Translation of `Jinn`

CavemanDoctor

Peace phoenix

yes! or some other word. why not? the names serve a purpose, by leaving them untranslated, we are taking them out of the message, giving the readers just people with random names.
If you've read a novel, the names all mean something. They all describe the character or his/her situation. Names do serve a purpose in the story.

I gave the example of a name to show that certain things are normally not translated in the Qur'an. Not every single word in a translation is an originally English word.

there is a difference between trusting the intelligence of people and tricking them. You are tricking them by not giving them the whole translation. I don't doubt that some will research the topic but they will encounter the actual translation somewhere. So why not give it to them right from the start? why complicate the process? why make the readers more vulnarable to baseless interpretations?

I simply fail to see how leaving something in the original God-inspired Arabic is "tricking" someone. How is that trickery? And your point, I think, reinforces my point. Suppose someone does research and encounters an actual translation. I don't see how that is pointless. There is value in the process of realization itself; the answer is not the only thing that is important. I think your assumption is that the journey towards the truth itself isnt valuable; I disagree.

Again, translating the words only makes it easier for the reader to see the whole message. And recognize the allegories and the metaphors. People who want to learn what Jinn truly is will come accross the translation some time or another, why not just give it to them in the book where it belongs?
The quran is a book of tales, but all those tales have a meaning that teaches us important lessons.

I guess this goes at the very heart of the purpose of translating things. As I see it, translators of texts typically balance and weigh 3 factors 1) ease of language, accessibility, 2) accuracy, and 3) eloquence. Some translations are strong in some areas while weak in others (e.g. Khalifa may be more easy to understand, but is glaringly inaccurate at times) whereas Yusufali might be strongest in eloquence with its Old English style.

You seem to favor ease of reading. I understand that. That certainly plays a huge part. I, on the other hand, value accuracy over other factors. I say this because I am willing to go a translation that maybe is more dense or hard to understand but that compensates by giving a more accurate, fuller picture. In this case, when we have thread upon thread about what "jinn" means, why risk inaccuracy by restricting to one meaning? Leaving it untranslated may very well be the most "accurate" thing we can do at this point.

CavemanDoctor

Peace ayman

Peace CD, SC, all,

The word "jinn" is not a proper name (a label that is irrelevant and meaningless). It is a common noun.

I never said "jinn" was a proper name or a label. I simply used the example of Muhammad to show that certain words are, without controversy, left untranslated. E.g. proper names. I didn't mean to imply "jinn" was a proper name or a label; I apologize if it came across that way.

Actually not translating a common noun means that we are insulting the intelligence of the reader. It is the same exact thing that the media here in the US does when they insult the intelligence of the reader by not translating Arabic common nouns such as "jihad". Of course, translating it as "strive" would make the news more dull and mundane because there is nothing wrong with "striving" in the minds of the audience and indeed it carries a positive connotation in English as opposed to the meaningless label.

The jihad example is a good, but not fully accurate, one. From what I can glean, "jihad" can quite easily be translated as "strive" in every relevant occurence in the Qur'an. "Jinn," unless I'm missing something, isn't quite the same. Some think its a separate race of beings (I don't really align myself with such a belief), while some say its a description.

If you leave it untranslated it is fine as long as a note in braquets is put to indicate that it is not a proper name and should be translated but the translator doesn't know how to translate it. As you remarked, this will tell the reader that there is more research to be done. Translating it forces the translator and the reader to improve their understanding because if it is translated as X and this X doesn't fit well in some of the occurences then this will signal that we need a better meaning.

Peace,

Ayman

I actually agree with this. Leaving it untranslated with an attached bracket/footnote is ideal, imo. This way, the meaning is not restricted to the particular belief of the translator, and at the same time the reader is signaled that research needs to be done. To my mind, this would accomplish two things 1) it shows the reader that the translator is painfully honest and went to great lengths to leave the text as unfettered by his own personal preconceptions as possible, and 2) it shows the reader that the Qur'an is not some historical statute-book, chained to conceptions of the past, but rather is a dynamic force that consists of layer upon layer of information, a text that literally engages the reader and, through its very structure, lends itself to critical study and logical analysis.

