questions on muhammad, sufism, etc.
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Peace folks,
arnold
This is a personal observation, which has nothing to do with the subject. And till know you haven't shown any good approach to this debate. No arguments from the Quran, only personal comments and personal view on what Islam is based on upbringing. You have a lot to learn....
Most of people are here to learn and so am I, but I cant believe you at 1go until I verify whatever doubts I have about any subject.
As far as shahaha is concerned, AB, Layth both agree to yr defination, so do I. But certainly I have the right to question and I will keep doing so in order to understand the truth.
Ta da!
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We all have to learn till we die brother, please next time react a bit less tempered so we can have a good debate.
Peace
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peace arnold, peace all!
wow! i don't check this forus for a day, and look at this! thanks everyone for joining in the discussion!
Peace Jeff,
No i don't mind. Debating elevates understandings on both sides. The thing on the shahada is, why then did God leave that out? You say it is not compulsorary. Ok, let's say sunnism never excisted and all other sects never excisted, no hadith or sunna. You live on the North-pole and are thaught perfect classic-arabic. You get the Quran. Would you have ever made up to connect 'Muhammed Rasoolallah' with 'le illeh Allah'. Would you have ever thought of that? Would you ever think to say Muhammed in the shahada? You would read 'le illeh il Allah' more then 35 times, but never 'Muhammed rasoolAllah' connected with it, and you read verses as 3945 and other verses as 4012, 364, 4083-85, 4146, 320. Would you have ever by yourself thought of connecting these two as allowed to be connected?
this in an interesting point. but if i am correct, and the second half of the shahada come out of the need for muslims to testify their faith in the qur'an and the whole prophetic message, then our north-pole pals (santa's elves, perhaps? i hope so, because the idea of santa's elves being muslims makes me very happy for some reason!) might have come up with some phrase or something similar. again, just because its not in the qur'an doesn't make it wrong. it would only be wrong if it flies in the face of the qur'an. which, from what i can tell, it doesn't, given the passages i quoted in my initial post. the problem then, is not the shahada itself, but the idea that the second half is compalsory.
As for blessing Muhammed during the Salaat, you must read the Quran carefully as it clearly mentiones that the salaat is for God alone.
6162 Say "My contact-method, and my offerings, and my life, and my death, are all to God the Lord of the worlds."
4012 This is because when God Alone was mentioned, you rejected, but when partners were associated with Him, you believed. Therefore, the judgment is for God, the Most High, the Most Great.
3945 And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!
7218 And the temples are for God, so do not call on anyone with God.
7219 And when God's servant stood up to call on Him, they nearly banded to oppose him.
7220 Say "I only call on my Lord, and I do not associate anyone with Him."This is why i don't connect the blessing of Muhammed together with salaat, plus, where does it say you have to do it everytime? It only says to bless him. Not to do it everytime with salaat. This idea is purely originated from the sunni-sufism. Again, if you would live on the North-pole, with only knowing arabic. Would you have blessed Muhammed everytime with salaat and even connect it with salaat reading the verses above? Or would you have just done it while reading those verses?
again, and interesting point. but, at least in the salat as i practice it, the mentioning of muhammad takes place in two instances one is in the recounting of the meeting between allah and muhammad, in which i join with allah in praising muhammad and affirming him as prophet, join with muhammad in praising allah, and join in the angels in saying the shahada. next is in praying to allah for muhammad and his family (and for ibrahim and his family). from what i understand, this is more or less the basic sunni prayer. no where in here am i "calling" on anyone but allah. i'm praying for muhammad, and joining with allah and the angels in praising him (just as the qur'an says i should). just as in my du'a afterwards i tend to pray for my partner, my friends and family, the whole world and everyone / everything in it, etc. in all of this, i'm calling on allah, and allah is entirely the focus.
so, again, to me the question is not whether or not the qur'an contains this, but whether or not the qur'an forbids it... which it does not seem to do. the qur'an says to praise muhammad, and then leaves it up to us to decide how to do that. alhudilallah, s/he has left room for our creativity, imagination and growth, which we were clearly endowed with by her/him.
From my understanding, the Shahada is wrong for two reasons
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It makes a distinction amongst the messengers by giving greater weight to Mohammed (making his name part of the proclamation of faith).
