For every single freeminder, All. Salaat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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peace simple,
Firstly, I do not recommend using existing translations wholeheartedly. One should always analyse them to see if they are accurate, THEN insert one's understanding of "salat" (in this case) to see if it fits.
Secondly, NEVER deduce anything that is not SOLID. Always begin with whats solid, THEN fill in the details as one's knowledge increases.
Let see what chapter 107 says first before deducing anything from it. The following is a self-modified translation of existing translations. I have added some notes and clarified using colour to ease understanding.
Araayta allathee yukaththibu bialddeeni
- Have you seen/considered him who is denying in/with the obligation?
"araayta" is in the perfect tense, i.e. an action done/completed.
"yukaththibu" is in the imperfect tense, i.e an action in the process of being done.- It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan.
- And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.
Fawaylun lilmusalleena
4. So woe to the ones who go/turn towards or bondAllatheena hum AAan salatihim sahoona
5. Those whom of their bond are unaware/heedlessAlso see 5111 for "sahoona".
Allatheena hum yuraoona
6. They only want to be seen /show off/ make display.Also see 4142 for "yuraoona".
WayamnaAAoona almaAAoona
7. And withold the far-reaching deeds.See PRL for Miim-Ayn-Nun.
(1077 had several possible translations, I chose what I thought was best)############
Cleaned up a little for readability...
- Have you seen/considered him who is denying in the obligation?
- It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan,
- And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.
- So woe to the ones who go/turn towards,
- But of their bond are unaware/heedless.
- They only want to be seen,
- And withold the far-reaching deeds.
This chapter brings up some interesting points, some of which are mind-blowing
the word "al deen" is used, thus implying it is on about THE deen. (Where is 'al deen' explained?)
the opposite of deny is to acknowledge/accept, thus implies if one were to do these things (e.g. treat the orphan well, encourage the feeding of the poor/needy) this would be akin to acknowledging in the obligation. Interestingly, this directly implies it is about actions, so if you want to be of those who acknowledge in 'al deen', make sure you do these things.
the wording of 1074-5 implies "salat" and its associated words, such as "musalleena" are inherently positive words. Every occurrence of the root of this word (sawd-lam-waw) exhibits this property. This is also supported by the point below.
It directly implies that to be unaware/heedless of one's salat plays a crucial role in denying in al deen.
Thus, if we look at its opposite implication, it implies, if one were to heed or be aware of one's salat/bond, this would help acknowledge in the obligation. How does one acknowledge in al deen? Its already told us! It is do with action, activities etc, such as treating the orphan well, encouraging the feeding of the poor/needy. This provides a beautiful relationship between al-salat and deeds. With this in mind, now read 1187.one can "salat" only wanting to be seen doing so. This shows it involves a physical presence at the very least.
It is also perhaps noteworthy that it seems to qualify the act with something before it, e.g. it doesn't just say doesn't help the orphan but it says mistreats/repels the orphan, it doesn't just say doesn't feed the poor/needy but it says doesn't encourage the feeding of the poor/needy. It may not imply anything, but I tied it in with "almaAAoona" of 1077, i.e. it is not just any/good deeds, it is far-reaching deeds, going beyond the surface. As I'm sure there are those who do things that are mainly for show but not much beyond. I'm sure you have experienced such people.
The chapter is about those who talk the talk, but dont walk the walk. A better way of puting it would be it is about highlighting the difference between knowing the path, and walking the path
Wakas
Background reading an understanding of salat from 'al quran'
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Peace be upon you,
Please elaborate more on the concept of "counsel". I am not following. For example, we are told that our times of privacy are before dawn "salaat" and after dusk "salaat", how do you understand dawn and dusk "counsel"?
Also, how do you understand the following verse in regards to your position.
(223 Guard on the "cousels", the balancing "councel", and maintain to the God devoutly.
Lastly, please dont take on the attitude of calling others "high priests" and such names because that is not part of this system of God, it prevents others from taking time to study your position because if you cant prevent yourself from speaking negatively about people, how can you discipline yourself to be able to recieve Divine Guidance?
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Peace all,
Dear Simple,
I cannot see how your interpolation of sallaa' (counsel) can logically and/or contextually fit in 2441...Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth glorifies God? Even the birds wings outstretched together, each knows salaatahuu (it's salaat) and it's glorification. And God is fully aware of everything they do.
Dear Wakas,
It has been, I guess, about a year or so since I 've read your article on sallaat according to the qur'an. Can you remind if it addressed this particular verse (2441)? If so, I'll go back and read it again. If it doesn't, then I ask how would you personally understand this verse??Salaam,
Damon. -
Salaams Br. Damon,
i think ;
2441 See you not that Allah,he it is whom FOLLOWS whomsoever is in the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings out-spread each one knows its salaat/COUNSEL and its course and Allah is all aware of what they do.
Each soul FOLLOWS Allah by/through counsel and we know our course whether we take it up or not
? Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then FOLLOWS/persues the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.