Peace.

adley

Salaam all,

I actually agree with this. Leaving it untranslated with an attached bracket/footnote is ideal, imo.

Perhaps the footnote can be converted into some kind of section in the introductory chapter of The Message; that way, not every occurence of "jinn" needs a bracket or a footnote. Besides, the book will include an index section like the previous edition, will it not? Readers can just consult them to find all occurences of the word "jinn" and, by combining a little information from the introductory section, may conclude on her/his own.

Just a suggestion.

=adley=

savage_carrot

Peace,

I agree with the suggestions Caveman, bro Ayman and Adley gave. About the footnotes and maybe having a section as opposed to a bracket everywhere. It makes sense to me.

lovelymoslems

Jinn means hiden
Jinn means crazy.

Jinn is not metaphisic or not visible creature but men qualifies

Being high intelectuality (above 120)
Having crazy idea
3, Closed, private.

They may be

Men who lead nation with their own principles (thoghut/satan)
Men who lead people by Allah's order (prophets).
Scientist.

truth

Peace,

Just to clarify this issue for which soem discussion has taken place.

My personal preference is for energy beings as I understand Jinn to be real entities that share the Earth with mankind but were created much earlier from flames/fire.

Jinn are decendats of Satan (727)
Jinn we are told are good & bad (7211)
Jinn possess power/ability to exit the atmosphere of Earth (72
Jinn have human features such as hearts, eyes, ears (7179)
Jinn have physical powers not common to humans (2739)

I disagree about your erroneous conclusion about 'jinn' being able "to exit the atmosphere of Earth".

Look at

376 We have adorned the lowest heaven with adorning planets.*
377 We guarded it from every evil devil.
378 They cannot spy on the High Society; they get bombarded from every side.
379 They have been condemned; they have incurred an eternal retribution.
3710 If any of them ventures to charge the outer limits, he gets struck with a fierce projectile.

and...

5533 O you jinns and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the earth, go ahead and penetrate. You cannot penetrate without authorization.
5534 Which of your Lord's marvels can you deny?
5535 You get bombarded with projectiles of fire and metal, and you cannot win.

Notice that jinn and humans are mentioned together. The challenge is to penetrate the heavens - ie. leave the Earth's atmosphere which cannot be done. "Jinn" are human or an aspect of humans and the usages within the reading must be contextual; there doesn't seem to be a one meaning fits all for this particular concept.

Peace.

Alen

As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.

Jinn is hidden demon that we can't see.

As salamu alaykum.

Wakas

perhaps translating it as the same thing in every occurrence is one of the problems.

just a thought.

also, has anyone actually written an article on the occurrences of jinn and extracted all the additional information that comes with the occurrences? that would be handy.

adley

Salaam,

This is a list I compiled a while ago regarding Jim-Nun-Nun. So it's not all about "jinn" but "jannah" as well. I gotta go now. Perhaps I can clear it up after I get back.

ajinnatun -- 5332

aljinna / aljinni -- 6100,128,130; 738,179; 1850; 2717,39; 3412,14,41; 4125,29; 4618,29; 5156; 5533; 721,6

aljannatayni -- 1833; 5554

bijannatayhim -- 3416

bimajnuunin -- 682; 8122

jannun -- 2710; 2831; 5539,56,74

jannaatin -- 225; 315,195,198; 413,57,122; 512,65,85,119; 6141; 972,89,100; 109; 1323; 1423; 1545; 1631; 1831,107; 1961; 2076; 2214,23,56; 2319; 2510; 2657,147; 318; 3219; 3533; 3634; 3743; 3850; 408; 4425,52; 4712; 485,17; 509; 5115; 5217; 5454; 5612; 5712; 5822; 6112(2x); 649; 6511; 668; 6834; 7035; 7112; 7440; 8511; 988