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It was a sign of the hypocrates who bore witness to the messengership of Mohammed while God had already said that He is
sufficientas a witness (hence they were challenging God`s assertion by making this testimony).
peace layth!
i ask you to refer back to my initial post, and the passages from the qur'an i quoted... particularly 3321 for your point "1". that is it seems to me this passages points out that its proper for muhammad to be singled out by capital "M" Muslims as our guide. this doesn't make him, or even necessarily give him greater weight, in the grand scheme of things.
and i again refer you to 3356 in which we are asked to praise muhammad to answer part of your point "2". as for the rest of it, the word "sufficient" here can have various shades of meaning. it could also mean, like the way my father used to use it, that allah's witness is sufficient for us as proof that we should believe join with him in witnessing. the interpretation that says this "sufficient" means what you say it means is conjecture. as is what i just said. these are both interpretations. which means that neither are inherently wrong. to me the question then becomes which interpretation brings you closer to god? as allah is all-wise, i suspect that he left bigs chunks of the qur'an vague like this so that we could use our god-given creativity, intuition and reason to figure out the best way for us to come to him/her.
fun!
ba-ba-ba baa baa bababa baa baa jedi
peace!
jeff.
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Peace,
Quote
the problem then, is not the shahada itself, but the idea that the second half is compalsory.Exactly! The thing is that people made this obligatory while neglecting the rest. You cannot say it is compalsory, as otherwise they would be connected in the Quran. Since 'le illeh il Allah' is mentioned more then 35 times, and that believing in the Prophets, angels, YaumweDeen and the unseen is only mentioned a few times. Which will be the real testimony? You can say all the above in one sentence, no problem with that. But what is the main focus in the Quran. I believe the 35 times mentioned sentence.....
Quote
again, and interesting point. but, at least in the salat as i practice it, the mentioning of muhammad takes place in two instances one is in the recounting of the meeting between allah and muhammad, in which i join with allah in praising muhammad and affirming him as prophet, join with muhammad in praising allah, and join in the angels in saying the shahada. next is in praying to allah for muhammad and his family (and for ibrahim and his family). from what i understand, this is more or less the basic sunni prayer. no where in here am i "calling" on anyone but allah. i'm praying for muhammad, and joining with allah and the angels in praising him (just as the qur'an says i should). just as in my du'a afterwards i tend to pray for my partner, my friends and family, the whole world and everyone / everything in it, etc. in all of this, i'm calling on allah, and allah is entirely the focus.so, again, to me the question is not whether or not the qur'an contains this, but whether or not the qur'an forbids it... which it does not seem to do. the qur'an says to praise muhammad, and then leaves it up to us to decide how to do that. alhudilallah, s/he has left room for our creativity, imagination and growth, which we were clearly endowed with by her/him.
The problem with this is, that the salaat is to remember God. He never said it was meant for anything else. That you do it because the sunni's do it is a bit dangerous. The Quran gives a perfect complete prayer, but this is ignored. You cannot get a salaat from the hadith as they all contradict each other. The Quran itself gives a simple salaat, which cannot be doubted. Where does it say 'praise Muhammed'? It says bless him. Why pray for the dead? God says that no one can take away the deeds of another person. So your prayers are futile. Bless him, means respect him. The salaat is to remember God alone, you bring in a whole bunch of people.....That you pray for friends and all after your salaat is fine. But salaat is for God alone...
Peace
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hello and peace!
- muhammad i've read several things (unless i'm totally mistaken) in qur'an-only lit equating praying for and praising muhammad as making him equal to god. however, 33.56
God and His angels shower there blessings on the Prophet.
O believers, you should also send your blessings on him,
and salute him with a worthy greeting.(ahmed ali translation)
the progressive muslims translation
3356 God and His Angels connect with the prophet. O you who believe, you shall connect with him, and yield completely.
and, i don't find it horribly different in essence. i'b be interested in seeing a breakdown of the arabic. regardless, this would seem to allow for praying for and praising muhammad in salat and even leave room for salawat. not as equal to god, but more allong the lines of while we're connected to god in and immediately after salat, we might as well (should?) talk about the prophet, and "connect" with him, who's revelation we employ, etc. ((this might also indicate that the traditional shahada is not invalid if including "muhammadin rasulallah" (or which ever pronounciation you prefer).))
nabiy as referred to in this verse is not only Muhammad but all prophets, it is a concept of of how men should devote to God shall not direct but thru nabiy. Both translations shall be regarded as not relevant, shollu is not salawat neither connect but a legal commitment (QS.48/10 and QS.33/7).Then question is have we had nabiy now ? The answer is "none" as Muhammad's sovereeignity was over since Islam was out ruled by western imperialism, means Islam as a deen and nabiy as a system for devotion to God has no more in operation
which brings me to i've noted folks talking about not elevating muhammad above other prophets (which i agree with in essence... i have a very special place in my heart for the prophets lao-tzu, siddhartha, isa, krishna, etc.), but 33.21
You have indeed a noble paradigm
in the Apostle of Godthe p.m translation is even more interesting in this regard
3321 Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example has been set for you
so a focus on muhammad is certainly understandable for muslims. this does not necessarily mean that muhammad is superior, only that he kicks arse.
