Is your faith just intellectual?
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nd,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......
This 'evidence' has been given in the divinity section time and time again, yet somehow it still rears itself up on other threads...the same old debate. If one can't prove it wrong categorically when such debates start as has been seen in that section and other sections, I must ask people to refrain from bringing this up on other threads. Respond and complete one debate before moving on to the next.
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
I would suggest looking at one's self regarding the 'answering' before accusing others please.
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Peace mquran. Here is just ONE example. You suggest that the prophets are 'archetypes',.....Yes? Show me that the prophets are archetypes rather than referring to 'specific historical people'...? (or are you going to say its refering to both?   Are you an archetype,and if so,which one....?
If i have misunderstood you,or that is not your postion then i will give you another example....Good, FINALLY an example. Well done, my son ! Did you sit under a Lote-Tree contemplating this? Well done.
My response
I believe the stories in al-quraan are BOTH archetypes and figures in history but Allah has told us that their historical reality is unseen (anba'ul ghaib - see 12/101 for example)
12/111 tells us that the stories in al-quraan are 'ibratun lilulil albaab' - archetypes for people of the core and an explanation of everything.
21/10 tells us that in al-quraan is OUR mentioning.
41/53 tells us that signs of God in our nafs will make clear the ultimate truth or al-quraan.
I am not an archetype myself because I am not in the text of al-quraan, am I ?
And,by the way,how can you suggest to me that there is no 'reading' into a text by yourself or others.........?,
Do you get infallible divine revelation from god when you interpret the quran?....If you do,show me the evidence of this from verses and empirical evidence......I really have doubts in your literacy, man. Did you learn how to read or do you just pluck sentences out of nowhere, like sunnis do?
I gave you an interpretation regarding al-quraan's legal scope. You ACCUSED me of reading into the text. When I ask for example, you give this archetype stuff which WASN'T EVEN in the discussion. But I have explained it above.
Now, I ask you, show me where in that explanation, I read INTO al-quraan. The proof I read into al-quraan is simple, that is gives another meaning and that my inference contradicts it.
If you refrain from answering i will let you go honourably.....and forgive you for your bombast.......
Aww, how gracious. But it's ok, I'll keep it at it and make sure we get things clear
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SC This 'evidence' has been given in the divinity section time and time again, yet somehow it still rears itself up on other threads...the same old debate. If one can't prove it wrong categorically when such debates start as has been seen in that section and other sections, I must ask people to refrain from bringing this up on other threads. Respond and complete one debate before moving on to the next.
Well, the fact of the matter is, Enquirer is struggling to bring up facts. He's good with slogans - like Lote-Tree was - but when it comes to facts, he hasn't got a clue. I ask him for an example and he deviates from the topic. The topic is simple does AQ guarantee human rights ? I've explained it does and Enquirer was so happy! Then he realised 'wait a second, now i cant defecate on it like i used to!' so he accuses me of reading INTO AQ. When I ask where, he talks about archetypes ?!? Lote-Tree was like this as well. They (!) don't know how to stick to issues. They're here to dump and dump they're doing.
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Peace SC. well,why dont you and others prove it 'right' categorically......?
I noticed in your post to the 'what should i do' thread regarding potential adultery,that you didnt use any verses,nor did the majority of the posters that replied to that 'real-life' example......Did you loose the quranic morality/evidence when it came to real-life.......?
You know,it doesnt even matter that folks cheerlead for this book,because in reality when the problems hit the fan,they follow their own views anyway........
OBJECTIVE.......,yeah right........Who are people trying to kid....?
Oh,and i didnt accuse mquran in my last post of not answering......,i said, 'if' you refrain from answering'.....that a conditional clause,not an accusation.....If thats the way you read my posts,then no wonder you dont understand what im saying,and get all defensive,biased and start throwing around the arbitrary rule-book...
Peace anyway. handshake ps;look at your own behaviour....(612-3,quote that if you want to be consistent... .)
ps;mquran,you stated that in the quran there is our mentioning,and then claim that you are not an archetype because you are not in the text of the quran....which is it,are you mentioned or not........? thats another one of your contradictions/reading into texts,and some of the other are not confronting you on your mistakes for some reason...............?
peace. handshake -
ps;mquran,you stated that in the quran there is our mentioning,and then claim that you are not an archetype because you are not in the text of the quran....which is it,are you mentioned or not........?
Lote-tree, it's very simple and I must say, you're really showing your true (but bland) colours here. Al-quraan mentions my story, whether i'll be a mumin, kafir etc etc. It doesn't concern itself with my relativities, my name, address , email etc. Once again, READ the book please. Stop these childish accusations and bring on some substance.
thats another one of your contradictions/reading into texts,and some of the other are not confronting you on your mistakes for some reason...............?
