Any examples of 'quran only' states from history.....?
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Simple, I hope you don't mind me interjecting.
SimpleThe quran has only limited enforcement policies, and the level of enforcement prevailing the advanced nation is extra quranic.
And how do you know the 'extra quranic' level of enforcement for 'the advanced nation' belongs to the category of 'universal principle'. What if its not universal but belongs only to the particular nation?
Where is the law to enforce people not to change the will, or rather where is the punishment for this?
Maybe there isn't one and maybe you're trying to project one despite that fact?
There is a voluntary fasting of three days ? and that is voluntary, it?s not forced neither, in the advanced nations the punishment would be a number of days in prison, this stops us chatting and makes us think on our own (like talking fasts) or a fine or punishment differed if the plaintiff is sick or doesn?t have the means.
Is it possible that Allah didn't prescribe a legal punishment at all? Allah says as-siyaam is so that you have be in taqwa. So if you don't siyaam, you won't have the taqwa afforded to you if you did.
Although the principle of enforcement exists in the quran its application is limited in the quran to say killings, adultery, and theft e.t.c
Yes, for all the things affecting OTHER people. If you don't fast, that's not my business but if you go around killing people, then that's no longer your personal space, is it?
Another case looking after the poor is again voluntary but in certain nation its haram to let suffering exist so its voluntary to have the safeguards for looking after the poor ,young , old , sick , unemployed e.t.c
So Allah didn't make it compulsory, i.e. something to be forced but you're making it so?
The quran has rules regulations for the 1400 years ago and some still applicable today but many of these need improving but not all of them.
Please tell us
a. what needs 'improving'.
b. by what measure , what is your yardstick that it will be 'improved'.punishment for changing the will - , where are you based , its in all the advanced countries to my knowledge.
And the laws to prevent people suffering and going naked are good don't you think? to me these laws are from
God .again i don't take my laws as idols i believe they may be changed according to people needs through salaat/counsel.
most of the laws in the quran need to be upgraded as most of them are voluntary , and the advanced nations have shown -it doesn't work as well as enforced laws and that is the reason all countries have started to adopt the enforcement stratagies.
Salaams.
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Peace simple. A magnificent couple of posts... bravo You are the kind of reformer/thinker that islam needs...keep up the good work,dont be put off by awkward questions...
Note how christianity and judaism have gone through their reformation and renaissanse, and came up with the 'successful' systems of 'secular humanism',democracy and,universal human rights combined with economic prosperity...(although i admit there are still issues and problems to be addressed and refined in these systems.) Most muslims in the world want to come to these western democracies to escape poverty and lack of liberty,and bring up families in a relatively 'peaceful' atmosphere with more opportunities...Mquran; parts of your post seem to be encouraging secularism,or the division of personal aspects of religion as against public consequences...
Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation... -
Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation...
Can you quote the problematic verses in a new thread with your conclusions? Thanks.
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Openmind;I dont believe the quran is 100% truth,although i believe it contains some truths.
Well, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?
Peace.
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Simple punishment for changing the will - , where are you based , its in all the advanced countries to my knowledge.
My question was How do you reckon the punishing of a person for changing the will is a UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE?
Just because 'advanced countries' do it?
And the laws to prevent people suffering and going naked are good don't you think? to me these laws are from
God .To me, the only laws from Allah are in al-quraan. In al-quraan, there's an explicit command to fight against zulm or oppression. So by al-quraan, fighting against suffering is a good thing.
again i don't take my laws as idols i believe they may be changed according to people needs through salaat/counsel.
As long as they don't go over al-quraan, sure. Punishing people for not doing as-siyaam is wrong.
Will you kill people who leave Islam? Why or why not?
most of the laws in the quran need to be upgraded as most of them are voluntary , and the advanced nations have shown -it doesn't work as well as enforced laws and that is the reason all countries have started to adopt the enforcement stratagies.
Ah I see. So that's why we have people who pay taxes because they HAVE to rather than from the desire that their money will help the less fortunate. Instead of having a society filled with imaan, we have a society like an animal, forced to follow the whip. I'd rather have a believing society any day.
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Enquirer Mquran; parts of your post seem to be encouraging secularism,or the division of personal aspects of religion as against public consequences...
Enquirer, do me a favour. You know the book you studied for 25 years. Can you read aloud the title for me. Does it say 'q-u-r-a-n' at all ? Sorry to ask but sometimes I wonder what you've been reading. Al-quraan has never been sectarian in its jurisdiction whatsoever. The fact that you think shows a poor quality of research.