Islamism believes that Muhammad is a great prophet amonst others, but Al Quran forbides us to make difer of them. -
The problem with this is, that the salaat is to remember God.
Peace
As far as I believe Remembering Allah is totally differnt to the Salat, your statement above incline that both are the same, while in the following verse we see Allah deffrentiated between the two "Zikr Allah and Salat"
Recite that which hath been inspired in thee of the Scripture, and establish worship. Lo! worship preserveth from lewdness and iniquity, but verily remembrance of Allah is more important. And Allah knoweth what ye do.
(45)
-> See, Zikr Allah "Rememberence of Allah" is a different thing to the Salat, because It is "Akbr" from the Salat as 2945 is telling us
Therefore to say that the Salat is equal to the rememberance of Allah is inaccurate statement according to the Quran
Salam
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Peace,
I based my conclusion on these 2 verses
6162 Say, "My Contact Prayers (Salat), my worship practices, my life and my death, are all devoted absolutely to GOD (alone), the Lord of the universe.
6162. Tell them "My service and sacrifice, my life and my death, are all of them for God, the creator and Lord of all the worlds.2014 "I am GOD; there is no other god beside Me. you shall worship Me alone, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) to remember Me.
2014 "I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the contact-method for My remembrance." 2014. I am God, and there is no god but I, so serve Me, and observe acts of prayer to remember Me.That is why i believe you should not mention any names except God's. This idea of blessing Abraham's family is favoritism as why do you neglect Noah's family? Idris's family? Mention them all or don't mention any. But you cannot mention all the Prophet's and their families as we only know a few. But for me the verses above tell me enough to dedicate my prayer to God alone, plus i only use the Quran for my mechanics for salat-prayer. I can pray for others, but that is a doua. My salat-prayer is dedicated absolutely to God alone.
Peace
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The problem with this is, that the salaat is to remember God.
Peace
As far as I believe Remembering Allah is totally differnt to the Salat, your statement above incline that both are the same, while in the following verse we see Allah deffrentiated between the two "Zikr Allah and Salat"
Recite that which hath been inspired in thee of the Scripture, and establish worship. Lo! worship preserveth from lewdness and iniquity, but verily remembrance of Allah is more important. And Allah knoweth what ye do.
(45)
-> See, Zikr Allah "Rememberence of Allah" is a different thing to the Salat, because It is "Akbr" from the Salat as 2945 is telling us
Therefore to say that the Salat is equal to the rememberance of Allah is inaccurate statement according to the Quran
Salam
Are you sure there should be a but in the translation of this verse ?
but verily remembrance of Allah is more importantThe arabic is walathikru Allahi akbaru. Is not wa better translated by and ?
See also http//quranicteachings.co.uk/salat-zikr.htm
Peace
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Are you sure there should be a but in the translation of this verse ?
but verily remembrance of Allah is more importantPeace
Yes I'm sure, "Wa Le" should be tranlsated as "BUT"
The arabic is walathikru Allahi akbaru. Is not wa better translated by and ?
The Le after the Wa will make it BUT
See also http//quranicteachings.co.uk/salat-zikr.htm
Peace
Salat can be considered Zikr, I have no problem to acceot that, but that has to happen in specific times, the other more global "Zikr Allah" is at all times, hence it is Akbar from Salat
Salam
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Are you sure there should be a but in the translation of this verse ?
but verily remembrance of Allah is more importantPeace
Yes I'm sure, "Wa Le" should be tranlsated as "BUT"
The arabic is walathikru Allahi akbaru. Is not wa better translated by and ?
The Le after the Wa will make it BUT
How do you explain that many translators have rendered it with "and" ?
cf http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/29/45/default.htmPeace
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Peace AB,
Peace mate
AB, about strong point on shahada.
Anything that is Quran only based is the strongest argument for any true believer, that is what I meant by his point, how he presents it, is a totally different story
It gives a flawless view
It certainly does because we refer everything to Allah through His preserved and unchanged real words, if we start referring it to humans without any compelling authority then expect the flaws, yet I expect flaws from those humans with authority
but after seeing how people twist the meanings to fit their lifes and since I know nothing,
You are right that people twist the meanings of the Quran, this applies to all without exceptions, simply because it is not human words and only those who was given knowledge from Allah will be able to understand Allah words
On the other hand you are wrong in saying you know nothing because I see you know a fair bit or at least wants to know and the honest desire to know is a great knowledge on its own
I wont agree until I have clearer view. It cld get clearer easly, if ppl like Arnold stop mystifying, conjectureing and labeling.