Only He knows if this is right though!
Salaams.
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peace Damon,
My article does not specifically discuss 2441, however this sign can be encompassed/understood by the understanding taken from the article.
I strongly recommend the following thread in which I specifically discuss 2441, and see the related links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4320.0
If you still wish me to clarify my understanding of 2441, I would be happy to.
Wakas
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Peace be upon you,
Please elaborate more on the concept of "counsel". I am not following. For example, we are told that our times of privacy are before dawn "salaat" and after dusk "salaat", how do you understand dawn and dusk "counsel"?
Also, how do you understand the following verse in regards to your position.
(223 Guard on the "cousels", the balancing "councel", and maintain to the God devoutly.
Lastly, please dont take on the attitude of calling others "high priests" and such names because that is not part of this system of God, it prevents others from taking time to study your position because if you cant prevent yourself from speaking negatively about people, how can you discipline yourself to be able to recieve Divine Guidance?
just a quick reply
Wakathalika jaAAalnakumommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasiwayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wamajaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illalinaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAalaAAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAalaallatheena hada Allahu wama kanaAllahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allahabialnnasi laraoofun raheemun
Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
4.Hafithoo AAalaalssalawati waalssalatialwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
Qala awsatuhum alam aqul lakumlawla tusabbihoona
Said one of them, more just (than the rest) "Did I not say to you, 'Why not glorify (Allah)?'"
"Guard strictly your counsel?s and counsel with justice and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind)."
the ayah you brought up is merely talking about keeping justice in mind when giving counsel.
I don't think its about balancing as the examples above show its all about justice and not being deviouse in any way in our advicing.
how about- "HOLD THE MEETINGS - WITH JUST ADVICE (OR WITH JUSTICE), IN THE SITE OF GOD" or something!
By the way what was that about calling others high priests .......i couldn't understand.
God Bless.
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Salaam Brs. Simple & Wakas,
Simple Wrote
"Salaams Br. Damon,i think ;
2441 See you not that Allah,he it is whom FOLLOWS whomsoever is in the heavens and the earth and the birds with wings out-spread each one knows its salaat/COUNSEL and its course and Allah is all aware of what they do.
Each soul FOLLOWS Allah by/through counsel and we know our course whether we take it up or not
Therefore, congratulate My servants who listen to all views, then FOLLOWS/persues the best. These are the ones guided by God; these are the intelligent ones.
Only He knows if this is right though!
Salaams."
Thank You Simple for your clarification. GOD Willing, I will look into it further.
Wakas Wrote
"peace Damon,My article does not specifically discuss 2441, however this sign can be encompassed/understood by the understanding taken from the article.
I strongly recommend the following thread in which I specifically discuss 2441, and see the related links
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4320.0
If you still wish me to clarify my understanding of 2441, I would be happy to.
Wakas"
Thanx Wakas, I will check out that thread and re-read your article afterwords, GOD Willing. If I have any more questions on it, I'll let you know. Thanx.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace brother Wakas,
Firstly, I do not recommend using existing translations wholeheartedly. One should always analyse them to see if they are accurate, THEN insert one's understanding of "salat" (in this case) to see if it fits.
Secondly, NEVER deduce anything that is not SOLID. Always begin with whats solid, THEN fill in the details as one's knowledge increases.
Let see what chapter 107 says first before deducing anything from it. The following is a self-modified translation of existing translations. I have added some notes and clarified using colour to ease understanding.
Araayta allathee yukaththibu bialddeeni
- Have you seen/considered him who is denying in/with the obligation?
"araayta" is in the perfect tense, i.e. an action done/completed.
"yukaththibu" is in the imperfect tense, i.e an action in the process of being done.- It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan.
- And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.
Fawaylun lilmusalleena
4. So woe to the ones who go/turn towards or bondAllatheena hum AAan salatihim sahoona
5. Those whom of their bond are unaware/heedlessAlso see 5111 for "sahoona".
Allatheena hum yuraoona
6. They only want to be seen /show off/ make display.Also see 4142 for "yuraoona".
WayamnaAAoona almaAAoona
7. And withold the far-reaching deeds.See PRL for Miim-Ayn-Nun.
(1077 had several possible translations, I chose what I thought was best)############
Cleaned up a little for readability...
- Have you seen/considered him who is denying in the obligation?
- It is the one who mistreats/repels the orphan,
- And does not encourage the feeding of the poor/needy.
- So woe to the ones who go/turn towards,
- But of their bond are unaware/heedless.
- They only want to be seen,
- And withold the far-reaching deeds.
This chapter brings up some interesting points, some of which are mind-blowing
the word "al deen" is used, thus implying it is on about THE deen. (Where is 'al deen' explained?)
the opposite of deny is to acknowledge/accept, thus implies if one were to do these things (e.g. treat the orphan well, encourage the feeding of the poor/needy) this would be akin to acknowledging in the obligation. Interestingly, this directly implies it is about actions, so if you want to be of those who acknowledge in 'al deen', make sure you do these things.
the wording of 1074-5 implies "salat" and its associated words, such as "musalleena" are inherently positive words. Every occurrence of the root of this word (sawd-lam-waw) exhibits this property. This is also supported by the point below.
