How do you explain this with regard to an all-powerful god?
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Peace all,
I think the questions have been well and thoroughly answered. handshake
However, I couldn't help adding this;
Agent Smith stands in the bedroon of the enormous suite, staring out the windows at the city, below, shimmering with brilliant sunlight.
AGENT SMITH "Have you ever stood and stared at it, Morpheus? Marveled at its beauty. Its genius. Billions of people just living out their lives... oblivious."
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost."
"Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery."
The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was re-designed to this the peak of your civilization.
I say 'your civilization' because as soon as we start thinking for you, it really becomes our civilization, which is, of course, what this is all about...
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Peace all. In reading a book about the 'non-existence' of god,a person put forward the comment that seeing all the uneccessary horrendous suffering of innocents in the world,why did god not have the power to let humans exercise free-will which simultaneously leads to only peaceful and beneficial outcomes....?
Why cant god grant free-will to all people,but also ensure this free-will leads to peace only......?
The comment thus concluded the non-existence of god.
If our free-will is absolute or very important in determining what happens to create this suffering,then at what stage (if any.) does god intervene to stop horrendous large scale suffering of innocents?Some links
http//www.islamalways.com/en/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=24
http//www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15870_1.htmlPeace
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Peace all. In reading a book about the 'non-existence' of god,a person put forward the comment that seeing all the uneccessary horrendous suffering of innocents in the world,why did god not have the power to let humans exercise free-will which simultaneously leads to only peaceful and beneficial outcomes....?
Why cant god grant free-will to all people,but also ensure this free-will leads to peace only......?
The comment thus concluded the non-existence of god.
If our free-will is absolute or very important in determining what happens to create this suffering,then at what stage (if any.) does god intervene to stop horrendous large scale suffering of innocents?Salam
The essence of freewill is encapsulated in chaos, if no chaos there is no free-will. Interestingly, with a freewill we also know what is right and wrong and between these two is how we are tested. Thus, our salah is to put things in order. i.e to control our freewill to establish the harmony within the system!
Peace
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Peace all. Thank you all for all your very interesting replies.
Elke;thanks for the applause and your interesting insights...'he/she who dares wins'.... )Someone;i dont know if the author equates suffering with the examples you gave,or regards 'natural' processes as equivelant to human suffering,but i have heard others state that; 'why have innocent animals suffered unnecessarily as well as humans'...
I appreciate that a LITTLE suffering/resistance in life is good for development,but i fail to see how the deaths of little children in iraq,or the houlocast do much for development...?
I read one person state that; 'why cant god test us,and increase our development in means/ways that dont involve such huge death,suffering and destruction'...?Nadeem,,tay and phoenix; I appreciate your views on free-will,however i dont think free-will is 'absolute',i know that because i cant just wish/will for the laws of gravity to be suspended or for free ice-cream for life..(.Well i havent worked out how just yet...
Anyway,the point being made is that if god knows everything in advance then the future is fixed by him....so the free-will is limited by gods prior knowldege/the fixed determination...So why could not an all-powerful god determine the future as mostly good (except for a little 'resistance to aid development.) but still give humans free-will,limited or absolute...?
To those who say god has fixed laws,or god cannot or does not do things beyond normal logic,then what of creation from nothing,miracles,etc....? And if god only works in a 'logical' way that can be understood by humans,then why is soo much religion geared to 'faith'/'allah knows best',and why is there little 'objective' proof for the tradtional view of god? Also why are people limiting god and what he can do by applying normal human 'logic' to his workings....? Is god bound by the laws of logic,or by time/fixed laws etc?....This seems like human anthromorphisation and projection of humanness onto god...Idolfree;i appreciate that your answers to these points are very different,and i also appreciate your view of subjective and objective proofs for god is vastly differnet from many other members.....Your answer makes sense,but your defintion of god is vastly different,and i dont think its 100% consistent with regard to why 'unnecessary' suffering occurs. )
Khalil,bmbmm and zenje; very interesting comments you three made...food for thought....