As predicted, you respond to me when what I say suits your fancy.
Sc; you are telling me that universal human rights are guaranteed by the quran regardless if those humans are classified as kafirs or mushriks and dirty/destined for hell by the very same book.....? Good luck with that interpretation...
What interpretation? Do you even know the basis of her thinking? The actual ayaat? Imaan gurantees ones fate in the afterlife. In this life, if one is in salaam, everyone is treated equally. The reason you find this so preposterous is just that you've never read it before, simple as that.
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Enquirer Note how christianity and judaism have gone through their reformation and renaissanse, and came up with the 'successful' systems of 'secular humanism',democracy and,universal human rights combined with economic prosperity...(
Wow, so this is how you measure success. By the number of heads which rolled because that's how the modern secular state began Through the French Revolution.
Snap out of your delusions, pal. Slogans doesn't make the world go round.
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OpenMindWell, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?
Its based on the BETS principle.
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Peace mquran. oh,so you believe in history now that you think it works in your favour to discredit modern 'secularism'....How very appropriate... bravo
Your emotions/ideological attatchments are heavily overshadowing your intellect/concept of reality pal...And you trying to discredit a system doesnt mean anything...You think you and your quranic system will stop secularism....Good luck with that... I think i just saw a flying pig... rotflPeace Openmind;I try to ascertain which parts are true by verification (doesnt 1736 say the same thing as that?)....As for god,well you define god,and i will tell you if the quran comes from your definition of who/what god is...
Peace Sc;How ironic,you are asking me to start a thread...? Im flattered....I will start it tommorow....
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Peace Sc;How ironic,you are asking me to start a thread...? Im flattered....I will start it tommorow.... )
Just wondering though, are you going to duck and run again when you can't respond to someone's counterargument?
I'm still waiting on your response to my argument in the "modern technology" thread.
Peace.
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OpenMindWell, that's not what I asked. I asked if you believe it to be all from God? Or none of it? Or some of it? If some of it; out of curiosity, how do you figure? Do you pick and choose which parts you like? Or.. do you actually have evidence?
Its based on the BETS principle.
Mhm. BETS is the key... After all "his guide is his conscience." How can he be wrong? His guide is whatever he likes.
Peace.
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Sc;How ironic,you are asking me to start a thread...? Im flattered....I will start it tommorow....
I have asked you to do a lot of things but the real irony is, you pick and choose. If that's flattery, so be it. Good luck and remember to respond with evidence and detail or please don't start any threads, infact reply to the ones you ducked. Thanks. -
Peace Openmind;I try to ascertain which parts are true by verification (doesnt 1736 say the same thing as that?)....As for god,well you define god,and i will tell you if the quran comes from your definition of who/what god is...
It's okay if you can't give me a straight answer.
I'd love to hear your form of "ascertaining which parts are true by verification." Please, tell me how you do this.
And again, it's ok if you can't give me a straight answer due to your pseudo-philosophy that benefits no one.
Peace.
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Peace cheerleaders. Are you three one poster,mquran too?... rotfl
'Repeat a half-truth enough times and you will convince yourself of its divinity'...
Are you guys trying to convince me,the forum,or yourselves... bravo yay
Take it easy on your emotions guys and gals...
And where is your quran only state?..... confusedPs;brother SIMPLE,excellent post about the realities of governing a modern society....Seems others including mquran,are living unaware of the practicalities of running a state using just quranic slogans and theoretical ideologies... Thank god for enlightened democracy and secularism... yay yay group
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It's fine man, I'm not getting emotional. You make claims, bring no evidence, your claim gets refuted, then you get emotional.
It's rather funny, you still haven't responded to the modern science thread. Heh. Good stuff. Oh well, what's the point when...
Please guys,dont criticise me for not answering questions or diverting the topic,or not giving evidence...
Double standards?
So, so sad.
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Peace cheerleaders. Are you three one poster,mquran too?... rotfl
'Repeat a half-truth enough times and you will convince yourself of its divinity'...
Are you guys trying to convince me,the forum,or yourselves... bravo yay
Take it easy on your emotions guys and gals...
And where is your quran only state?..... confusedPs;brother SIMPLE,excellent post about the realities of governing a modern society....Seems others including mquran,are living unaware of the practicalities of running a state using just quranic slogans and theoretical ideologies... Thank god for enlightened democracy and secularism... yay yay group
And you talk about respect and civility? No need for such condescending language. We're not emotional; we simply would like for there to be a level playing field.
