountable leaders on principles of justice,equality,law and order,freedom,peace,and economic prosperity.
Accountable? You mean like when they enter into debates, they actually give facts as opposed to doing a runner?
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Peace,
Are there any more new universal principles to be discovered after the quran
I don't understand this? Universal means universally known, meaning basic principles...why and how could there be new ones? That would mean that the people before us were gypped or they knew them and now we don't. A very unlikely possibility. If people kept on making 'new' basic principles how would that compute in the long history of human kind? Unless someone believes that mankind is a giant evolving blob of collective conciousness that always goes one step better collectively? This has no evidence except, like someone brought forth the declarations of the un etc that are ignored by the powers that be at any moment and which also does not mean that mankind through history did not have their own equally useless declarations. Evolution of thought is a personal thing and also there is no blob let alone an evolved blob unless a lot of people get together and either start lynching or changing the world for the better.