All i can say is regardless of traditional theology,i personally will try to ease suffering with my limited freewill,and in my limited capacity as a fallible human being...
handshake muscle peace -
Peace
Nadeem,,tay and phoenix; I appreciate your views on free-will,however i dont think free-will is 'absolute',i know that because i cant just wish/will for the laws of gravity to be suspended or for free ice-cream for life..(.Well i havent worked out how just yet... Wink
Anyway,the point being made is that if god knows everything in advance then the future is fixed by him....so the free-will is limited by gods prior knowldege/the fixed determination...So why could not an all-powerful god determine the future as mostly good (except for a little 'resistance to aid development.) but still give humans free-will,limited or absolute...?You've misunderstood Nadeem.
I don't need to say anything. It's perfectly clear
"Free-will" is a state were the "will" is without restrictions, agreed? Asking for this, you've made no breach in logic.
But then you turn around and want to control that "will" into only doing actions which you perceive as good, thereby putting restrictions on it, yet, on there other hand you still want it to be a "free will". This is logically impossible. If God did manage to do this, It would prove that logic is faulty.
That answers your question, 100%.
Also, may I ask what book you're reading and by whom it was written. You didn't really give a name in your original post, so I'm just curious.
Peace.
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Anyway,the point being made is that if god knows everything in advance then the future is fixed by him....so the free-will is limited by gods prior knowldege/the fixed determination...So why could not an all-powerful god determine the future as mostly good (except for a little 'resistance to aid development.) but still give humans free-will,limited or absolute...?
I suggest you to read the following book http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/kt/KT.htm
(the best book of Parwez IMHO)Peace
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Peace Enquirer
It is what it is. There is suffering, pain, death, war, hatred, hypocrisy, betrayal, disease, this I can see. Instead of asking why doesn't God do this or that (that is, being in agreement with my whims, I who has naught of the capacity to manage any world) I would ask why does God do this? I do not believe God is one who should act in accordance with my own will.
Joe
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Peace all
Well said, Nabi.
Enquirer, earlier you said
This seems like human anthromorphisation and projection of humanness onto god...
Doesn't this seem a bit like what you're doing or what the author is doing? We can't force our feelings, thoughts, knowledge, etc. unto God and expect Him to work in accordance with those things.
Peace
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suffering in this life is the biggest issue that had me not believing in a Soverign God because of all the pain and misery.
We read in the Quran all of the reasons for suffering, and I find them very helpful in dealing with this issue.
Yet we see things like two muslim babies born with heads joined together, and I have to ask who's fault is this? God formed them in the womb and knew that this was goling to happen and let it happen.
So I come to the conclution it is one of two possiblities and I lean toward the second. One, we were alive before and we pay for our sins of a previous life, or the Torah is correct that God punishes sin to the fourth generation, and rewards rightousness to 1000 generations.
The Quran tells us that anything bad that happens to us is our fault, and no one suffers for the sins of another, with this logic we must be paying for a previous life, yet I cannot recall one, so I lean to the torah where it is written God punishes to 4 generations.
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Peace enquirer,
I appreciate your views on free-will,however i dont think free-will is 'absolute',i know that because i cant just wish/will for the laws of gravity to be suspended or for free ice-cream for life..
Free-will has nothing to do with a being super-hero or a genie. It has to do with thought. You can think whatever you want and act out that thought however you want within your physical capacity.
Anyway,the point being made is that if god knows everything in advance then the future is fixed by him....so the free-will is limited by gods prior knowldege/the fixed determination...So why could not an all-powerful god determine the future as mostly good (except for a little 'resistance to aid development.) but still give humans free-will,limited or absolute...?
I don't believe in fixed determination or prior knowledge. God is not limited to our linear time and space.
There is no limit to free-will. We are where we are because of free-will. As for why we even have free-will, that's another thread entirely.To those who say god has fixed laws,or god cannot or does not do things beyond normal logic,then what of creation from nothing,miracles,etc....?
What miracles? Everything that happens does so according to God's laws. Some things are misunderstood as miracles, and some things we just haven't explored/understood yet.
And if god only works in a 'logical' way that can be understood by humans,then why is soo much religion geared to 'faith'/'allah knows best',and why is there little 'objective' proof for the tradtional view of god?