jannatin / jannatun -- 2265,266; 7184; 1791; 2325,70; 258,15; 2685; 348,46; 5315; 5816; 632; 6922; 7038; 7612; 8810

jannataani -- 3415; 5546,62

jannataka -- 1839,40

jannatahu -- 1835

jannatii -- 8930

jannatayni -- 1832; 3416

janiyyan -- 1925

lamajnuunun -- 156; 2627; 6851

majnuunin -- 3736; 4414; 5139,52; 5229; 549

waljanna -- 1527

waljinni / waljinnu -- 6112; 1788; 725

wajanaa -- 5554

Take care.

=adley=

unknownuser

Jinn means hiden
Jinn means crazy.

Jinn is not metaphisic or not visible creature but men qualifies

Being high intelectuality (above 120)
Having crazy idea
3, Closed, private.

They may be

Men who lead nation with their own principles (thoghut/satan)
Men who lead people by Allah's order (prophets).
Scientist.

I second this Br's.

God Bless all.

TAJ

Jinn are intelligent nonphysical beings with super powers. And like humans, some are believers, others are not.

Tay

Peace Layth, all,

I voted to keep jinn untranslated, mostly because no definition offered by anyone thus far makes a perfect fit in every instance.

For example, those who think of jinn as invisible beings only, or emotions only, would have trouble explaining these occurrences

6100 And they made partners with God from among the Jinn, while He had created them. And they invented for Him sons and daughters without them having any knowledge! Be He glorified and far above what they describe.

"From among the jinn" confirms in certainty that one or more jinn were worshipped as partners with God. Yet we have no trace of evidence that determines who these people were nor what jinn they worshipped.

6128 And the Day we gather them all ?O tribes of Jinn, you have managed to take many humans.? Their supporters from the humans said ?Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us.? He said ?The Fire is your dwelling, in it you shall abide eternally, except as your Lord wishes.? Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.

What does this mean? That these invisible beings possessed people? That they killed people? That they deceived them?

In both instances, a "hidden" entity fits better, imo, then an invisible creature.
In 6100, this hidden entity could be anything from the forces of nature to ego. It does not fit, however, to conclude an invisible being is described because that would entail a human having some sort of contact with, and understanding of, this being.

In 6128, the "jinn" being talked about must be a secluded group of people, because in 6130, here is what we are told Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness on themselves that they were rejecters.

If these were invisible beings, what would the worldly life have to do with them? Also, if they were emotions, how could they be deceived by the wordly life?

2710 And throw down your staff.? So when he saw it vibrate as if it were a Jinn, he ran away and would not turn back. ?O Moses, do not fear, for My messengers shall have no fear from Me.?

Neither belief fits this context. Invisible beings don't vibrate visibly, nor do emotions.

Interestingly, this is how QXP exposits 2710...

'kaannaha jann' = as if it was a dragon, concerning the 'asa' or staff in (2710). Additional Tasreef (710, (2017-24), (2610-15), (2632-33), (2831-32)).

Now see the same story told in 2020

2020 So he cast it down, and it became a moving serpent!

So, in 2710 it was a "jinn" or dragon, and in 2020 it was a "haya" or snake.
Dragon= hidden mythical creature
Snake= hidden reptile

Conclusion jinn = "hidden" and can only be qualified by the context.

Peace,
Tay

phoenix1

peace Tay, all

so why not just translat "jinn" as "hidden?" and leave it at that?

Alen

peace Tay, all

so why not just translat "jinn" as "hidden?" and leave it at that?

As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.

Yeah, i mean, Jinn are hidden because they live in theri own sphere.
We know of them what is written in the Qur'an and that is that.

As salamu alaykum.

salgan

Peace ALL

Can Jinn be a name given to a tribe ?