Am i reading into the text? WHERE ? which verse please? I want you to quote the verse now. Please don't hide away again as you do when proof is sought .
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Peace mquran. You have been caught with your pants down mister...... bravo
Stop trying to wriggle out with allegations,bombast,popularism and non-sense....
The verses you have read into are the ones that you had quoted in your 'archetypes post',which now contradict with your own words and terms.....
Be humble and admit your mistake,otherwise you are admitting quran has contradictions in it...........HOROR of HORRORS..........!!!!!!!
Peace. handshake Take it easy.....Try to handle the truth my friend.... -
As the intellectually-bankrupt Lote-Tree used to do, he would change the subject when answers are made. Enquirer, I am going to remind you of the debate you brought up where you accused me of reading INTO the text
Here is what I wrote. Show me where FROM THE BELOW DISCOURSE I have read INTO al-quraan.
This simply means that I have inferred into AQ what isnt there or what contradicts it. Don't run or change the subject, Enquirer please.
You have an underlying assumption that being a 'muslim' indicates belief in al-quraan and its entailments and being a kafir is antithetical to this. This has come from reading translations and de-rooting words from their contexts. Al-quraan is a cogent, coherent text and must be read as such.
While being in imaan entails being in islaam (3/85) - which goes to say that one cannot have belief as defined by al-quraan without submitting in the way al-quraan defines - the opposite isn't true (49/14 - a famous example of this). Firaun himself recognised this by calling himself 'from al-muslimeen' (10/90) relative to the God of bani israil while it is clear that bani israil themselves had kafireen among them (61/14).
In an islamic mulk/domain, a person who is in submission to the laws is a muslim. So being a muslim is an adjective, not a social, cultural, ethnic or even indicative of one's beliefs but one's actions.. It's the same with kafireen.
So when al-quraan says 'almushrikoon are najsun' (9/2 , its pointing to the behaviour of a people who have transgressed God's laws killing, causing mischief etc.
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The verses you have read into are the ones that you had quoted in your 'archetypes post',which now contradict with your own words and terms.....
Be humble and admit your mistake,otherwise you are admitting quran has contradictions in it...........HOROR of HORRORS..........!!!!!!!Show me how please?
Al-quraan tells us that all human beings have
- wajh - expressions in the world
- manahij - methodologies
- shari'aa - flexible modes
- manasik - norms
but AL-AHKAAM belongs to Allah alone.
My story is explained in the ahkaam of AQ but my expression, methods, modes and norms are different from other human beings. Kindly address this point, Lote-Tree.
So how does it contradict?
I call a moderator to arbitrate here please. Have I not answered his question and has he answered mine.
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Peace mquran. Running and running.......How long before you cry to sister Sc and the mods/admins about people insulting your book?.......Some of you do a great job of insulting your own book with the posts i read.........
Dont worry,i will get to the questions you asked in the earlier part of the thread.....be patient,as is recommended in the quran........Or have i got that interpretation wrong.....?
peace all. handshake ps;i guessed right you would run to a moderator.... -
Peace mquran. Please show me how you come to translate those four arabic words into the terms you do.....?
I feel thats going to be an education and a clarification in itself,and may answer some of your own questions......
Peace all. ps;lote-tree ran rings around you guys,as has danish and others.....you just have little response except subjectivity,name-calling,rhethoric and illogic...... ) -
As I expected, you're just an intellectual coward who's really devoid of substance. Yes I do call the moderators because you've made an accusation. I responded to you in GOOD FAITH because you promised me a substantial response. But you didn't. What you did was, you hid behind slogans. Now i've reposted it for you. If you cannot respond, well there you...that's YOU.\
Peace mquran. Running and running.......How long before you cry to sister Sc and the mods/admins about people insulting your book?.......Some of you do a great job of insulting your own book with the posts i read.........
That's the rule. You make a comment, you back it up or shut up. If you don't like the rules, go to dimwitforums.com. You can say what you like there.
Dont worry,i will get to the questions you asked in the earlier part of the thread.....be patient,as is recommended in the quran........Or have i got that interpretation wrong.....?
Oh sorry, you need to go shopping first don't you? Disappear for a week and pretend as if you never said it. Right, right, I forgot your tactic sorry.
ps;i guessed right you would run to a moderator....
Wow, you must a prophet yourself then?
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Peace mquran. You have been caught with your pants down mister...... bravo
Stop trying to wriggle out with allegations,bombast,popularism and non-sense....
The verses you have read into are the ones that you had quoted in your 'archetypes post',which now contradict with your own words and terms.....
Be humble and admit your mistake,otherwise you are admitting quran has contradictions in it...........HOROR of HORRORS..........!!!!!!!
