Is your faith just intellectual?
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Im just wondering how many people actually reach this level,and how many people just say this with their theorising,yet dont reflect this 'peace' in reality.....?
This level? I'm not some maharishi, you know. Al-quraan speaks in quite plain terms what to do and nowhere it does tell you to cause harm without a valid reason (defence or expiation of harm to others).
Peace. ps; you must admit the ratio of readers to peaceful people ratio is pretty small,or is this always the fault of the readers...?
I admit one thing. The number of readers is pretty darned small. AQ has been made into a book of hymns. Beautifully sang, but parrot-like. Further, most of the people who do read to understand do so mediated by hadith which adds another layer of obfuscation on the text. I'm not going to defend anyone. If they want to serve their mullas, then their issue. What I'm concerned about is that if someone thinks AQ is harmful, then do bring it forward.
The verse you quoted about labelling disbelievers are misdirected. I already told you, translating a word without rerooting back to the text isn't the way to go about it. To you, a kafir is just a non-sunni or non-qurani. That's not right at all. A kafir is one who conceals the signs of Allah and it will reflect in his behaviour. He's out to cause mischief on earth and to oppress. It's the duty of the believer to fight THIS. Of course now you will yell 'you're reading INTO the text' but am I? If you think so, why not prove it please?
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Peace mquran. you made a BIG assumption. I dont really believe in labelling/generalising into kafir or such like,so how can you say who i believe as kafir or not....?
How can i prove to you anything,when the only criteria you accept is supposedly quran? Bit circular hey...? There are a number of 'quran only' people who do have 'dangerous/unjust/illusional views......If you think this is not correct,then why is this movement so small,powerless,disjointed,dis-united and incoherent.....? Read some of the posts by members on the forum...(you know who they are who totally disagree with your reading of quran,they claim to read quran only as well......) I agree you and a few others make some very good observations on the world,but that doesnt excuse the lack of a coherent vision,and the lack of common morals.....viably you could possibly get about 100 hundred people around the world to agree with your reading of quran,but this either shows the lack of a universal message,elitism/error on your part,or worse.....message being incorrect,or even worse,worshipping of a false god.....
You have a lot to think about mquran.....
Peace. ps;nabi,yes i have previously applied qurans precepts,i personally found them unrealistic,except when i read into the text by myself........then i thought well,if im reading into the text,whats the point of the text......? -
EnquirerPeace mquran. you made a BIG assumption. I dont really believe in labelling/generalising into kafir or such like,so how can you say who i believe as kafir or not....?
I didn't say YOU called anyone kafir. You expressed the following concern
eg a persons interpretation of a verse charges a person with being a dis-believer or mushrik (wrongfully and mistakenly so in reality.) ,that person then divorces or treats the other person as a dis-believer (by which ever sense you want to take that.) mistakenly and wrongfullyI'm responding by saying that if you read al-quraan, instead of have someone read FOR you, you won't come to the above conclusion.
How can i prove to you anything,when the only criteria you accept is supposedly quran? Bit circular hey...?
You can prove to me anything empirical or following the laws of logic, though at present, I guess that's beyond you. And for God's sake, go learn what 'circular logic' means from your buddy Danish. He knows what it means.
There are a number of 'quran only' people who do have 'dangerous/unjust/illusional views......If you think this is not correct,then why is this movement so small,powerless,disjointed,dis-united and incoherent.....?
Being 'quran only' in name is meaningless, God will fry you just the same. What is meaningful is if you apply what is inspired on you. While you're right to ask why the movement is as you label above, I must in turn ask you, does this make your study objective? Because some people cannot agree, the subject of the matter itself is problematic? You're a free-thinking sunni, if there is such a thing D
Read some of the posts by members on the forum...(you know who they are who totally disagree with your reading of quran,they claim to read quran only as well......)
Once again, this is a pathetic way of approaching the subject. You claim to have spent 25 years and another 5 years and god know how many years and you can't stand up for yourself? Come on.
I agree you and a few others make some very good observations on the world,but that doesnt excuse the lack of a coherent vision,and the lack of common morals.....viably you could possibly get about 100 hundred people around the world to agree with your reading of quran,but this either shows the lack of a universal message,elitism/error on your part,or worse.....message being incorrect,or even worse,worshipping of a false god.....
Your criteria is your own. I don't base correctness on numbers. I base correctness on conformity of signs.
You have a lot to think about mquran.....