Peace Salim

Tay

Peace Phoenix, Alen, Salim,

so why not just translat "jinn" as "hidden?" and leave it at that?

Because "hidden" by itself doesn't fit in all places. It is a past participle while "jinn" is a noun.

eg
7179. And We have committed to Hell many hidden and humans; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

Yeah, i mean, Jinn are hidden because they live in theri own sphere.
We know of them what is written in the Qur'an and that is that.

If they lived in their own sphere, then how exactly did people worship them as partners with God? How could they have worldly attachments per 6128? Also, please refer to 2710, where Moses thought the vibrating staff looked like a jinn. What does a jinn look like for Moses to make this reference? And when/where did he meet these jinn? And if he did meet them, why would he fear them, since the qur'an tells us that some jinn are believers and some are not. So what's to fear?

Can Jinn be a name given to a tribe ?

I suppose it's possible - but again, this would not fit all the contexts. We still have the smokeless fire, the fact that jinn are mentioned seperately from people, ie, "jinn and men", and most conclusive is 1526-27

And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
And the Jinn, We created him before that from the flames of fire.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

peace

also, has anyone actually written an article on the occurrences of jinn and extracted all the additional information that comes with the occurrences? that would be handy.

Actually I just finished doing this. I did this for information sake only. At times the verses are summarized and/or para-phrased. Also at times i only took out the meaning of the occurrence of the root, using the context. This is every occurance of jiim-noon-noon root that is relevant to the jinn creatures. I went into this as if no-one has told me what a jinn is. To be truthful, to be un-biased. I hope it's what you are looking for. And i hope people find this handy. I also provided at the end of every relevant verse the arabic word used. With/without a suffix/prefix.

676 - night (as in time) (janna)

1527- Jinns created from the flames of fire (janna)

5515- Jinn created from smokeless fire (janna)

5539- Day of resurrection neither jinns nor humans will be questioned.(jannun)

5556- In them ( the 2 paradises) are attendants with a splendid look, unknown before by
any human or Jinn.(jannun)

5574- No human has ever touched them(the companions), nor Jinn (jannun)

156- crazy/mad (lamajnoonun)

2627- mad/crazy (lamajnoonun)

3736- mad/crazy (majnoonin)

4414- crazy (majnoonun)

5139- crazy (majnoonun)

5152- crazy (majnoonun)

522- mad (majnoonin)

549- crazy (majnoonun)

682- madman (bimajnoonin)

6851- crazy (lamajnoonun)

8122- crazy (bimajnoonin)

5332- hidden (ajinnatun)

2710- snake (jannun)

2831- snake (jannun)

These set of occurrences refer to a tribe of jinns

6100- And they (mankind) made partners with God from among the Jinn, while He had created them.(aljinna)

6112- God permitted the enemies of every prophet.... Both men and jinns participitated
in inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception (aljinni)

6128- On the day of resurrection Jinns manage to take many humans. Humans confess enjoying their company with the jinns (aljinni).

6130- God asks jinns and humans whether they had received messengers from amongst them that warned them of judgement day. Both human and jiins bear witness upon themselves. (aljinni)

738- Humans and jinns already in the fire as more are gathered into Hell.(aljinni )

7179- Committed to hell are Both humans and jinns who have hearts, ears, and eyes which they didn't use. "They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones." (aljinni)

1788- If both humans and jinns decided to create a new quran; they couldn't, even if they were helping each other (waaljinnu)

1850- God said to the angels to submit to Adam. They all did, except Satan who was of the Jinns so he disobeyed the Lord. "Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy?" Miserable for the wicked is the substitute! (aljinni)

1851- "I did not make them witness the creation of heavens and Earth, nor the creation of themselves. Nor do I take the misleaders as helpers." (n/a)

271-, Solomon's soldiers comprising of humans and Jinn and birds (aljinni)

2739- A powerful being from among the Jinn said "I will bring it (Sheba's throne/mansion) to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."( jinni)