Good, let?s go back to basics and try to see if some logic can fit in according to the picture as we see it now
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we have been taught since birth to be a Muslim you must say the Shahada, which sounds reasonable so far
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the Shahada by definition is ?To declare a statement as a witness?, this statement in the human world may or may not have any value indeed. Also in the human world most likely this Shahada is needed only ONCE, not all life long
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people may ask, possibly it was an order from Allah to say the Shahada all life long, which again sounds very reasonable if this is the case
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But the word Shahada ?as such? NEVER appeared in the Quran, let?s look at a few examples out of many where the word Shahada appeared, we will be able to divide the word occurrences into two main groups
The first group, relates to Allah in two aspects
A) He is ?Alim Al Ghayb and Shahada?, ?The knower if unseen and witnessing?
B) He is the only One that can offer the biggest of Shahada, i.e. He is the most trusted witnessWe see the sub group (A) in the following examples
Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, the Mighty, the Wise.
(1
-> I believe the translation above is odd, the translators thought wrongly that ?Al Ghayb? is the opposite of ?Shahada?, therefore they translated Shahada as ?Visible?, which is wrong, the verse means that Allah know the UNSEEN ?Ghayb?, and He knows the true/fake Witnessing ?Shahada?
-> The exact same appeared in the following verses
628, 5922, 3964, 326, 2392, 139, 9105, 994, 673
-> Obviously it means that Allah knows if any witness is crook or not, this understanding makes more sense when bearing in mind how Allah warned us against giving false witnessing ?He is the only one that can know the truthful witness?, this really enlighten us a bit considering that giving Shahada in Islam is to declare that there is only one God who is Allah, the matter is an affair between any person and Allah only, others has nothing to do with this Shahada, in a way others fate can?t be dependent on this self Shahada that there is no God but Allah, now considering that Allah only is the knower of the truthful Shahada, the matter for us to repeat it all day long does not really make any sense, sounds like I want to convince Allah that I believe that there no God but Him, which is ridiculous, the reason I?m saying that is simply there is no direct order from Allah to do such Shahada regarding His God status, even when the prophet had issues with the arrogant humans He declared that Allah is the worthy of all witnesses
Group (B) above is seen in the following verse
Say What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say I do not bear witness. Say He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
(19)
The second group of Shahada verses relate to human affairs, an example as follow
O ye who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take) witnesses among yourselves when making bequests,- two just men of your own (brotherhood) or others from outside if ye are journeying through the earth, and the chance of death befalls you (thus). If ye doubt (their truth), detain them both after prayer, and let them both swear by Allah "We wish not in this for any worldly gain, even though the (beneficiary) be our near relation we shall hide not the evidence before Allah if we do, then behold! the sin be upon us!
(106)
-> It is really strange that we were taught that the Shahada is the most important requirement to be a Muslim and must be said all day long, as well in the hadith we have been taught that if the Shahada is our last words then we go straight to the garden which surely does not make sense, yet in the above verse we see at the moment of death Allah is advising us to make a totally different Shahada that relates to our human affairs.
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Therefore the whole Quran does not have just one incident of ordering the verbal Shahada that there is no God but Allah ?I assumed that this is the required Shahada?, however when I matured I started realizing that the required Shahada must have this part ?Mohammad Rasool Allah?, well this raised my eye brow really high, but I said if it is an order from Allah, why not, but the problem I faced is this, declaring that there no God but Allah all day long was never ordered in the Quran, how come I will find the second part of declaring Mohammad Rasool Allah all day long?, sure it must not exist if the first does not exist
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By looking at all the verses where the words ?La Ilah Ila?..? appeared we will discover the following and shocking results
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, "La Ilah Ila...", "There is no God but...", 37 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Hu", "There is no God but Him", 30 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Ana", "There is no God but Me", 3 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Allah", "There is no God but Allah", 2 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Anta...", "There is no God but You", 1 time
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, "La Ilah Ila alazi...", "There is no God but The One Who...", 1 time
IN NON of these 37 times we read "Mohammad Rasool Allah" after any of the above
But what I found very amazing is "La Ilah Ila Allah" was repeated twice in the Quran, one of them is in sura 47 the sura name is "Mohammad", therefore you expect that "Mohammad Rasool Allah" appears after "La Ilah Ila Allah" in this sura at least, and again it never happened.