I always do, that's part of being human.
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JoeCan you provide me with an instance in your life where you found a divine precept was not practical?
After which, can you show us how the impractical reading was made practical by reading into the text? You've asked a valid question but I'd like to see an example.
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There are a number of 'quran only' people who do have 'dangerous/unjust/illusional views......If you think this is not correct,then why is this movement so small,powerless,disjointed,dis-united and incoherent.....?
Wow, this is your argument? Because we are a small group we automatically have dangerous/unjust/illusional views? Eek, enquirer.
So Galileo's theory that the earth was round was dangerous/unjust/illusional? After all, he was a small group.
If you can, please show where a "Qur'an-alone" member said something dangerous/unjust?
This is horrid logic, enquirer. I'm 14 and I can see this. Oh well, I don't know why I'm surprised; your argument to disprove Qur'an's divinity was "why doesn't it have everything about everything ever known to everything?"
Eek.
Read some of the posts by members on the forum...(you know who they are who totally disagree with your reading of quran,they claim to read quran only as well......) I agree you and a few others make some very good observations on the world,but that doesnt excuse the lack of a coherent vision,and the lack of common morals.....
Please show us where we lack "coherent vision" and "common morals."
viably you could possibly get about 100 hundred people around the world to agree with your reading of quran
Please, show us how you came up with this figure.
but this either shows the lack of a universal message,elitism/error on your part,or worse.....message being incorrect,or even worse,worshipping of a false god.....
Again, because we are few, we are wrong? This is your logic? Ouch, man. And you thought it was unethical to debate me because of my age? That's fine, I find it unethical to debate an adult with your logical reasoning.
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I realised that some of these debates are just intellectual decadence,and sometimes lead to ill-feeling and dislike......the opposite of peace....
I agree intellectual debates and discussions have there place in life,but not to the detriment of peace......I realise some people fall into the trap of defending 'theories about peace' rather than defending actual peace in reality.......Myself included....
Increase the peace....... bravopeace
that's the problem w/ debates human beings like to win, a lot of the debates i see the objective is to win not to find the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
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Peace all.
I'm not trying to sound mean here but I really think certain people (I wont name names either) should really learn about fallacies in logic. They're quite simple. They make us all better critical thinkers.
Here's a decent link that outlines some logical fallacies (there are many more, but this is a basic list) along with some examples. I think we'd all do better to learn them, particularly the argumentum ad numerum (appeal to numbers).
http//www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Why%20learn%20fallacies
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Peace Stitch,
I agree with most of what you said in your post, infact encourage it. However, if you don't mind please clarify this part for me;
Now, we can continue this debate with huge posts and quotes over the Quran and hadith, or we can get off our intellectual high horse and start making a difference in the world. There are hungry people starving to death, whilst we post on this forum. There are homeless people living in cardboard boxes (if they're lucky), whilst we post on this forum. There are all kinds of problems the Godless people have created that the truly God-fearing can change, but we are here posting on this forum.
This is no insult to oyu either, but from my point of view, you make it seem like "posting on this forum" impedes the doing of any good deeds. Please do not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong. Are you of the mind that one who regularly posts on this forum (be it to debate, discuss, share in knowledge or even just chat), they are would not have enough good deeds to show to their Lord? You also said something about efforts in posting being equal to the efforst in good deeds. I can only speak for myself, but posting on the forum is effortless, more or less like talking. The only time that I seem to put any effort is when I search for some verses to quote here, which I find educational. Some times, we take what we know for granted, maybe we've read the quran several time over and think we know it all. When a subject comes up for discussion, going back to the reading and being amazed all over again is a feeling, I hope I never get over.Peace be with you
PS this post took me about 8 minutes to out down, in between work.
Salaam Zenje and all that have responded to my post.
My statement was in no way to insult the efforts of the individuals here who write posts to support their beliefs. However, often enough I have come across posts where different views are constantly thrown into battle for the intellectual high ground. This can especially be seen when traditionalist Sunni/Shias come onto the forum with enormous posts of why following the Quran alone is wrong and support their claims with lots of quotes from the Quran and the hadith, and this is often peppered with a condescending and very aggressive tone. Outside of this forum (to which I am fairly new), I have had so many arguments with Sunnis that have made me feel like an 'Apostate' that I now want to finish the debating for the final time and put all that energy I used to in 'talking' into actually 'doing'.
