I believe this is a cult

Roshan

this is a brief description of the change-

a lot of bitterness against sunnis
treating sunnis like they are less than human (calls them superficially nice, simple people but nasty to the core)
advocating and actively promoting what layth says in his articles (eg. hajj article)
advocating that sunnis are idol worshippers
sunnis cannot be included in the brotherhood of Islam
cutting off all relations with sunnis, even if they are siblings or immediate family members

Peace Andfutuna

I understand what you have said about the cult. I think what you meant is that you feel that people blindly follow the articles that are on the website. This is really only a question that individual members can answer. However, I feel that looking at the variety of postings here you will come to realise that this is not the case.

I myself was worried that I was too influenced by these articles and blindly following them, so I did my own study for a bit, and I have realised that you need the help of others, at least intially anyway.

As for your points, of course we are only hearing one side anyway. As for 1) Isn't this understandable - especially if they have just embraced Islam and were previously Sunni?

Point 2) is obviously an overstatement but I must admit that I have never met a Sunni who treated me the same after I left their religion. Their intolerance is the most striking feature and the lack of desire to have a genuine dialogue (of course related to the intolerance). I also find the ardent Sunnis are able to comprehend simple issues, but beyond this (e.g. freedom of religion) their morality really does fall down. This is no coincidence in a religion which preaches that the key to salvation lies in mindless rituals. No matter how intelligent an ardent Sunni is, on religious/moral issues they are all extremely backward (from my experience). The low point of this was attending a 'Friday prayer' at a University and being told that there was no conflict of interest between killing an apostate and freedom of religion. This is because the person is, apparently free to make the decision and then he is killed!

Point 3) - this person has to make sure that he is not following humans as a source of law, much like those that follow 'Rashad Khilafah' (www.submission,org).

Should we take only God as a source of law?
Is the Quran from God?
Are the 'hadith' from God?
See point 4
See 328 and I am sure there are lots of other examples of similar quotes.

Of course, all of the above is my opinion.

Roshan

Roshan

advocating that sunnis are idol worshippers

Again mistaken that every person is an individual and that only God can judge. Shirk is a wide wide subject, not just based on things like following hadith next to the Quran, he should be more carefull in his judgement.

sunnis cannot be included in the brotherhood of Islam

Again Islam is a wide wide subject. Thus again his ideas on Islam is from a narrow view.

cutting off all relations with sunnis, even if they are siblings or immediate family members.

This is ignorant. What i see in your friend is a lot of anger against his old self, and blaming this on others. Also he 'protects' himself by cutting of relationships or be bitter, which shows his weak knowledge and faith. He forgets that the Quran says to always say peace and to be good to everyone. I hope he will learn in time and finds his balance back. He generalizes to much.

I also disagree with most ideas in sunnism, but i talk with them about it in a friendly matter, as the Quran demands. Look at the story of the Pharoah, were Moses is ordered to stay nice with the Pharoah. This is the real attitude described in the Quran. Your friend is now in a phase that he has to find himself again, and to widen his knowledge. Anger is always based on fear. So his actions are based on his fear of sunnis. I myself have no problem with them, but i understand his feelings. Give him time. I teach sunnis islamic history in the local mosque. I follow the Quran alone, but i focus on the things in common, so we can build bridges. I do the same with christians and jews and hindus and so on.

Peace

Peace Arnoldyasin

Point 4 + 5 Bearing in mind the numerous quotations about shall I seek other than God as a source of law when he has sent this book to you in detail etc. how can you not believe that the Sunni religion involves worshipping idols. Those idols being Bukhari, Muslim, those who invented the sayings and maybe even Muhammad. Of course we have to judge what is right and wrong, because we will be judged ourselves on the day of judgement. Hasn't God given us the ears and the eyes to evaluate for ourselves exactly what he wants? Doesn't this, therefore, involve judging?

Point 6 What do you make of 328 and the numerous other verses that say much the same? As for the story of Moses - are you sure? Wasn't this more a question of biding one's time rather than taking those who associate with God as protectors/guardians.

Roshan

arnoldyasin

Peace,

As i said, shirk is a wide wide subject. Of course i know the verses. But you cannot judge a group, only individuals, that is what i said.

As for 328, you take it out of context, it says don't take rejectors as friends INSTEAD of believers, it doesn't say that you cannot befriend rejectors at all. It only warns that you cannot prefer rejectors over believers. We can befriend those who don't fight us over our religion and are not tyrants.

608 Allah does not forbid you from being kind, and fully equitable to those
who do not fight you on account of Religion, and do not evict you from your
homelands. Behold, Allah loves those who lead a just, balanced life.
609 Allah only forbids you from befriending only those who fight you on
account of Religion and evict you from your homelands, or help others in
evicting you. Whoever befriends them, it is they, they who will be wrongdoers.

Peace

unknownuser

peace all
Come on brothers, we all dislike sunnis and other sects cose they follow blind faith and they have extrem thoughts,
so why r u doing the same?? after all they r still muslims, they know what the coran says, and for them, the hadiths
r not above the coran, but they do follow it. After all, the coran urges the muslims to obey the teaching the messenger.
So plz stop this shirk & kafeer calls for any muslim, if they say that to others sects, we shall not.
And i don't think verse 328 apply to them, they r not rejectors, the coran is their book, they believe in the only GOD,
and there r believers among them. And of course this goes for all other sects.
Saying "There is no god but ALLAH" is enough, and the rest will be judged by GOD.
salam

unknownuser

peace

6159 Those who have divided their system and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their matter will be with God, then He will inform them of what they had done.