The reason I called shocking is simply, how come this Shahada taught to us by humans who are vulnerable to Satan that it is the most important act to be a Muslim be even close to the truth while Allah NEVER EVER told us about it?, it was not even something that needed further explanation by the prophet, simply the Oneness of Allah need no explanation
The Shahada on the other hand contradicts this Oneness of Allah, because simply Allah does not need humans to give witness of His God status ?Kafa Bellah Shahida? , He only wants us to believe in Him as the only God who created us and who sent many prophets to warn us of the Day of Account, as well it contradicts the Oneness of Allah by associating a human name next to the suppose to be the Shahada for the one God, that human was also created by Allah and will also give account on the JD, we don?t need to pay much attention to his relation with Allah because this is really between them, we only need to follow those prophets who will also give account like us exactly, so why is the name of one of those great prophets should be said after Allah unique name all day long?, WHAT DOES IT PROVE?
The only authority for the Shahada came from the hadith, this makes me wonder, does Satan figured out that it is really hard to make a Muslim Kafir ?by rejecting the last warning of Allah? as He does with a Christian or any other religion, so it is more appropriate for the Muslims to make them Mushrikoon, and sure he figured out that it is hard to convince the Muslims that Mohammad is another God, so the least he managed to do is to convince us to say the name Mohammad next to Allah Name all day long, his only way in was the hadith, sure he figured out that he can?t do it through the Quran as he did with the other scriptures, as well considering the action of Omar when he heard Abu Hurairah saying it in public that it is shirk, we also should consider that Abu Hurariah can?t be taken for granted as an honest person ?I don?t say that he was a dishonest man?, the Quran never mentioned his name any way, in fact the Quran suggested the opposite that humans will never know what is inside other humans, therefore I can?t take the order of Shahada that sounds like clear cut shirk ?considering 3945? from Abu Hurairah as another Authority, as taking it from him is another clear cut case of shirk, wow, the Shahada is indeed DOUBLE SHIRK in one sentence, isn?t Satan very generous?, for shirk sake, bloody he is.
I agree ''You would read 'le illeh il Allah' more then 35 times, but never 'Muhammed rasoolAllah' connected with it, and you read verses...'' but what ever else you mentioned and shirk/shrek you mentioned sounds egoistic or agenda oriented.
Actually ?La Ilah Ila Allah? appeared 2 times only, but let me ask you why you think something that important like Shahada was never said in the Quran?, would that make it quite possible that it constitute SHIRK?
Look Allah is not shy to praise Nohammad in the Quran, in fact Mohammad was praised big deal in the Quran, but why the Shahada ?which is reciting Mohammad name next to Allah name all life long? WAS MEVER MENTIONED IN THE QURAN ONCE?
Let?s look at the suppose to be the 5 columns of Islam
- Shahada comes at no 1 (NEVER EVER MENTIONED and only Authorised by Abu Hurairah)
- Salat (Mentioned zillions of times by Allah)
- Zakat (Mentioned zillions of times by Allah)
- Fast (Mentioned quite a few times by Allah)
- Hajj (Mentioned quite a few times by Allah)
Now let me ask you again and again bro, why the no 1 Shahada was never mentioned ONCE in the Quran?
How about looking at logically, does saying a creature name along with its creator all life long is SHIRK?
If it even sounds like shirk ?not 100% shirk?, would that be enough reason that IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE QURAN ONCE?
Thank you brother
Allah bless
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How do you explain that many translators have rendered it with "and" ?
cf http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/29/45/default.htmPeace
Peace
if the above is a question for me
look bro, i don't really give a fuss if it is but or and, the translators got the but & and wrong many times anyway as well i look at it by hearing it how it sounds in Arabic not really how it is read in english, now i don't give a fuss if it is but or and because the context will not change
Zikr Allah is Akbar from Salat
because
Zikr Allah happens at all times while Salat happens at specific and limited time
Salam
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Peace AB,
Peace mate
AB, about strong point on shahada.
Anything that is Quran only based is the strongest argument for any true believer, that is what I meant by his point, how he presents it, is a totally different story
It gives a flawless view
It certainly does because we refer everything to Allah through His preserved and unchanged real words, if we start referring it to humans without any compelling authority then expect the flaws, yet I expect flaws from those humans with authority
but after seeing how people twist the meanings to fit their lifes and since I know nothing,
You are right that people twist the meanings of the Quran, this applies to all without exceptions, simply because it is not human words and only those who was given knowledge from Allah will be able to understand Allah words
On the other hand you are wrong in saying you know nothing because I see you know a fair bit or at least wants to know and the honest desire to know is a great knowledge on its own
I wont agree until I have clearer view. It cld get clearer easly, if ppl like Arnold stop mystifying, conjectureing and labeling.