I'm not sure about religions, and I'd rather not broaden the scope of your questions even further. Let's keep the focus in God. As for objective proof of the traditional view, I'm not sure anything like that exists, unless someone has a picture of God sitting on a throne spearing lightning bolts into countries.
Also why are people limiting god and what he can do by applying normal human 'logic' to his workings....?
Who has done this? If it's me you're referring to, all I said was that God created the universe with structure and laws. To take it further, our only interaction with God must take place within these confines because that is all we can perceive. It makes no sense for God to interact with us outside of the only world we can perceive. So long as we keep our focus on the nuts and bolts of reality, all we will see is nuts and bolts. And nuts and bolts are what make up objective proof. If one wants to delve into the mind of God, per se, then one must look within, into the realm of the subjective.
Lastly, logic is not human, otherwise, it would not be universally agreed upon. Logic was not invented but discovered.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace open-mind,tay,idolfree and all. Openmind; the book is called ; 'the non-existence of god' by nicholas everitt. By routledge books. Google it if you wish...
Tay and idol-free,you two (unless i am mistaken.) subscribe to 'panentheism',or us being a part of the god...? If this is so,then how can it be said that only ONE god created laws and processes that are fixed...? Does ONE part of the god have more power/say/will than the other parts...? Why would the parts of the god be at war/disagree with the other parts...?
At what stage does the ONE god intervene and limit our free-will...? Why cant my free-will will peace for all? Do we have free-will as to whether we get to heaven or not? (or is it gods will that we get there?)
And finally,if the ONE god is all-powerful,then surely HE takes SOME or even ALL the responsibility for all the suffering and mischief in the world....? When did a responsible boss ever blame the free-will of his workers for the failure of HIS company...? Looks like god/his followers are making many excuses to run from gods failures in the world....?
Peace all. -
Peace,
Enquirer, i also believe we are part of God, but we don't take in 'the backseat' of God, we don't 'use up' space. It is one All, undivided and all-connected. The conciousness of God is everywhere.
As for His 'failures', let me ask you this
To what exstent may God force His will upon you? To what limit will you give up your freewill to have only 'goodness' in this world? And would you understand good without knowing bad? Plus can you explain the creation of this excistence without an intelligence?
Peace
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Peace enquirer,
You stated
Tay and idol-free,you two (unless i am mistaken.) subscribe to 'panentheism',or us being a part of the god...?
I can only speak for myself...yes, sort of.
how can it be said that only ONE god created laws and processes that are fixed...? Does ONE part of the god have more power/say/will than the other parts...?
The soul is eternal, the mind is material.
Why would the parts of the god be at war/disagree with the other parts...?
Because these "parts" are material, temporary, works of the mind, which is not "part" of the divine.
At what stage does the ONE god intervene and limit our free-will...?
At a time appointed.
Why cant my free-will will peace for all?
It can. Peace is already there. Everything else is an illusion.
Do we have free-will as to whether we get to heaven or not? (or is it gods will that we get there?)
My understanding is that heaven is not a place, but a result. You either prime yourself for the next phase, or you don't.
And finally,if the ONE god is all-powerful,then surely HE takes SOME or even ALL the responsibility for all the suffering and mischief in the world....?
You're missing the point. Suffering and mischief is an illusion. It's like virtual reality. You put on the glasses and you see all this crap, and you do what you can to make things better. But eventually, it will be "game over", and you take the glasses off, and you're back to peace.
When did a responsible boss ever blame the free-will of his workers for the failure of HIS company...?
Huh? Sorry, but you're analogy is terrible. The boss did not create the workers.
Looks like god/his followers are making many excuses to run from gods failures in the world....?
Call it what you want, but if you want to discuss this from a non-judgemental point of view, I would suggest accepting the premises I've explained in furthering your query, because what you've offered in that last comment isn't even in the same universe as what I've been explaining. There's no progress in repeatedly starting from square one.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace enquirer,
Next time, state that in your original post. Instead of going out of your way to be vague for whatever reason( D ???)
In reading a book about the 'non-existence' of god,a person put forward the comment
Be direct, give us the name of the book and author just as you did on Page Two
the book is called ; 'the non-existence of god' by nicholas everitt.