Now we aren't to ridicule them, we are not to ridicule/mock anyone. But we are certainly not to take them as friends either.

you really think they believe Hadith are not above the Quran? Sure they may say that. So tell me what's obligatory in the sunni religion? Whatever God tells you to right? and what's SUPERIOR, doing whatever Muhammad did correct? Extra credit right? Where do they get almost all of their laws The hadith. Everything in the Quran is SUPERSEDED by the hadith. Okay let's say obeying the hadith is obeying the messenger. Then why dont they obey the hadith of Moses and Jesus. They are not messengers? Oh right, the people who wrote their hadith didn't have muslim names, so they are not trustworthy. Bottomline God calls the Quran Complete, Full-Detailed and Perfect. Now what does that mean?

When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD." GOD knows that you are His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are liars.

Who bears witness to such?

Peace

P.S. I hope you didn't misunderstood me as being 'aggressive'. I am simply displaying the truth from the Quran. Also, Obeying the teachings of messengers refer to ALIVE messengers

Such is GOD, your rightful Lord. What is there after the truth, except falsehood? How could you disregard all this?

Here you are arguing on their behalf in this world; who is going to argue with GOD on their behalf on the Day of Resurrection? Who is going to be their advocate?

God bless

unknownuser

peace ik
Don't worry bro, i didn't find it that aggressive for me but any sunni will.
Bro following the messenger is an order, it's mentioned in one ayah that i forgot the number.
This is not the issue, it's about uncertain ahadiths, and the fact that the prophet left only one thing
which is the coran, Ahadiths were gathered and written by men. Yes, i say they shouldn't follow these ahadiths,
but not as some say, not to follow the prophet. All what the prophet says shall be obeyed.
If u ever be sure of one "hadith" of jesus and moses, u shall obey, they r called messengers bro = deliver the message
of GOD, do u think they will order the people to do anything against GOD's will.
But of course, u won't find a certain one, as in islam. So after all, coran is our reference.
And the main point was not to start with the "takfir" thing,

When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD."

i think u can't use this one for today's muslims, i think it's about those who entered islam at the time of the prophet
without faith only to save their lives. it's clear when it says "..come to you..".

unknownuser

peace salam

" i think u can't use this one for today's muslims, i think it's about those who entered islam at the time of the prophet
without faith only to save their lives. it's clear when it says "..come to you..". "

But you missed the VERY important last part of the verse. "God knows that you are his messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars." Another words, if you are saying that in your prayers, aren't you telling God what he knows already? I just don't see the point. The problem is not with the messengers bro, the problem is w/ the people who delivered their messages. You are right messengers are to be obeyed unquestioned since they only deliver revelations from God. The bible is Jesus' hadith, and Moses' hadith exists in the exact same form as Muhammad, I am just saying okay if you believe in hadith of Muhammad, you must also OBEY both Moses' and Jesus' hadith as well, otherwise that's very contradictory. And you are only picking and choosing what you want (not speaking to any person, but generally). I just believe that God wouldn't leave it up to such guesswork.

Following the messenger is not an order. I believe you are thnking of this verse. It's more of great advice

3321 Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example has been set for you for he who seeks God and the Last Day and thinks constantly about God.

But you are forgetting this verse as well

604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in God alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from God." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

Now where is Abraham mentioned a lot in Where is his example? In the Quran. Where is Muhammad's? In the Quran, without any contradiction. With no guesswork involved.

6112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

phoenix1

peace all

For God's sake stop posting in this thread. Andfutuna, whoever he/she was, will (very) probably never post again.
we're talking to ourselves.
peace

PS. if people are discussing other issues, create a new topic.

unknownuser

peace phoenix and ik
Maybe Andfutuna won't post again but maybe he/she is reading this, so i say we let this discussion
in this thread so he/she can understand who r GOD Aloners

But you missed the VERY important last part of the verse. "God knows that you are his messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are liars."

no i didn't miss it ik, who decides who r the hypocrites brother? even the prophet couldn't know who r the true believers
and the misbelievers, only GOD know what's in minds. GOD bears witness they r hypocrites, we can't and won't.

Another words, if you are saying that in your prayers, aren't you telling God what he knows already? I just don't see the point.

brother GOD know too that's he's the only god, will u then stop saying i believe there's no god but ALLAH ??
i believe the verse doesn't talk about all those who say the shahadah, it's about the hypocrites among them who doesn't
really believe and there's a huge difference.

you must also OBEY both Moses' and Jesus' hadith as well, otherwise that's very contradictory.

if u notice what i said, we agree here and it's clear in the coran that we must recognise all prophets and follow them,
but as i said it's not possible to follow their teaching literally cose we don't have a certain one.
That's the purpose of the coran, to be there intact while other manuscripts and teachings could have been changed
by men.

salam

unknownuser

peace phoenix1

haha you are right. Can you get the mods/administrators to delete our threads? (i am not being sarcastic)

Peace salam

Well your view is your view, mine is mine. I don't think we should discuss this any longer

take care

God bless