Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam?

unknownuser

Peace Al Khidr,

Firstly, in my understanding, "deen" CANNOT be translated as "religion" in al-qur'aan. Please give references from a classical Arabic dictionary if you think otherwise.

Secondly, in my understanding, "5 pillars" CANNOT be used to explain islam even in a "nutshell" as it is a very inaccurate and misleading term and is unsupported by Allah's words.

Thirdly, if you keep using personally insulting remarks and words for me I will have to report you to the moderators. Let this be a kind reminder. Please try to keep the discussion civil and objective and refrain from personal comments and judgments.

Wudu is not in the Qur?aan, however Muslims like yourself who follow Qur?aan alone use the word or term ?wudu? when address aspects of ablution

When did I use the term wudu or support it ?

I follow Allah alone. Al-qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and is sufficient for our guidance but is not the ONLY truth or the ONLY sign. Allah tells us about the signs within and in the universe around us also and encourages us to ponder on all those signs.

But I believe it?s your dogmatic sectarian beliefs which is actually limiting your comprehension along with your dogmatic approach to logic and reasoning is what is causing the problem

We do not follow dogmatic sectarian opinions emanating from people like your self.

Actually your dogmatic views have created a sectarian belief and locked you in an empty void.

Who are you to judge my beliefs and call them sectarian ? Only Allah can judge someone's beliefs. I do not believe in any sects. If I express my understanding based on Allah's words, that becomes sectarian ?

I personally think it?s your ego that you are having difficulties with

you foolishly try to place it on the same level

Since I know the type of psych that I am dealing with

I have no ego problems. I am merely trying to discuss and seek truth based on al-qur'aan. Please refrain from making judgments and personal comments/remarks and calling my statements foolish.

Such narrow thinking and brainwashing stunts your intellectual faculties

But due to your dogmatic views and narrow outlook

It is just your narrow dogmatic views, which is blinding you Tanveer

Tanveer, you must continue on with your narrow view and dogmatic ways

Since when did basing one's views on Allah's words become dogmatic and narrow outlook/view ? If your understanding differs from mine you can present it in a civil and objective manner and give solid arguments to prove it while refraining from personal remarks. Your post would have been complete without the use of any of the above quoted insulting personal remarks and judgements. If you continue with this attitude I will have to say peace and refrain from having any discussion with you in the future.

16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.

2946 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender."

2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."

Regards,

Tanveer

Al_Khidr

Wa Laykum As Salaam Tanveer

You have said this

?Who are you to judge my beliefs and call them sectarian ? Only Allah can judge someone's beliefs. I do not believe in any sects. If I express my understanding based on Allah's words, that becomes sectarian ??

Notice that you said, ?Who are you to judge my beliefs and call them sectarian? Only Allah can judge someone?s belief? I think it?s funny to actually sit back and here you say, I?m judging you. There are various forms of judging. For one I am not using this form of judgment, example I am not calling you nor addressing you as a sinner and at the same time try to make myself look like I am the most holiest person on earth. Tanveer, I am using the same form of judging that you have used on me. Let me repeat this to you again, because I want this point that I am about to illustrate to you to incubate. I am using the same form of judging that you have used on me Tanveer. I posted an article on the Progressive Muslim Forum or Discussion Board entitled, Did Muhammad Bring his own religion called Islaam? On May 7, 2006 at 745pm. I wrote an article exposing some of the teachings that we Muslims (who follow Qur?aan ALONE) hear often from the Orthodox Sunni Muslims and YOU posted a response to my article on May 7, 2006 at 942pm and below is a direct quote from you Tanveer

?Nowhere does Allah mention the term "5 pillars" in al-qur'aan. That is just excess baggage from the sectarian notion of islam and is pure conjecture, unsupported by Allah's words.?