Good, let?s go back to basics and try to see if some logic can fit in according to the picture as we see it now
-
we have been taught since birth to be a Muslim you must say the Shahada, which sounds reasonable so far
-
the Shahada by definition is ?To declare a statement as a witness?, this statement in the human world may or may not have any value indeed. Also in the human world most likely this Shahada is needed only ONCE, not all life long
-
people may ask, possibly it was an order from Allah to say the Shahada all life long, which again sounds very reasonable if this is the case
-
But the word Shahada ?as such? NEVER appeared in the Quran, let?s look at a few examples out of many where the word Shahada appeared, we will be able to divide the word occurrences into two main groups
The first group, relates to Allah in two aspects
A) He is ?Alim Al Ghayb and Shahada?, ?The knower if unseen and witnessing?
B) He is the only One that can offer the biggest of Shahada, i.e. He is the most trusted witnessWe see the sub group (A) in the following examples
Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, the Mighty, the Wise.
(1
-> I believe the translation above is odd, the translators thought wrongly that ?Al Ghayb? is the opposite of ?Shahada?, therefore they translated Shahada as ?Visible?, which is wrong, the verse means that Allah know the UNSEEN ?Ghayb?, and He knows the true/fake Witnessing ?Shahada?
-> The exact same appeared in the following verses
628, 5922, 3964, 326, 2392, 139, 9105, 994, 673
-> Obviously it means that Allah knows if any witness is crook or not, this understanding makes more sense when bearing in mind how Allah warned us against giving false witnessing ?He is the only one that can know the truthful witness?, this really enlighten us a bit considering that giving Shahada in Islam is to declare that there is only one God who is Allah, the matter is an affair between any person and Allah only, others has nothing to do with this Shahada, in a way others fate can?t be dependent on this self Shahada that there is no God but Allah, now considering that Allah only is the knower of the truthful Shahada, the matter for us to repeat it all day long does not really make any sense, sounds like I want to convince Allah that I believe that there no God but Him, which is ridiculous, the reason I?m saying that is simply there is no direct order from Allah to do such Shahada regarding His God status, even when the prophet had issues with the arrogant humans He declared that Allah is the worthy of all witnesses
Group (B) above is seen in the following verse
Say What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say I do not bear witness. Say He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
(19)
The second group of Shahada verses relate to human affairs, an example as follow
O ye who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take) witnesses among yourselves when making bequests,- two just men of your own (brotherhood) or others from outside if ye are journeying through the earth, and the chance of death befalls you (thus). If ye doubt (their truth), detain them both after prayer, and let them both swear by Allah "We wish not in this for any worldly gain, even though the (beneficiary) be our near relation we shall hide not the evidence before Allah if we do, then behold! the sin be upon us!
(106)
-> It is really strange that we were taught that the Shahada is the most important requirement to be a Muslim and must be said all day long, as well in the hadith we have been taught that if the Shahada is our last words then we go straight to the garden which surely does not make sense, yet in the above verse we see at the moment of death Allah is advising us to make a totally different Shahada that relates to our human affairs.
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Therefore the whole Quran does not have just one incident of ordering the verbal Shahada that there is no God but Allah ?I assumed that this is the required Shahada?, however when I matured I started realizing that the required Shahada must have this part ?Mohammad Rasool Allah?, well this raised my eye brow really high, but I said if it is an order from Allah, why not, but the problem I faced is this, declaring that there no God but Allah all day long was never ordered in the Quran, how come I will find the second part of declaring Mohammad Rasool Allah all day long?, sure it must not exist if the first does not exist
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By looking at all the verses where the words ?La Ilah Ila?..? appeared we will discover the following and shocking results
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, "La Ilah Ila...", "There is no God but...", 37 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Hu", "There is no God but Him", 30 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Ana", "There is no God but Me", 3 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Allah", "There is no God but Allah", 2 times
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, "La Ilah Ila Anta...", "There is no God but You", 1 time
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, "La Ilah Ila alazi...", "There is no God but The One Who...", 1 time
IN NON of these 37 times we read "Mohammad Rasool Allah" after any of the above
But what I found very amazing is "La Ilah Ila Allah" was repeated twice in the Quran, one of them is in sura 47 the sura name is "Mohammad", therefore you expect that "Mohammad Rasool Allah" appears after "La Ilah Ila Allah" in this sura at least, and again it never happened.
The reason I called shocking is simply, how come this Shahada taught to us by humans who are vulnerable to Satan that it is the most important act to be a Muslim be even close to the truth while Allah NEVER EVER told us about it?, it was not even something that needed further explanation by the prophet, simply the Oneness of Allah need no explanation
The Shahada on the other hand contradicts this Oneness of Allah, because simply Allah does not need humans to give witness of His God status ?Kafa Bellah Shahida? , He only wants us to believe in Him as the only God who created us and who sent many prophets to warn us of the Day of Account, as well it contradicts the Oneness of Allah by associating a human name next to the suppose to be the Shahada for the one God, that human was also created by Allah and will also give account on the JD, we don?t need to pay much attention to his relation with Allah because this is really between them, we only need to follow those prophets who will also give account like us exactly, so why is the name of one of those great prophets should be said after Allah unique name all day long?, WHAT DOES IT PROVE?