You accuse us of being subjective. You accuse us of not asking "tough questions." You accuse us of not "verifying" things. But the fact of the matter is, you're the one who ducks, who hides, who runs when threads blow up in your face, etc.
You always start out your threads with such condescending language as if to imply that you're above all this, that you're somehow more "enlightened" than the rest of us. How about get off your high horse, come down to our level where us normal peons roam, and respond to some of our arguments. If we're so subjective, so deluded, and so wrong, surely you can easily respond to our arguments.
So again, I ask you. Will you please respond to my counterargument in your "modern technology" thread? I spent time writing it out and I would like to think you have the respect and common decency to properly reply to it, since it was you who ironically started the thread and invited answers to your claims.
Peace.
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God Bless mquran,
for your belief is honest but somewhat misplaced - i think.
To me, the only laws from Allah are in al-quraan. In al-quraan, there's an explicit command to fight against zulm or oppression. So by al-quraan, fighting against suffering is a good thing.
Sorry br. to me honestly all laws are from Allah as long as they have been through a salaat process,i.e counsel of a lot of people having been taken into account.
? Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then follow the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.
Ah I see. So that's why we have people who pay taxes because they HAVE to rather than from the desire that their money will help the less fortunate. Instead of having a society filled with imaan, we have a society like an animal, forced to follow the whip. I'd rather have a believing society any day.
If people are like animals they should be made to carry their own loads instead you or me having to carry it .
They should be made to pay their share of their bills e.t.c whether its by force or otherwise.
I think that?s all for this debate from me.
God Bless you.
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Peace all. Look guys you don't seem to like me using a personal/direct approach with you, so just reflect on your many misplaced/misleading posts/accusations to me... I'm tough enough to take your ad homineum...I don't think you guys are.
'People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'.
Peace, and I hope we can conduct a good civil debate tomorrow. group bravo yay sun
ps; I've answered your technology questions, if you want more clarification then ask. Possibly my answers are not enough to convince you... that's fine we can agree to disagree... group -
Peace all. Look guys you don't seem to like me using a personal/direct approach with you, so just reflect on your many misplaced/misleading posts/accusations to me... I'm tough enough to take your ad homineum...I don't think you guys are.
'People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'.
Peace, and I hope we can conduct a good civil debate tomorrow. group bravo yay sunPot, meet kettle.
Tough enough to take ad hominem? You're the one who constantly brings up respect/civility/politeness, whenever someone is direct with you and doesn't emulate your the-more-emoticons-the-better approach. Like I said in the modern technology thread, you have to grow a thicker skin.
Personally, I like direct approaches. I like going through discussions point-by-point. That is how real discussions should be carried out. Unfortunately, you don't work that way. Far from being "direct," you never really respond to arguments that dont confirm your beliefs. You're quite literally the most indirect poster I've seen on a message board. Whenever someone responds to your claims, and you're left without an argument, you simply run away under the guise of "taking the higher road."
ps; I've answered your technology questions, if you want more clarification then ask. Possibly my answers are not enough to convince you... that's fine we can agree to disagree... group
I'd love to agree to disagree. Problem is, I have nothing to disagree with since you never responded to my two post-thesis. Respond, point-by-point, to my counterargument and then we can come to a more resolved conclusion.
Peace.
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EnquirerPeace mquran. oh,so you believe in history now that you think it works in your favour to discredit modern 'secularism'....How very appropriate...
I quoted history because YOU believe in it. The reason why you're miffed is that you can't have your cake and eat it as well. You believe that in such a superficial version of history that it will bite you from time to time but that's your bed, so you lie in it.
Your emotions/ideological attatchments are heavily overshadowing your intellect/concept of reality pal...And you trying to discredit a system doesnt mean anything...You think you and your quranic system will stop secularism....Good luck with that... I think i just saw a flying pig...
Now you're sounding like Lex Luthor. Grow up please and listen to the group of adults who are trying to tell you You are not conducting a discussion or a debate. Rather you're conducting a whiny, petulant rant claiming 'islam needs reformation !!!' and you gape in surprise when you find out al-quraan gives rights regardless of faith. My god man, you should be ashamed of yourself for such poor quality of research.
Secularism simply substitues the God of the Christians with a new god the anything goes god.