Good job and thank you. Wasn't that hard, right?
Peace.
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Peace tay,arnoldyasin,and all. Tay if you think suffering is just an illusion,then i will leave you too it bro...That understanding is of little consolation to starving children is it? I cant seriously entertain people who are just avoiding and be-littling the existence of suffering as an illusion,in a vain attempt to glorify a concept of god,or their own personal beliefs.....Seems irresponsible....Anyway....
Arnoldyasin; I can explain the existence of this world without an 'intelligent' creator by cause and effect,evolution,and the notion that all that exists (forms of energy.) has always existed anyway (ie, is eternal.) and didnt need anything to create it....If someone says that there must be a cause for every effect,well what caused god? The concept of everthing being eternal and 'uncreated' is similiar and more logical than the concept of ONE god being eternal and 'uncreated'...
Also,how are we a part of god,when god is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing and we are obviously not....? Im very curious on this one arnie,i hope you and/or idol-free can explain this one for me...Thanks... handshake -
Peace,
That is the fatal flaw people always fall into. You need a first mover. Something that started the first move. This can only be done with an intelligence, a will to move. Unconciousness energy has no reason to move, so it can never be started without an intelligence deciding to start it all.And the eternal universe has been disproven already, not just by the bigbang, but also by that all energy should have been dispursed so far from each other it could have never formed any stars and planets like it is now.
And how can eternal energy be more logical then a conciousness that started it all? You have to weigh the two theories, then the creator will come out as the logical one, as there is no explenation for the finetuning in the universe. Even the multiple universes theory cannot explain it, as you still need a perfect start that creates these universes. It is calculated that it can never be formed through trial and error.
Plus, i also believe in evolution and formation, but what has this to do with God or not? The question is, what was the first mover. This can only be an intelligence.
As for us being part of God, without us having any real power, is because God decides how much power He gives us. He decides how much we are allowed to do. You think because we use His 'energy' we have the same power as Him? You forget that He created us, and the limits of how much power we have. Just like we can build a fast car or a slow car. God decides how much we can have. And there can be only one everything, so we can never be all-powerfull and all-wise, as only the one that encompasses all has this power. You cannot have 2 everythings, there can be only one unlimited conciousness.
Peace
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Peace enquirer,
You stated
if you think suffering is just an illusion,then i will leave you too it bro...That understanding is of little consolation to starving children is it? I cant seriously entertain people who are just avoiding and be-littling the existence of suffering as an illusion,in a vain attempt to glorify a concept of god,or their own personal beliefs.....Seems irresponsible....
Whoah whoah whoah...
What's with the attitude?Here's what I said, and apparently the only thing you felt worthy of replying to
Suffering and mischief is an illusion. It's like virtual reality. You put on the glasses and you see all this crap, and you do what you can to make things better. But eventually, it will be "game over", and you take the glasses off, and you're back to peace.
Your mind is temporary, your soul is eternal. I'm sorry if this nutshell isn't compassionate enough for you, but if I took the time to explain every facet of this understanding, I'd spend the rest of my life typing to you.
But now, since you've taken the liberty of assuming I am belittling suffering and vainly attempting to glorify God, please entertain this
Where does all perception take place?
Is it somewhere "out there", or is it in the arena of your own mind?However you decide to answer, or not, know that my position is that all perception takes place in the mind, and the mind is a temporary vehicle for this world only. There is no "out there". Does this mean I feel no compassion towards humanity? Of course not.
But your question wasn't about whether or not suffering exists. Your question was why would God allow it to exist. And as everyone has explained, you can't have part-time free-will. It's all or nothing, by definition, or it's not "free". A lifetime is not even a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity. This illusion of life and how we deal with it will be a speck of a memory, if at all, upon the next phase of existence.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace enquirer,
Please don't rush blaming the god for the starving children. In fact, the god has put on this earth enough food for everyone and even more, would you deny it?
The problem arises when some "civilized" people, abusing the free-will provided by the god, decide to put "imaginary" boundries to "imaginary" countries preventing humans from moving freely in the lands, looking for food when needed. And the irony in this situation is that the animals can migrate freely but not humans.
Would you still blame the god?