The only authority for the Shahada came from the hadith, this makes me wonder, does Satan figured out that it is really hard to make a Muslim Kafir ?by rejecting the last warning of Allah? as He does with a Christian or any other religion, so it is more appropriate for the Muslims to make them Mushrikoon, and sure he figured out that it is hard to convince the Muslims that Mohammad is another God, so the least he managed to do is to convince us to say the name Mohammad next to Allah Name all day long, his only way in was the hadith, sure he figured out that he can?t do it through the Quran as he did with the other scriptures, as well considering the action of Omar when he heard Abu Hurairah saying it in public that it is shirk, we also should consider that Abu Hurariah can?t be taken for granted as an honest person ?I don?t say that he was a dishonest man?, the Quran never mentioned his name any way, in fact the Quran suggested the opposite that humans will never know what is inside other humans, therefore I can?t take the order of Shahada that sounds like clear cut shirk ?considering 3945? from Abu Hurairah as another Authority, as taking it from him is another clear cut case of shirk, wow, the Shahada is indeed DOUBLE SHIRK in one sentence, isn?t Satan very generous?, for shirk sake, bloody he is.
I agree ''You would read 'le illeh il Allah' more then 35 times, but never 'Muhammed rasoolAllah' connected with it, and you read verses...'' but what ever else you mentioned and shirk/shrek you mentioned sounds egoistic or agenda oriented.
Actually ?La Ilah Ila Allah? appeared 2 times only, but let me ask you why you think something that important like Shahada was never said in the Quran?, would that make it quite possible that it constitute SHIRK?
Look Allah is not shy to praise Nohammad in the Quran, in fact Mohammad was praised big deal in the Quran, but why the Shahada ?which is reciting Mohammad name next to Allah name all life long? WAS MEVER MENTIONED IN THE QURAN ONCE?
Let?s look at the suppose to be the 5 columns of Islam
- Shahada comes at no 1 (NEVER EVER MENTIONED and only Authorised by Abu Hurairah)
- Salat (Mentioned zillions of times by Allah)
- Zakat (Mentioned zillions of times by Allah)
- Fast (Mentioned quite a few times by Allah)
- Hajj (Mentioned quite a few times by Allah)
Now let me ask you again and again bro, why the no 1 Shahada was never mentioned ONCE in the Quran?
How about looking at logically, does saying a creature name along with its creator all life long is SHIRK?
If it even sounds like shirk ?not 100% shirk?, would that be enough reason that IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE QURAN ONCE?
Thank you brother
Allah bless
Peace Ab, you presented it very well. This was exactly the way i approach it and present it to other people.
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Peace be upon you xrededgex,
Welcome to the forum. I don't have a comment on your original post as of yet and probably won't respond in this thread anyway because it has gone of course. But I am interested in the "dervich" mediations that I saw on a television documentary that you might be familiar with. Is this something you practice or are familiar with?
I am also starting a thread on 3356 because there are some issues I need to get clarity on.
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peace ahmed
Very well done.
However, saying the shahadah in my prayer i believe i am not doing it to convince Allah, more strengthening my faith. To me mentioning God's qualities etc... strenghtens my faith. I am talking about the one in 318. Not the comical Abu Hurairah version. Though you are abolutely right it is not necessary at all. It's what's in the heart that counts. Good points
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How do you explain that many translators have rendered it with "and" ?
cf http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/29/45/default.htmPeace
Peace
if the above is a question for me
look bro, i don't really give a fuss if it is but or and, the translators got the but & and wrong many times anyway as well i look at it by hearing it how it sounds in Arabic not really how it is read in english, now i don't give a fuss if it is but or and because the context will not change
Zikr Allah is Akbar from Salat
because
Zikr Allah happens at all times while Salat happens at specific and limited time
Salam
Peace Ahmed,
I strongly doubt of the translation of wala by but, because of the following points
- The Arabic word for but is lakin, or wa-lakin
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but (wa-lakin) they realise (it) not.
Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but (wa-lakin) they do not know.
- la can be used for negation. It that case, wa-la = and not
Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not (la) avail another, nor (wa-la) shall compensation be accepted from her nor (wa-la) shall intercession profit her nor (wa-la) shall anyone be helped (from outside).
Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor (wa-la) helper.
- la can also be used to emphasize something. It is is then translated by indeed, or surely.