However, please continue to post and air your views as discussion is good. I just don't want to spend any more time of my own trying to defend my faith, for my faith is for God alone to whom I shall return for judgement.
In the next year inshallah, I will endeavour to set-up a project/charity/scheme etc in London where followers of the Quran alone can meet and mobilise ourselves into a group that perform exemplary good deeds and start making a difference to our society and the image if Islam. Should God be with us, then no one can stop us.
Peace,
Stitch
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Peace Stitch,
In the next year inshallah, I will endeavour to set-up a project/charity/scheme etc in London where followers of the Quran alone can meet and mobilise ourselves into a group that perform exemplary good deeds and start making a difference to our society and the image if Islam. Should God be with us, then no one can stop us.
I sincerely wish you all the best in this venture and hope all that you strive for come to fruition.Peace be with you.
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Peace all. I have given a clear cut and real-life example of how the quran was used to be unjust,the forum is peppered with more examples,just read the posts of the more 'colourful' and 'outspoken members to see more......
When you can show me that quran does not legislate for amputations,crucifixtions,whippings,four witnesses for adultery, (illogical and unjust,why 4?) disbelief/hell for trinity christians,certain jews,new age pagans,atheists,agnostics etc,etc then i will say the book is more peaceful than i thought.......
I appreciate that some members have different interpretations,and i respect them and their views......
However i will show how this attribution of 'HELL' to non-muslims causes harm.....This view brands and condemns anyone to hell who does not fall within the ill-defined and arbitrary 'islamic' belief system......Now i appreciate that mquran seems to be saying that it is not beliefs but adherence to certain laws that makes one muslim,i respect that greatly,however on closer inspection,what are these laws mquran is suggesting,is it qurans laws (with the various questionable laws and widely differing interpretations....in other words an incoherent,inconsistent or even 'rigidly interpreted archaic dogmatic' laws.) or some other universal law?
It would be interesting if mquran actually expounded on this,rather than just claiming whatever god legislates is just because god said it,that is circular.....
I tell you what,you guys seem to imply you have many of the answers,........you SHOW me HOW the quran IS just and humane,and how it applies for ALL times,i will look at emperical evidence backed up by quranic verses and cross-references,not idiosyncratic,wild,lone interpretations.........I look forward to any responses........ handshake -
Peace all. I have given a clear cut and real-life example of how the quran was used to be unjust,the forum is peppered with more examples,just read the posts of the more 'colourful' and 'outspoken members to see more......
What did they say exactly? Why do you insist on being so vague all the time? Give a CONCRETE example, please?
When you can show me that quran does not legislate for amputations,crucifixtions,whippings,four witnesses for adultery, (illogical and unjust,why 4?) disbelief/hell for trinity christians,certain jews,new age pagans,atheists,agnostics etc,etc then i will say the book is more peaceful than i thought.......
I can actually show you these thing as a matter of fact, but I really couldn't care less what you think of AQ. What I do care about is, do you have proof?
I appreciate that some members have different interpretations,and i respect them and their views......
You respect no one and nothing except your preconcieved notions. You have never answered anyone directly when it didn't suit your purpose.
However i will show how this attribution of 'HELL' to non-muslims causes harm.....This view brands and condemns anyone to hell who does not fall within the ill-defined and arbitrary 'islamic' belief system......
They are ill-defined for people who PRETEND to read, sure. If you find them ill-defined, BRING IT FORTH. Otherwise it's just you insulting people as usual.
Now i appreciate that mquran seems to be saying that it is not beliefs but adherence to certain laws that makes one muslim,i respect that greatly,however on closer inspection,what are these laws mquran is suggesting,is it qurans laws (with the various questionable laws and widely differing interpretations....in other words an incoherent,inconsistent or even 'rigidly interpreted archaic dogmatic' laws.) or some other universal law?
Al-quraan is tafseelul kitaab, so there's no difference.
It would be interesting if mquran actually expounded on this,rather than just claiming whatever god legislates is just because god said it,that is circular.....
Please show me where I said God legislates because God says so. Do you need to stoop to lies like this? I think Big Brother contestants have more dignity than you.
I tell you what,you guys seem to imply you have many of the answers,........you SHOW me HOW the quran IS just and humane,and how it applies for ALL times,i will look at emperical evidence backed up by quranic verses and cross-references,not idiosyncratic,wild,lone interpretations.........I look forward to any responses........