It directly implies that to be unaware/heedless of one's salat plays a crucial role in denying in al deen.
Thus, if we look at its opposite implication, it implies, if one were to heed or be aware of one's salat/bond, this would help acknowledge in the obligation. How does one acknowledge in al deen? Its already told us! It is do with action, activities etc, such as treating the orphan well, encouraging the feeding of the poor/needy. This provides a beautiful relationship between al-salat and deeds. With this in mind, now read 1187.one can "salat" only wanting to be seen doing so. This shows it involves a physical presence at the very least.
It is also perhaps noteworthy that it seems to qualify the act with something before it, e.g. it doesn't just say doesn't help the orphan but it says mistreats/repels the orphan, it doesn't just say doesn't feed the poor/needy but it says doesn't encourage the feeding of the poor/needy. It may not imply anything, but I tied it in with "almaAAoona" of 1077, i.e. it is not just any/good deeds, it is far-reaching deeds, going beyond the surface. As I'm sure there are those who do things that are mainly for show but not much beyond. I'm sure you have experienced such people.
The chapter is about those who talk the talk, but dont walk the walk. A better way of puting it would be it is about highlighting the difference between knowing the path, and walking the path
Wakas
Background reading an understanding of salat from 'al quran'
You make some very interesting observations. Notice that in 438 we are told about those who spend their money only wanting to be seen by people. We are told that they have a "shaytan" (one who is exceeding the limits) linked to them. In 4336-37 we are told that those who withdraw from remembering The God are linked to a "shaytan" (one who is exceeding the limits). Notice that the purpose of "salat" is to remember The God (2014).
I am not sure entirely about all the implications of those observations but I think that one thing is for sure, it is extremely important to spend our money to aid the needy because this is one of the most important parts of our obligation.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace brothers,
Damon,
I know you dont, but please dont think I am being evasive, as I personally find self-discovery mind-blowing thus I would not wish to take that feeling away from someone else. Please come back to me if you have any questions about my view.Ayman,
Well, establishing as-salat is intimately linked with what is in 'al quran', thus perhaps that is why "exceeding the limits" is used. Following 'al quran' / establishing as-salat would be being within the limits. I cant help but think about this with 1959.Wakas
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Peace be upon you,
The "shayteen" are our emotions, and when we fail to "remember" the God, then our emotions lead us to thoughts and actions that most likely will be against God's Law. So salaat therefore has to be a process that helps us to stay at peace. I continue to hold that salat is a means of programming the nafs(subconcious/spirit) with The God's Divine Attributes and purifying it from wrong beliefs. It is a process where by we get into the state of mind between awake and sleep (medi-tation) which is a very receptive state (symbolized by dawn and dusk, when day and night merge)
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peace brother Kyle,
It is a process where by we get into the state of mind between awake and sleep (medi-tation) which is a very receptive state (symbolized by dawn and dusk, when day and night merge)
Have you ran your understanding through the list I suggested to simple?
Wakas
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Peace be upon you Wakas,
Yes, I dont see any error in Principle of what I am saying, just not sure exactly which word I should use to translate salaat, but the principle is a method of programming the Spirit/nafs (subconcious). Do you see any verse that you disagree about? I will try to show all verses with my understanding applied soon.
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peace Kyle,
I specifically questioned
It is a process where by we get into the state of mind between awake and sleep (medi-tation) which is a very receptive state (symbolized by dawn and dusk, when day and night merge)
Not
a method of programming the Spirit/nafs (subconcious).
I do not wish to disrupt the thread. I'm sure you have posted your understanding of "salaat" somewhere on the forum, perhaps we can discuss it there? pm me with the thread. if there isn't, you can begin one.
Wakas
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peace Ayman, all,
I just thought of another observation. If the opposite of denying in the obligation is to accept/acknowledge in the obligation, that would explain why the word sujud/acknowledge is often associated with slw.
Also, lets say if someone went about establishing/maintaining the slw/bond, one should not proclaim it loudly and be arrogant, showing off only wanting to be seen. Perhaps this is why humility/rakee also has a close association. With this in mind, now read 17110 for example.
Wakas
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Salaams all,
just an observation - some people think the ayah 17111 is about reading in a link /bond to be made with the all-mighty , just check the accurrances of QUL when Allah says "say" who is he saying to say to - other humans or to say it back to him. (using Burhans).
Waquli alhamdu lillahi allatheelam yattakhith waladan walam yakun lahu shareekun feealmulki walam yakun lahu waliyyun mina alththulliwakabbirhu takbeeran
Say "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"Salaams.
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Salaams waqas,
i see you are using "bond" - a new word , is this a bond between people or between people and God ?
What are you taking it to be?
Thanks.