The (Qur'an) is indeed the message (la-thikrun), for thee and for thy people; and soon shall ye (all) be brought to account.
Verily in this is a Message (la-thikra) for any that has a heart and understanding or who gives ear and earnestly witnesses (the truth).
And Allah most certainly knows (Wa-la-yaAAlamanna) those who believe, and as certainly (Wa-la-yaAAlamanna ) those who are Hypocrites.
Wa-la-yaAAlamanna = and - surely - he knows
Therefore, to come back to , wa-la-thikru can be translated in 2 ways
wa-la-thikru = and not remembrance => and the remembrance of God is not the greatest
wa-la-thikru = and surely remembrance => and surely the remembrance of God is the greatestThe second way seems better by tasreef.
This is this way several translators have rendered this verse
(Yusuf Ali) and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt
(Shakir) and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest
(Malik) and surely the remembrance of Allah is the greatest indeed
(Maulana Ali) and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest
(Asad) and remembrance of God is indeed the greatestLooking forward for your comments
Peace
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Peace JM
I told you man earlier that it does not matter with me if it is a but or and now, the context stays the same
so let's consider it "and", the translation should be
and surely remembrance => and surely the remembrance of God is greater
the bolded part is now accurate as well according to the arabic words
cheers
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Peace JM
I told you man earlier that it does not matter with me if it is a but or and now, the context stays the same
so let's consider it "and", the translation should be
and surely remembrance => and surely the remembrance of God is greater
the bolded part is now accurate as well according to the arabic words
cheers
Ahmed,
As you may know, some Sufis (among them, Martin Lings) have distorted this verse to prove that their rituals are better than salat.
They have distorted it by translating wa by "but''. Thus, they have fabricated an opposition between salat and dhikr.
However, as it is showed by verses and , the salat is a mean to remember God, therefore, there is no point in opposing or comparing salat and dhikr.
Peace
PS why are you translating akhbar by "greater" instead of "the greatest" ?
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Ahmed,
Peace bro
As you may know, some Sufis (among them, Martin Lings) have distorted this verse to prove that their rituals are better than salat.
Actually I never knew that, but thanks for telling me, however I take rituals as the meaning of Salat if rituals means to connect to Allah
They have distorted it by translating wa by "but''. Thus, they have fabricated an opposition between salat and dhikr.
Well, I didn?t do that, it was Allah who said that Zikr Allah is Akbar from Salat
However, as it is showed by verses and , the salat is a mean to remember God, therefore, there is no point in opposing or comparing salat and dhikr.
Well, you may save this argument to Allah on the JD then, because it is clearly a comparison by Allah regarding the Zikr and the Salat, I think you missed how Zikr is Akbar from Salat
2945 is telling us that the Salat preserveth from lewdness and iniquity, then it added that Zikr Allah is Akbar, i.e. Zikr Allah is higher in motivation to preserveth from lewdness and iniquity, obviously because Zikr Allah can happen all day long at any time and during all that time that we remember Allah we will be motivated to preserveth from lewdness and iniquity
PS why are you translating akhbar by "greater" instead of "the greatest" ?
Because if it is ?the greatest? is has to be ?Al Akbar?, when the Al is dropped then the word is to compare two entities, this is Arabic grammar, of course you expect the second entity to come after the word of comparison ?Akbar?, but it was mentioned earlier ?The Salat preserveth from lewdness and iniquity? and the Arabic Balagha will omit it from being repeated again
Peace
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PS why are you translating akhbar by "greater" instead of "the greatest" ?
Because if it is ?the greatest? is has to be ?Al Akbar?, when the Al is dropped then the word is to compare two entities, this is Arabic grammar, of course you expect the second entity to come after the word of comparison ?Akbar?, but it was mentioned earlier ?The Salat preserveth from lewdness and iniquity? and the Arabic Balagha will omit it from being repeated again
Peace
The Arabic sentence is thikru Allahi akbaru.
For it to mean that dhikr is greater than salat, it should have been something like this thikru Allahi akbaru min salat.
But it is not what Allah have said, so, we cannot state it.
In the Arabic language, a comparative (like akbar) without a term of comparison (like min salat) is becomes a superlative.
Akbar is the elative form of the adjective kabr. The elative combines the meanings of comparative (greater than) and superlative (most great). However, the elative is only explicitly a term of comparison when used with the preposition min, e.g. Allhu akbar min mala'ikatihi, "Allah is greater than His angels", Allhu Akbar min kulli shay "Allah is greater than all". Without a term of comparison, the elative conveys the superlative quality "greatest", "supreme."
http//www.answers.com/topic/takbirPlease correct if I am wrong.
Peace