Peace. handshake Take it easy.....Try to handle the truth my friend....Bravo, I just realized that. What a hoot. Now just see how his pants fall apart on another thread which I have asked him to explain and he seems to dodge that one too. I'll bet you 'enquirer', that this 'prophet of doom' which we have on our hands will not go pass my very first concern in a moderated debate for he will be scratching his head and running up and down. All he has left with him is a BIG MOUTH.
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Peace mquran. Please show me how you come to translate those four arabic words into the terms you do.....?
Sure, when you tell me where in that long post I read into al-quraan, i'd be quite happy to do that. The onus is on you now. Go do your shopping first.
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Peace danish. I realise now the subversive tactics and diversions.....My god,is this quranic morality........? I would like quran only folks of this methodology to explain the verses on debating in the best way,kind words,saying straightforward words,not mocking,not slandering without evidence etc,etc.....seems these verse are disregarded,or re-interpreted.......My god,such fun in spinning new meanings........ bravo
peace all. mquran;isnt the onus is on you theory from greek philosphy and logic?......Does your view have any quranic merit or evidence.....? Take your time in answering...... handshake -
Peace mquran. Be patient,the quran reccomends this.........
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Peace
you SHOW me HOW the quran IS just and humane
You have an idea of what is humane that is different from mine. For example, you feel that all people should be allowed into heaven, that there should be no heaven and hell if God is a just god. To me this is unfair, you would have one have a get in free pass where another has deserved a certain position due to what s/he has been doing.
I think your challenge is not worth it. You have your idea and want people to prove to you that the quran agrees with this idea of your's. I for one will not try to prove to you that the quran is in line with your idea of humanism and I do not think the quran to be archaic because it is not in line with your reasoning of that which is humane.
I say it here and now, in my opinion, the quran does not meet your standards of humanism and I am not ashamed that it does not.
Joe
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Peace danish. I realise now the subversive tactics and diversions.....My god,is this quranic morality........? I would like quran only folks of this methodology to explain the verses on debating in the best way,kind words,saying straightforward words,not mocking,not slandering without evidence etc,etc.....seems these verse are disregarded,or re-interpreted.......My god,such fun in spinning new meanings........ bravo
The problem is that each time any sincere person wants to discuss matters relating to Quran, whether it be verses, divinity, historicity, internal or external relevancy, stories within, etc., someone just pops in with deviations and personal attacks which follows suit by others, thus the entire platform gets dislodged and poisoned. Mquran is on top of the list. There must be a ?real time? solution to end this huge problem. But then, of course, mquran will be the first person to embark on banning members who don?t believe in Quranic divinity, not knowing himself that the core belief in Quran being Allah?s Words is far from over. A book is written by no other than MAN himself (or MEN themselves) and a man is fallible, which explains the Quran. Besides, there's a section specifically designed for questioning Quranic divinity bought about by the very members here which mquran doesn't understand.
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The problem is that each time any sincere person wants to discuss matters relating to Quran, whether it be verses, divinity, historicity, internal or external relevancy, stories within, etc., someone just pops in with deviations and personal attacks which follows suit by others, thus the entire platform gets dislodged and poisoned.
SINCERE person? Who ? YOU? You're the most insincere guy in this forum! A dishonest person whose only way of alleviating his complex is by proving himself to be beyond what was himself.
Care to tell us why you believed in AQ before but not now? I bet you can't.
The moderator's word is you bring information, you defend it. YOUR rule was, if you say something, you CLARIFY it. But you can't. The real deviation - from the human mold, that is- is the guy posting dung-filled poems and claiming they're a challenge to AQ.
Mquran is on top of the list. There must be a ?real time? solution to end this huge problem. But then, of course, mquran will be the first person to embark on banning members who don?t believe in Quranic divinity, not knowing himself that the core belief in Quran being Allah?s Words is far from over.
Banned? I'd rather you and Enquirer/Lote-Tree be made to debate your accusations. I do wish some sincere free-thinkers would come in though, that'd be good for sheer mental stimulation. You should contact freethoughtmecca, now HE'S good. Really put me through my paces some years ago.
A book is written by no other than MAN himself (or MEN themselves) and a man is fallible, which explains the Quran.
Fallibility doesn't indicate fallaciousness. If I am prone to error, does that mean I can't score 100% in an exam. If the above is your LOGIC, God help us when you give your 'silly' opinions.
Besides, there's a section specifically designed for questioning Quranic divinity bought about by the very members here which mquran doesn't understand.
Questioning - as rule 2 indicates - means standing up for ones questions, not avoiding to define what's one's statements were or in enquirer's case, direct avoidance. You guys are defecating all over AQ, not questioning it. You're here to relieve yourselves by proving to yourselves that we believers in AQ are standing on delusions. If that were really the case, you'd have been able to smash our discourse to pieces but as it stands, the dung-filled sura's your best effort and that's saying A LOT.