3412- "And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him by his Lord's leave; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire."( jinni)

3414- Death is decreed for Solomon. The jinns didn't realize it until Solomon's body fell down." the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution." ( jinnu)

3440- God will ask the Angels if the humans worshipped them. (N/A)

3441- They (angels) will Say "Be You glorified. You are our Lord, not them. No, most of them were worshiping the Jinn; most were believers to them." ( jinna)

4125- God assigns for humans companions who adorn their past and future actions. The punishment is deserved just like the previous nations of jinns and humans.( jinni)

4129- The rejectors (on day of judgement) will ask God to show them the humans and jinns who misled them to seek revenge( jinni)

4618- These are the ones(rejecters; specifically past 40 yrs old) against whom the retribution has been deserved in nations who had come before them of humans and Jinn; they are the losers. ( jinni)

4629- And We sent to you a small number of Jinn, in order to let them listen to the Quran. So when they arrived there, they said "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them. ( jinni)

5156- "I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to serve Me." ( jinna)

5533- "O tribes of Jinn and humans, if you can penetrate the outer limits of the heavens and the Earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without authority." ( jinni )

721- Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent compilation!" ( jinni)

725- "And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God." (jinnu)

726- Mankind used to seek help thru jinns but they only helped them increase in sin.(jinni)

11119- I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the humans together! (Aljinnati) NOTE Read the previous verse to understand the context of this.

3213- If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together. (Aljinnati)

37158- And they invented a kinship between Him and the Jinn. But the Jinn know that they will be gathered. (example given in previous verses That God has begotten a son etc...)

1141-6- God advises us to seek refuge in him from evils of sneaking whisperers among the humans AND Jinns. (aljinnati)

7184- Madness/being possessed/being possessed/crazy (jinnatin)

2325- Madness/being possessed/crazy (jinnatun)

2370- Madness/being possessed/crazy (jinnatun)

348- Madness/being possessed/crazy (jinnatun)

3446- Madness/being possessed/crazy (jinnatin)

These are jinn sayings from chapter/surah 72 that gives more information about them

724 "And it was the foolish one amongst us who used to say lies about God."

725 "And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God."

728 "And we touched the heavens, but found it full of powerful guards and projectiles."

729 "And we used to sit in it in places of listening, but anyone who sits now finds a projectile seeking him."

7210 "And we do not know, is it bad that is intended for those on Earth, or does their Lord want them to be guided?"

7211 "And among us are those who are good doers, and some of us are opposite to that, we are in many paths."

7212 "And we acknowledge that we cannot escape God on Earth, nor can we escape Him if we run."

7213 "And when we heard the guidance, we believed in it. So whoever believes in his Lord, then he will not fear a decrease in reward, nor a burdensome punishment."

7214 "And among us are those who surrendered, and among us are the compromisers. As for those who have surrendered, they have sought what is correct."

The following are not Jinn quotes

7215 And as for the compromisers, they are firewood for Hell.

7216 And had they walked on the right path, We would have provided them with abundant water.

7217 To test them with it. And whosoever turns away from the remembrance of his Lord, He will enter him a severe retribution.

EDIT NOTE Edited for readability and added more content at the end..

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I'll post my article when i get home. I didn't wanted to post it yet, as it is a work in progress, but maybe it helps a bit on getting a bigger picture on the whole. And imran, did you change your opinion and agree now that it depends on the context what jinn refers to?

unknownuser

peace arnold

And imran, did you change your opinion and agree now that it depends on the context what jinn refers to?

what do you mean exactly? For starters I disagree that jinns must be translated EVERY time. When referring to BEINGS it's definitely a proper name. They are referred to as al-jinn(or a derivative thereof) or The jinns. I don't understand how it can be a common noun while it's written that way. If you are going to use this tehcnique than you must also do the same with 'insaan' and translate it every time.

unknownuser

peace

on this related subject see also this thread

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6081.msg93470#msg93470