Tanveer, not I, but you said this to me FIRST, ?That is just excess baggage from the sectarian notion of islam and is pure conjecture...?, thus you have associated my using the phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith? and reduced it to EXCESS BAGGAGE/SECTARIAN NOTIONS OF ISLAM/PURE CONJECTURE because sometimes it is a useful tool to explain Islaam in a nutshell as I explained previously. The words that you have used (in regards to myself) associated me in a negative light and diminishing my efforts to sectarian beliefs and more, so Tanveer, how on earth can you sit back there and cry and say that I am talking about, judging you and saying that I call your beliefs sectarian when you did it first?? Tanveer, why THE DOUBLE STANDARDS?? Tanveer why is it ok for you to attack and use language on that level but it?s not right for others?? Tanveer, I bow down to no man but Allah remember that! I was just posting information that we (Muslims who follow Qur?aan ALONE) all share and you took it upon yourself to jump in the ring and throw blows and you couldn?t take like a man when someone like myself jumped right in the ring along with you and threw counter blows. I was not mad at you when you jumped in the ring first, I just issued an equivalent response and you couldn?t handle it due to the fact that you lost composure and became emotional and you charged me for doing the same thing that you have done FIRST. A Muslim is alert, his mental skills are sharp and he approaches matters mathematically with a clear mind and do not self destruct under the metal enslavement of EMOTION. Tanveer, by you exercising DOUBLE STANDARDS like that I cannot respect you because it makes your intentions of suspect. Are you really for the TRUTH. But again, like I have mentioned previously, when one takes a dogmatic approach, they become blinded about their own self-awareness and loose composure and commit err and double standards such as your self Tanveer. This phenomenon is also becoming to a lot of people who can?t handle the atmosphere of DEBATE. Debate, whether on the platform or by the pen is something totally different from a natural dialogue with no controversies. In the atmosphere of DEBATE psychological warfare envelopes and is more intense. It takes a certain type of character, discipline, mental strength, spirituality to manifest within this dimension that DEBATE calls for. I have been using the same form of judging that you have used on me FIRST. I was not the aggressor in this area; I just did not turn the other cheek. It is important for you to note I am not prejudging you and I am not using the type of judging that is common in Christian circles where the so-called Preacher judges every one a sinner and talks about how people are going to hell etc. That is for Allah and that is something that I do not do. Instead, what I have been doing was critically analyzing/dissecting your arguments/reasoning/rationale/etc. that you are providing and (I) am drawing conclusions based on that. Tanveer that form of judging (as you would like to call it), all people have the natural right to do as long as they are not causing physical harm to anybody. This is also related or connected to freedom of speech. With the DOUBLE STANDARDS that I exposed of yourself at the beginning of this article in response to you, it is very clear that you do not have a problem with yourself exercising this form of judgment, especially when you associated myself using the phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith? to EXCESS BAGGAGE/SECTARIAN NOTIONS OF ISLAM/ PURE CONJECTURE.

The difference between you and I Tanveer is that I am not sensitive or emotional. I do not believe in being the aggressor and I will not initiate harm to any body. I am a Muslim (One Who Is Of Peace), but at the same time, I do not believe in turning the other cheek. I have a strong character and I stand firm on TRUTH. But if someone can disprove anything I say or my position, then I will have to humbly submit and accept the TRUTH, but Tanveer this is something that you have failed to do. Tanveer any body is welcome to critique what I say, attack, bring forth arguments, their position, their debate, etc. I am someone who welcomes this. I do not get upset about things of this nature. No one is above reproach; no one is so pure and holy where they cannot be questioned or intellectually challenged but as of right now Tanveer you have failed to bring forth TRUTH/FACTS/LOGICAL REASONING to why a person cannot use the phrase ?5 Pillar Of Faith? to explain Islaam in a nutshell. Depending on the nature of the dialogue, sometimes it does not call for one to address Islaam in explicit details in every single situation. There is NO violation of using the phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith? to explain or address Islaam in a nutshell. Only some one who?s views are narrow and limited and takes a dogmatic approach (such as yourself Tanveer) to issues or subject matters would think that way. Again Tanveer, you would have a good argument with myself if I made a foolish declaration and said the ?5 Pillars Of Faith? is a fully detailed method to explain Islaam in its totality or completeness.? If I would actually take that position, then you would have a good argument and then I can understand your rationale. Tanveer you have said this

?Secondly, in my understanding, "5 pillars" CANNOT be used to explain islam even in a "nutshell" as it is a very inaccurate and misleading term and is unsupported by Allah's words.?

Tanveer, I CHALLENGE you, show me a verse in the Qur?aan that says you cannot use the phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith? to explain Islaam in a nutshell? You talk about solid arguments Tanveer in your last post, well provide my self and those who have been reading this dialogue/debate a verse from the Qur?aan?

Tanveer, you have said this

?Thirdly, if you keep using personally insulting remarks and words for me I will have to report you to the moderators. Let this be a kind reminder. Please try to keep the discussion civil and objective and refrain from personal comments and judgments.?