Another lie. You look forward to nothing except confirmation of your preconcieved notions. You're a dishonest poster who has been thoroughly and soundly disproven time and time again and it's your shamelessness which keeps you ranting your views. Do change please, stop this nonsense.
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Peace mquran. ok,so when i stated that the 'whatever god legislates is just' theory refers to your posts,your saying it doesnt apply to you...? ok,i stand corrected if thats the case....So what is the case.....? You believe in god from the quran,or from reality,or verification,or what?
Part of the reason i dont quote the other posters is that you have a search function and you should KNOW the opinions of posters who justify non-sense in the name of god/quran......
Your so sure about the sunnis views,yet you dont know the views of those on your own forum.......Im not spoon-feeding you......
All you ask is proof hey,what proofs do you give,seriously? self-referring,existential interpretations,then running to mods because you claim someone offended your book.....How intellectually solid....
Listen,chap,your views to me are subjective,and apologetic,and impractical/idiosyncratic......
To be honest you havent even clarified your opinion on one quarter (metaphorical number. .) of the verses i questioned,seemingly because of emotional debating,and defending a book at heavy cost.....Whats the difference between you and a sunni putting the quran on top of a wardrobe,but still being incapable of defending it or applying it without resorting to subjective cheerleading and intellectual gymnastics (hadith or intellectual apologetics.) .......if you are one of the future representatives of 'quran only',then i feel comfortable that your group will achieve little......take a leaf out of kyles book,he knows what he is talking about,not just rants,grunts,moans,soundbitres,cheerleading,sectarian bias and subjectivism disguised as 'universalism'.....
I notice that you didnt actually respond with any verses,and very little empirical evidence.....pot,kettle,black........
I suggest you watch a bit more big brother,take some notes form your mate shabazz and others.....In other words,just talking to get attention.....
Chill out,and take it easy.....Think heavily before you post....I feel you are in a rut and seem to be obsessed with defending your book,which you have patently failed to do.......
Peace all. handshake -
Ok, all trash talk aside now. I will ask you one more time to respond to the question
You have accused me of reading INTO al-quraan. Kindly give ONE example of this.
And also, do look at the 'chap' reference. If you're trying to disguise who you are, you can surely do a better job...
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Peace mquran. Here is just ONE example. You suggest that the prophets are 'archetypes',.....Yes? Show me that the prophets are archetypes rather than referring to 'specific historical people'...? (or are you going to say its refering to both? ) Are you an archetype,and if so,which one....?
If i have misunderstood you,or that is not your postion then i will give you another example....
And,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
Take it easy.......Peace..... handshake -
nd,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......
This 'evidence' has been given in the divinity section time and time again, yet somehow it still rears itself up on other threads...the same old debate. If one can't prove it wrong categorically when such debates start as has been seen in that section and other sections, I must ask people to refrain from bringing this up on other threads. Respond and complete one debate before moving on to the next.
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
I would suggest looking at one's self regarding the 'answering' before accusing others please.
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Peace mquran. Here is just ONE example. You suggest that the prophets are 'archetypes',.....Yes? Show me that the prophets are archetypes rather than referring to 'specific historical people'...? (or are you going to say its refering to both?   Are you an archetype,and if so,which one....?
If i have misunderstood you,or that is not your postion then i will give you another example....Good, FINALLY an example. Well done, my son ! Did you sit under a Lote-Tree contemplating this? Well done.
My response
I believe the stories in al-quraan are BOTH archetypes and figures in history but Allah has told us that their historical reality is unseen (anba'ul ghaib - see 12/101 for example)
12/111 tells us that the stories in al-quraan are 'ibratun lilulil albaab' - archetypes for people of the core and an explanation of everything.
21/10 tells us that in al-quraan is OUR mentioning.
41/53 tells us that signs of God in our nafs will make clear the ultimate truth or al-quraan.
I am not an archetype myself because I am not in the text of al-quraan, am I ?
And,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,
Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......I really have doubts in your literacy, man. Did you learn how to read or do you just pluck sentences out of nowhere, like sunnis do?
I gave you an interpretation regarding al-quraan's legal scope. You ACCUSED me of reading into the text. When I ask for example, you give this archetype stuff which WASN'T EVEN in the discussion. But I have explained it above.
Now, I ask you, show me where in that explanation, I read INTO al-quraan. The proof I read into al-quraan is simple, that is gives another meaning and that my inference contradicts it.
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
Aww, how gracious. But it's ok, I'll keep it at it and make sure we get things clear