Aaawww look at the poor baby, he is crying and going to run to the moderator and tell on me to get me banned. Tanveer when I and some of my Muslim brothers and sisters read this we laughed. I do not know why you wasted your breath and frankly Tanveer, I can careless about you running to the moderators and ask them to band me. That is the only thing you have left because you definitely cannot refute what I have been addressing. I can understand if I was sitting over here using curse words and cursing at you but that is not the case. There is one thing that you have to learn in life and that is when you put yourself out there in the public, people will criticize you, attack you, say things that you do not like, etc. It comes with the territory. I have placed myself in the public, I have debated in organized public forums, wrote literature, post information in the matrix (internet) etc. etc. and I have had people come out and say negative things, criticize me, attack, debate, etc. etc., again it comes with the territory. You cannot take it personal. This is something that all strong people throughout history have acquired. Welcome to the real world.

You have said this

?When did I use the term wudu or support it??

Let me back up a little bit, I might I have moved to fast here because, I just automatically assumed that you are a member of the Progressive Muslims and because of that notion, I assumed that you uphold the vast majority of the information that is posted on their site. First let me ask you, are you a member of the Progressive Muslims group or organization? Now let me give you a quick isolated example, to illustrate my point how many Muslims, even the one?s who follow Qur?aan ALONE use the word ?wudu? in some form or fashion to address aspects of ?ablution?. Go to the link below and you will see that the word ?wudu? exist in that article posted by the Progressive Muslims

http//www.free-minds.org/books/evaluate_05.htm

You have said this

?I follow Allah alone. Al-qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and is sufficient for our guidance but is not the ONLY truth or the ONLY sign. Allah tells us about the signs within and in the universe around us also and encourages us to ponder on all those signs.?

Alhamdulillah we are on the same page. I believe that the Qur?aan is the only Book that we need for our Spiritual salvation and also to that Allah signs are throughout the galactic heavens, planet earth, and all the Boundless Universes.

You have said this

?Firstly, in my understanding, "deen" CANNOT be translated as "religion" in al-qur'aan. Please give references from a classical Arabic dictionary if you think otherwise.?

I would be glad to meet your CHALLENGE. Lane Lexicon is a classical Arabic dictionary and the word ?Deen? has been translated by many different words and one of them is ?religion?. You can go to the direct link below and you can read it to verify this for yourself because its there

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000110.pdf

The homepage of that site is below if you want to explore more

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/LLhome.htm

The Arabic word ?Deen? have several different meaning and the classical all the way down to modern dictionaries have also used the English word ?religion? as part of its definition. Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary which is a dictionary that is comprised of both Classical and Modern Arabic and that dictionary also provides the different meanings/definitions the word ?Deen? has and it also uses the English word ?religion? to define ?Deen?. Get a hold of that dictionary and go to page 306, left column around the middle of the page and you will read the following definition

?religion, creed, faith, belief, the Day Of Judgment?

I did more then meet your CHALLENGE, I provided you references all the way from Arabic Fus-haa (Classical Arabic) to Modern Arabic. FACTS ARE FACTS!!!

Now Tanveer in my post on May 8, 2006 at 314pm, I have posed the following question to you

?Let me flip the script for a minute Tanveer. Do you feel or believe that the English word ?GOD?, can take the place of the original Arabic word ?ALLAH? in the Holy Qur?aan? Do you feel that the English word ?GOD? is equal in all respects to the Arabic word ?ALLAH???

And I noticed when you presented your reply on May 9, 2006 at 830am, YOU have SHUFFLED your way out of answer that question. I wonder why? Why didn?t you answer that question? We will all be waiting to see if you will answer that question up above next time you post? I will now close with this phase of my post and dedicate the following verse to you

Qur?aan 3120
Do you not see that Allah has committed in your service everything in the galactic heavens and the planet earth, and has showered you with His blessings-obvious and hidden? Yet, some people argue about Allah without knowledge, without guidance, and without (knowing) the enlightening scripture.

Peace Al Khidr,

Firstly, in my understanding, "deen" CANNOT be translated as "religion" in al-qur'aan. Please give references from a classical Arabic dictionary if you think otherwise.

Secondly, in my understanding, "5 pillars" CANNOT be used to explain islam even in a "nutshell" as it is a very inaccurate and misleading term and is unsupported by Allah's words.

Thirdly, if you keep using personally insulting remarks and words for me I will have to report you to the moderators. Let this be a kind reminder. Please try to keep the discussion civil and objective and refrain from personal comments and judgments.

Wudu is not in the Qur?aan, however Muslims like yourself who follow Qur?aan alone use the word or term ?wudu? when address aspects of ablution

When did I use the term wudu or support it ?

I follow Allah alone. Al-qur'aan is a unique book of guidance and is sufficient for our guidance but is not the ONLY truth or the ONLY sign. Allah tells us about the signs within and in the universe around us also and encourages us to ponder on all those signs.

But I believe it?s your dogmatic sectarian beliefs which is actually limiting your comprehension along with your dogmatic approach to logic and reasoning is what is causing the problem

We do not follow dogmatic sectarian opinions emanating from people like your self.

Actually your dogmatic views have created a sectarian belief and locked you in an empty void.

Who are you to judge my beliefs and call them sectarian ? Only Allah can judge someone's beliefs. I do not believe in any sects. If I express my understanding based on Allah's words, that becomes sectarian ?

I personally think it?s your ego that you are having difficulties with

you foolishly try to place it on the same level

Since I know the type of psych that I am dealing with

I have no ego problems. I am merely trying to discuss and seek truth based on al-qur'aan. Please refrain from making judgments and personal comments/remarks and calling my statements foolish.

Such narrow thinking and brainwashing stunts your intellectual faculties

But due to your dogmatic views and narrow outlook

It is just your narrow dogmatic views, which is blinding you Tanveer

Tanveer, you must continue on with your narrow view and dogmatic ways

Since when did basing one's views on Allah's words become dogmatic and narrow outlook/view ? If your understanding differs from mine you can present it in a civil and objective manner and give solid arguments to prove it while refraining from personal remarks. Your post would have been complete without the use of any of the above quoted insulting personal remarks and judgements. If you continue with this attitude I will have to say peace and refrain from having any discussion with you in the future.

16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.

2946 And do not argue with the people of the Scripture except in the best manner; except for those who are wicked amongst them; and Say "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is the same; to Him we surrender."

2855 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."

Regards,

Tanveer

unknownuser

Peace Al Khidr,

You are losing all credibility here. The sentence "that is excess baggage from sectarian notions of islam and pure conjecture" was directed towards or referring to the phrase "5 pillars", not you personally, but you passed judgment and made personal insulting remarks FIRST. "THAT IS" at the beginning of the sentence CLEARLY shows it was referring to the term "5 pillars". If I had said "YOU HAVE EXCESS BAGGAGE", only then you had a point. So the aggressor was actually you, and I still did not judge you or make insulting remarks against you. You have no defence or point there. I am very cool and calm and not emotional at all. Just presenting the facts. On the contrary, you got all emotional and lost composure when you passed judgment on me and made personal insulting remarks FIRST. Everyone can see that.

I repeat, that "5 pillars" cannot be used even to explain islam in a "nutshell" because it is inaccurate and misleading. Prove what you are saying from al-qur'aan. You made that assertion so the burden of proof is on you. I already gave you many verses from al-qur'aan supporting and proving my position that there is no such thing as "5 pillars" in faith or islam.

Thank you for the references showing "religion" as one of the meanings of "deen". Words can have many different meanings, and to substitute a meaning of a word that is not correct/best according to context would be a mistranslation. According to Lane Lexicon "milla" can also mean "a way". Both of us know that ACCORDING TO CONTEXT "way" would not be the best meaning of "milla" and would classify as a mistranslation. Similarly ACCORDING TO CONTEXT "religion" is not the best meaning of "deen" and would classify as a mistranslation also. Your argument refutes your own point !

NONE OF ANYBODY'S TRANSLATIONS CAN FULLY TAKE THE PLACE OF ALLAH'S WORDS. Does not mean we should not make any attempt to translate Allah's words into another language, to try to understand them. We should try to translate to the best of our abilities realizing that it will never fully take the place of Allah's words. If "religion" can be a translation of "milla", and "system" or "way of life" can be a translation of "deen", in the same way "God" can be translation of "Allah" although I PREFER to use Allah instead of "God" (does not mean I never use the word God).

going to run to the moderator and tell on me to get me banned.

"to get me banned" is your addition, just like your other conjectures. All I said was if you continue this behaviour, I will report you to the moderators. When did I say "to get you banned" ? If you had bothered to look at the rules, you would have seen that NO ONE gets banned on the FIRST reporting of such behaviour on this forum. Speaks volumes about you ascribing things to me which I neither said nor intended, and COULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE. So keep laughing, and others will laugh on your allusion.

I have had people come out and say negative things, criticize me, attack, debate, etc. etc., again it comes with the territory. You cannot take it personal. This is something that all strong people throughout history have acquired. Welcome to the real world.

There is NO justification for this behaviour. You are most welcome to criticize MY UNDERSTANDING or debate it, but you have no right to judge me or make personally insulting, negative remarks, or attack me.

going to run to the moderator and tell on me to get me banned

I just automatically assumed that you are a member of the Progressive Muslims

I assumed that you uphold the vast majority of the information that is posted on their site.

THREE ASSUMPTIONS/CONJECTURES. Thank you for admitting and proving that some of your assertions are based on pure conjecture. Speaks volumes of your methods of debate and seeking truth and knowledge.

Because of your behaviour and repeated assumptions and conjectures about me, this will be my last reply to you, and I will refrain from discussing with you UNLESS you can show that you can present your points in a civil and objective fashion without any assumptions/conjectures/judgments/personally insulting remarks directed towards others.

I dedicate the same verse to you

Qur?aan 3120
Do you not see that Allah has committed in your service everything in the galactic heavens and the planet earth, and has showered you with His blessings-obvious and hidden? Yet, some people argue about Allah without knowledge, without guidance, and without (knowing) the enlightening scripture.

Cheers

Al_Khidr

As Salaamu Alaykum Tanveermd aka The Cry Baby

I have read your recent post and you are one of the biggest shufflers I?ve came across in recent times. Remember when you said this

?Thirdly, if you keep using personally insulting remarks and words for me I will have to report you to the moderators. Let this be a kind reminder. Please try to keep the discussion civil and objective and refrain from personal comments and judgments.?

When you were crying and said that I will report you to the moderators, thus the purpose of reporting someone to the moderators is to get the person banned. What other purpose could their be for you to go run and cry to the moderators in your statement up above, except for to get someone banned form the forum just because you do not like the fact that I call a spade a spade? Because we know the moderators will not come to my house and discipline me like I?m their child, so what other purpose could there be? I will call a spade a spade regardless if you like it or not. This is the same form of SHUFFLE that you are doing when you addressed myself using the 5 Pillars of Faith concept to explain Islaam in a nutshell and reduced it to ?That is just excess baggage from the sectarian notion of islam and is pure conjecture...? And the sad thing is you Tanveer personally do not have any Qur?aanic evidence to justify your dogmatic, sectarian position.

I originally wrote an article addressing some of the foolishness that Sunni Muslims teach and I used the common phrase the 5 Pillars of Faith and to see you take a narrow outlook and dogmatic approach to say that a Muslim is not suppose to use that phrase, even to explain Islaam in a nutshell etc. etc. would think that person has some type of Qur?aanic evidence. It is a sad case to see that you are a Muslim who follow Qur?aan ALONE and you cannot even produce not one single verse from the Qur?aan to prove your sectarian notion? You have been SHUFFLING and avoiding to produce facts from the Qur?aan to support your school of thought. Tanveer, who do you think you are fooling; you and I know that YOU have no evidence in the Qur?aan to support your sectarian belief or opinion or statement pertaining to the 5 Pillars of Faith being used to explain Islaam in a nutshell.

I notice that you have not answered the question if you are a member of the Progressive Muslim group or organization?? I notice that you evade certain things when it?s convenient for you. The Progressive Muslims used the word ?wudu? in the article that I have given you in the link from my previous post, just to give you a quick example to prove or illustrate that Muslims do address Islaam by using words that are not in the Qur?aan. It is to simple minded to suggest that a Muslim is suppose to only use words that are in the Qur?aan to explain Islaam. That right their does not make any sense. Tanveer are you a member of the Progressive Muslims group or organization? We all have freedom of speech and you do not have to answer, but I decided to ask you a second time to see if you would answer.

The Progressive Muslims translate ?Deen? as ?System? and like I told you previously, I understand the methology behind translating the word as such and I have no problems in regards to that. But out of curiosity, I would like to ask you this question Tanveer can you show me in a Classical Arabic Dictionary and a Modern Dictionary where the word ?Deen? can be translated as ?System??

The following are the FACTS that remain from our dialogue/debate

-You have challenged me to produce evidence from a Classical Arabic dictionary to prove that ?Deen? can be translated as ?religion? and I have produced the evidence for you (in my previous post) to illustrate that Lexicons and Dictionaries translate ?Deen? as religion? and more. Just about all of them translate ?Deen? as ?religion?. The FACTS that remain are that you have not proven at all that the word ?religion? is a mistranslation of ?Deen?. The only thing that you have provided was your opinion/statement/belief, which is different from FACT. So as of this point in time to rap things up we have to dismiss your ?opinion/statement/belief? to that of a sectarian belief.

-You have said this

?NONE OF ANYBODY'S TRANSLATIONS CAN FULLY TAKE THE PLACE OF ALLAH'S WORDS. Does not mean we should not make any attempt to translate Allah's words into another language, to try to understand them. We should try to translate to the best of our abilities realizing that it will never fully take the place of Allah's words. If "religion" can be a translation of "milla", and "system" or "way of life" can be a translation of "deen", in the same way "God" can be translation of "Allah" although I PREFER to use Allah instead of "God" (does not mean I never use the word God).?

Alhamdulillah you have said that you prefer to use the word ?Allah? and I to prefer to use the correct and proper name of our Creator ALLAH. I use the English word ?God?. Below is one of my previous quotes from May 8, 2006 at 314pm

?Tanveer you have to be able learn how to speak the language of the people and get them to understand. You always have to keep that in focus, so sometimes you may have to use word(s), phrases, etc. that may not always be the best but the people can relate to it and in this case people definitely can relate and understand the word ?religion?. And from that point you can raise people?s consciousness by systematically exposing them to deeper a understanding. And that is why my rational of using the word religion and I also used the word ?Way Of Life? or ?Prescribed Way Of Life?, again so that the reader will have a deeper understanding of the Arabic word ?Deen? and that is why in my post, I have said

Allah only revealed ONE RELIGION or WAY OF LIFE which is described as DEEN. Deen of Allah (Allah?s prescribed way of life) is Islaam.

But due to your dogmatic views and narrow outlook, you will look at the term ?religion? as a mistranslation of the Arabic word ?Deen?. However, just like I have mentioned previously, ?religion? is man-made, Islaam is actually a Prescribed Way Of Life from Allah Himself. Tanveer the term ?religion? used in the context of Allah is not a mistranslation of the word ?Deen?, sometimes you have to look at the context in which the word is being used. Since the term ?religion? is connected to Allah (in context) then that term itself does not possess a man-made doctrine of religion such as Judaism or Christianity. Now I am not saying that the word ?religion? is the best translation, I am not saying that at all, but its usage is appropriate and can be used, just the same way the Progressive Muslims would rather use the English word ?God? in their translation rather then preserve the original Arabic ALLAH.?

Using the English word ?GOD? can be useful when communicating with others who use the English name ?GOD?. I will help to condition them and insert the word ?Allah? in our dialogue from time to time that I have with people from Christian backgrounds. Now all Muslims know that the English word ?GOD?, which also has pagan greek origins swirled around that name, could not be a replacement for ?Allah?. The English word ?GOD? can and has been tampered with, altered, deluded unlike the name ?Allah?, but its funny how you Tanveer will use the term ?GOD?, which is a carbon copy term of ?Allah?, something that is not original in no shape form or fashion but make a big issue of one translating the Arabic word ?Deen? as religion?. Brother you need to remove your dogmatic myopic or narrow views and wake-up.

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/

-You repeatedly have said that Muslims are not suppose to use the 5 Pillars of Faith to explain Islaam in a nutshell. Below is your own words

?Secondly, in my understanding, "5 pillars" CANNOT be used to explain islam even in a "nutshell" as it is a very inaccurate and misleading term and is unsupported by Allah's words.?

The sad thing is you have attacked my self because I used the 5 Pillars of Faith? to explain Islaam in a nutshell, etc. without providing any evidence or verses from the Qur?aan. I can understand if you can provide a verse that says you cannot explain Islaam in a nutshell but you don?t and you know I know that you don?t. My point about your character is valid. Tanveer if you want to believe that foolishness which you are promoting that?s fine as long as we all know you have no Qur?aanic verses to support your dogmatic narrow and limited view. The FACTS are since you can?t prove using Qur?aan ALONE, we have to dismiss your school of thought as that of an opinion/statement/belief, which is something totally different then FACTS. Every one has opinions/statements/beliefs etc. but as long as we know the difference between that and a FACT. Tanveer your views on this issue that we have been debating stems from a sect or a sectarian belief. I will close from a previous CHALLENGE that I gave you which you could not MEET

?Tanveer, I CHALLENGE you, show me a verse in the Qur?aan that says you cannot use the phrase ?5 Pillars Of Faith? to explain Islaam in a nutshell? You talk about solid arguments Tanveer in your last post, well provide my self and those who have been reading this dialogue/debate a verse from the Qur?aan??

We Muslims (Ones Of Peace) who follows Qur?aan ALONE do not follow dogmatic sectarian views of no one!!

Salaam